And so it begins...

[asonimie]

well. I have to agree with Ellay again. Any 4 melees can kill. It is what makes you survive that is important. If 4 rogues can survive as well as paladins. Then It is good.

You have to stop the other team from instantly kill one of your guys. I have some questions as how to survive as rogues. We all know stun rog = dead rog since you can't pop anything while stunned. And you can't dodge while being hit from behind. I have played a fair amount of 5 v 5 on shamans by myself (no seperate healer) and I know 5 v 4 is certainly not the only situation you will face after you instantly kill someone. More often for me, it becomes 4 v 4, and 3 v 3. And worse, 4 v 3, where I have 4 and they have 3, I still lose. Because I lost my abilities to instantly kill someone with 1 fewer dps. and they just out last my mana to kill me.

The point here is surivial. Imagine the case where a warlock shadow fury all 4 rogues, shamans and paladins are more likely to see the end of that stun. Rogues, i don't know. And it is very likely 4 melees not gonna get a instant kill on the first target either. If your target is BOPed, you have a choice of poping COS + envasion or not. If you don't, you are running the risk of getting stunned and die. If you do, you have to run to your second target. After you drop this target, and now your COS on CD, how do you kill your next target. Not saying rogues won't work, just some concerns that I have. Plus, I bet 4 rogues are more fun than 4 paladins anyway.

For paladins, it is all the same. Just run around and spam that 1 button (click macro) attack while sacred shield on + instant flash heal. And 1DK + 3 paladin > 4 paladins to solve the snare problem.

Interesting viewpoint, and yes defense is important - but I don't agree that it's the only difference. You're overlooking many benefits rogues have over paladins. And yes, go watch the video footage to see how fast 4 rogues CAN kill a target. Another thing I think people are mis-evaluating - burst, the rogues I played on PTR aren't a cooldown based killing team... just the opposite. I didn't use any cooldowns to kill people, just steady mutilate DPS. My point is, their dps and ability to kill someone doesn't go down after the opener.. they kill just as fast after 1 minute of fighting as when they started.

I also noticed a huge difference over my shamans. On my shaman team, if I lost a shaman it became almost impossible to kill anyone. Why? not enough dps and no MS. On PTR there were many many times where 1 rogue was dead or feared, and I kept attacking with the other 3... and to be honest the DPS wasn't much different, they still 3 shotted enemies. These few reasons are what make me excited about the team.

[Mosg2]

I really, really, really, really, really don't want to run a mixed team in 5's. Whether that means 1 DK and 4 Rets or 1 DK and 3 Rets plus a healer, I really am hesitant.

In any case, I'm going to keep pushing on with the 4 Rets and a healer. I'll definitely fraps my arena games this week.

[remanz]

On PTR there were many many times where 1 rogue was dead or feared, and I kept attacking with the other 3... and to be honest the DPS wasn't much different, they still 3 shotted enemies.

Asonimie nailed it. this is my biggest concern really. Trading bodies and you can still win. I don't expect rogs can out last. And I have no doubt in rogs lock down and killing abilities either. But since you can kill with 1 of guys dead. Then it is definitely viable.

[remanz]

I really, really, really, really, really don't want to run a mixed team in 5's. Whether that means 1 DK and 4 Rets or 1 DK and 3 Rets plus a healer, I really am hesitant.

In any case, I'm going to keep pushing on with the 4 Rets and a healer. I'll definitely fraps my arena games this week.

I should've said this up front. What we have talked about here is just purely theory crafting kinda discussion. Don't let what we said here affect your decisions. Play whatever combos you fill like. You spend a lot of time and effort leveling them. They deserve more playing time. Maybe you can work out some nifty repentance/HOJ CC rotation to kill your targets. It is good that you have the option. 4 rets or dk + 3 rets, you can simply switch.

[thinus]

Rogues are vulnerable to kiting and AoE CC. Once Cloak of Shadows and your trinket is on cooldown ranged classes are going to laugh at you.

[remanz]

Rogues are vulnerable to kiting and AoE CC. Once Cloak of Shadows and your trinket is on cooldown ranged classes are going to laugh at you.

good frost mages might be problematic. Frost mages to melees are like warlocks to shaman. You can't kill him and he can AOE CC you. 2nd biggest threat is hunter. The rest of the cast are pretty much easy kills for rogues.

[thinus]

good frost mages might be problematic. Frost mages to melees are like warlocks to shaman. You can't kill him and he can AOE CC you. 2nd biggest threat is hunter. The rest of the cast are pretty much easy kills for rogues.

Warlocks, priests and warriors with AoE fears can also ruin your day.

A human warlock with paranoia will *really* ruin your day.

EDIT: I keep feeling you need shadow step. You are going to need to close distance fast when out of stealth.

[remanz]

Warlocks, priests and warriors with AoE fears can also ruin your day.

A human warlock with paranoia will *really* ruin your day.

EDIT: I keep feeling you need shadow step. You are going to need to close distance fast when out of stealth.

I don't think paranoia is in game anymore. They removed it. Those AOE fearers. Rogues can just open with stun or silence. By the time the stun/ silence wears off , the target should be dead. Rogues can FOK AOE snare once out of stealth. So I don't see kiting as much of a problem unless you are a mage or hunter.

[Mosg2]

I'm not so sure about that Thinus. You're going to be able to gib whichever target is the most dangerous coming out of stealth. With Sprint, Evasion, and CoS you should be able to get a second target pretty easily too. 5v3 is a good prospect

[remanz]

Hmm. it just occur to me that with the power of interact with target. You can sap/open attack on multiple targets if there are no obstacles in between. You don't have to worry about facing and following. So this really opens up a lot of things.


Same thing for you Mosg2 You can do a two macros: 1. "target arena1" 2. "/cast [target=arena1] repentance".

Then you go macro1 => Interact with target (will face the target) => macro 2 . This will CC him. Do this for arena1,2,3,4. You basically CC 4 guys. Even if they trinket, actually you want them to trinket, then you HOJ, no escape.

Also you've seen how fast Asonimie's rogs can kill. That's with gear on PTR. With the same level of gears, retribution should kill just as fast if not faster. After all, retdin ain't called "burst king" for nothing (don't quote me on this lol, i read it on paladin forums)