And so it begins...

My 4x Ret team hit 80 last night after 6 days and 22 hours of non-RAF work. I was able to grind out ~405 Engineering for all of them during the 60's and I worked up enough honor to get them the epic shoulders while leveling but other than that they're in full crafted pvp gear with Titansteel Destroyers. I hit 80 towards midnight so I was unable to get any 5's going last night but that's on my to do list so I get points this week.

I'm really excited to see how they do in arenas. I did one late-night AV match as soon as they hit 80 just to test them out and... Wow. The difference the pvp gear and Titansteel Destroyers makes is ridiculous. They just melt through whatever they touch. I've gotten half a dozen people who got rolled log into their alts and hate tell me haha.

My DK was already fairly well geared for tanking and dps so I plan on grinding out a quick 19 Badges for the Divine Storm relic tonight and waiting for 3.3 to grind out the rest of the badges for the +hit/click-for-ap trinket. After that's done I think I'm going to be in AV for the next two weeks grinding honor.

My intention is to Fraps all of my arena matches and share each week so that everyone can comment, learn, and make suggestions.

Anyways, I just kind of wanted to... Share? :) Where is everyone else at in regards to their Ret teams? Anyone have any tips for gearing up?

I haven't even bothered with pvp yet with my team :P I might gear them, cause I'm soon running out of gear to get pve wise :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

My 4x Ret team hit 80 last night after 6 days and 22 hours of non-RAF work. I was able to grind out ~405 Engineering for all of them during the 60's and I worked up enough honor to get them the epic shoulders while leveling but other than that they're in full crafted pvp gear with Titansteel Destroyers. I hit 80 towards midnight so I was unable to get any 5's going last night but that's on my to do list so I get points this week.

I'm really excited to see how they do in arenas. I did one late-night AV match as soon as they hit 80 just to test them out and... Wow. The difference the pvp gear and Titansteel Destroyers makes is ridiculous. They just melt through whatever they touch. I've gotten half a dozen people who got rolled log into their alts and hate tell me haha.

My DK was already fairly well geared for tanking and dps so I plan on grinding out a quick 19 Badges for the Divine Storm relic tonight and waiting for 3.3 to grind out the rest of the badges for the +hit/click-for-ap trinket. After that's done I think I'm going to be in AV for the next two weeks grinding honor.

My intention is to Fraps all of my arena matches and share each week so that everyone can comment, learn, and make suggestions.

Anyways, I just kind of wanted to... Share? :) Where is everyone else at in regards to their Ret teams? Anyone have any tips for gearing up?

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Gratz and thanks for the future videos... someone should have shown us ret arena by now <cough>.

My rogues are 60 with about 1.6 days played no RAF, but that includes a LOT of afk time at SM waiting for instance lockouts. It hasn't been too bad. Any secrets for 60-70 and 70-80? Let me know where you ground those out :)

Best of luck!

just one question..
how are you leveling without RAF? like in terms of what you are doing? quests instances?
im planning on leveling 4-5 druids without RAF :( wondering to be honest how much it takes because after 60 it doesnt madder.. so it might be a matter of a day of playing.
thanks so much, srry for topic change

For me, I've been straight instance boosting with prot pally.

1-10: quest/kills
10-20: SFK
20-40: SM Cath
40-45: BRD
45-55: Strat, Market square area (without banshees and spiders)
55-60ish: Ramps

You're looking at about 30-35 hours to hit 60. Thats what it took me, just average pace.

I have a geared 80 DK so I used him to boost from 10-60. Here's the skinny:

1-10 Questing: This was the most painful part.
10-20 SFK: You can plop your power levelees at the entrance and clear the entire instance and they'll get all of the xp.
20-35 SM: With my DK I can clear all of Cath, Arm, and library in about ~13 minutes.
35-45 ZF: You can run your guys to the first junction where you can go left or right and leave them there. They'll get xp for the rest of the instance no problem.
45-55 LBRS: I love LBRS. The mob density is what makes me love it so much.
55-60 Ramparts: I usually spec my levelees healing along the way and they touch my tank up.

With RAF and a Warlock setup to summon so as to not get an excess of traveling time /played, I can do 1-60 in about 7-8 hours. Obviously it's three times as long without RAF :/

At 60 I just took them to Outlands and started questing. With everyone having flying it goes super fast. Maybe 1.5 to 2 hours per level. As soon as I dinged 68 I took the team to Northrend. I did quests and geared them up until 70 and then spent ALL of 71 getting them Ingvar's Monolithic Cleavers lol. It was ridiculous. I got three in like 5 runs and then spent THE REST OF THE LEVEL getting the last one.

Once they hit 71 and had Northrend greens/blues in all slots I started que'ing for AV. With AV and the level done in UK I hit 77 in Zul'Drak. 77-80 took about 5 hours per level. I didn't que for AV at all because the honor gain in the 70-79 bracket doesn't compensate time-wise for how much faster you'll level with epic flying doing quests.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

I have a geared 80 DK so I used him to boost from 10-60. Here's the skinny:

1-10 Questing: This was the most painful part.
10-20 SFK: You can plop your power levelees at the entrance and clear the entire instance and they'll get all of the xp.
20-35 SM: With my DK I can clear all of Cath, Arm, and library in about ~13 minutes.
35-45 ZF: You can run your guys to the first junction where you can go left or right and leave them there. They'll get xp for the rest of the instance no problem.
45-55 LBRS: I love LBRS. The mob density is what makes me love it so much.
55-60 Ramparts: I usually spec my levelees healing along the way and they touch my tank up.

With RAF and a Warlock setup to summon so as to not get an excess of traveling time /played, I can do 1-60 in about 7-8 hours. Obviously it's three times as long without RAF :/

At 60 I just took them to Outlands and started questing. With everyone having flying it goes super fast. Maybe 1.5 to 2 hours per level. As soon as I dinged 68 I took the team to Northrend. I did quests and geared them up until 70 and then spent ALL of 71 getting them Ingvar's Monolithic Cleavers lol. It was ridiculous. I got three in like 5 runs and then spent THE REST OF THE LEVEL getting the last one.

Once they hit 71 and had Northrend greens/blues in all slots I started que'ing for AV. With AV and the level done in UK I hit 77 in Zul'Drak. 77-80 took about 5 hours per level. I didn't que for AV at all because the honor gain in the 70-79 bracket doesn't compensate time-wise for how much faster you'll level with epic flying doing quests.

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Thanks! I'll have to try LBRS next time.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

At 60 I just took them to Outlands and started questing. With everyone having flying it goes super fast. Maybe 1.5 to 2 hours per level.

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Very informative, thanks. Though 2 additional questions:

- Is there a special set of quest/guide/chain you follow?
- Is that kill/escort quests only or do you do collection quests as well?

I'd love one day to see a quest plan specific for multiboxing from 60-80.

I generally speaking skip every collection quest except the ones I know lead to a good chain. Period. Having the DK means I can always grind half a level in an instance quickly if need be instead of dicking around with shitty collection quests :)

Alliance side, the Kopp quest stacking guide is fairly decent for Outland.
I hate to recommend his guide, since he reneged on his promise of lifetime free upgrades to wow.

Still, 60-70 quest stacking results in dinging 70th somewhere in Blades Edge Mountains.
There are a few collection chains, but nothing overly painful.

With a booster, go:
Ramparts to 60.
Underbog to 66.
Black Morass to 70 (but don't start the event).

There might be a better boosting option, but that worked.

Update:

I played 10 games and lost 8 of them. The other teams left for the two that we did win. I was having hardware issues for the first 9 games since I'd just bought a new mouse and keyboard last night. The 10th game I was able to work them out prior and it went quite smoothly--It was an issue of gear, comp, and experience vice hardware :) After some AV later in the evening I'm 100% positive that 4x Paladin and a separate healer is going to be the nuts.

Pro Tip(s):
1. Do honor grind Alliance side. <1 ques, 8-9 minute AV wins. It's ridiculous.

My plan for today once the servers come back up is to solo MC and BWL while waiting in the AV que. I think I want to get a bit more of the pvp gear before I go grind out the 19 badges for the Libram.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

After some AV later in the evening I'm 100% positive that 4x Paladin and a separate healer is going to be the nuts.

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I need some inspiration to keep me from going insane from boosting my 4 paladins. In details, what makes you think they are going to be nuts. Don't tell me you kill a warlock within HOJ stun in a 4 x 1 situation. I wanna hear you took down 10 players after you bubble heal back to full :P

HoF+Art of War+Plate+Sacred Shield=Grim Reaper.

No target lasts more than 4-5 seconds in melee with me, and I'm still in blues. When 3.3 hits and all your Pallies can do a few hours of questing for a 250 dps 2h sword, it's going to be *ridiculous*.

hey Mosg2, did i fight you tonight in arena? 4 ele shamans and a holy pally. dominantbull and the herd.

Are you running 4 Rets and no 5th?

outdrsyguy1: No, I did no arenas last night. I did them all Monday night and I remember no other multiboxing team :)

Ellay: Yes. For my arena matches I brought in a healer. My DK was already 80 and geared fairly well but I hate mixed teams in pvp with a passion. I just run 4x and when I have time for heroics the DK will tank for me.

I've got to tell you, Asinomie's Rogue video is very inspiring for me. The most frustrating part about the Rets is that you have no snare. Yeah, I know you're thinking "But you've got HoF and Bubble and Trinket and 4x HoJ and innate run speed and Cleanse" etc. I'm with you. But.

Without snare the easist way for someone to kill you is to just run in the other direction. HoJ works but it's still got a limited range and you've only got 4 every minute. In BG's the targets who want to kite you are more numerous than that :)

I'm really starting to think that Rogues might be even more viable in arenas than 4x plus a healer. I didn't record my arena games last week but this week I'll definitely be doing it. I should be getting another two or three pieces of gear between now and then, so we'll see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

outdrsyguy1: No, I did no arenas last night. I did them all Monday night and I remember no other multiboxing team :)

Ellay: Yes. For my arena matches I brought in a healer. My DK was already 80 and geared fairly well but I hate mixed teams in pvp with a passion. I just run 4x and when I have time for heroics the DK will tank for me.

I've got to tell you, Asinomie's Rogue video is very inspiring for me. The most frustrating part about the Rets is that you have no snare. Yeah, I know you're thinking "But you've got HoF and Bubble and Trinket and 4x HoJ and innate run speed and Cleanse" etc. I'm with you. But.

Without snare the easist way for someone to kill you is to just run in the other direction. HoJ works but it's still got a limited range and you've only got 4 every minute. In BG's the targets who want to kite you are more numerous than that :)

I'm really starting to think that Rogues might be even more viable in arenas than 4x plus a healer. I didn't record my arena games last week but this week I'll definitely be doing it. I should be getting another two or three pieces of gear between now and then, so we'll see how it goes.

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This was a lot of my reasoning for what I'm doing. I played both sets of premades, and the rogues just felt far more "in control" of the battle. Since single target damage was very similar, to me the choice was clear. You will all have immediate movies when I hit 80, hopefully it works out. Only time will tell.

My overall impression is this:

When you're boxing in arenas your whole goal is to gib as many targets as you can before the other team can respond. Once it's 5v4 or 5v3 you can leverage your more efficient assist train into killing the rest of them. Generally speaking, active healing by the boxer doesn't happen during the gib. So with that in mind, here's why I think Rogues may be even better than a 4x Ret setup in order of importance:

1. I think Rogues are more likely than the Paladins to get a guaranteed gib on the initial target regardless of class/spec considerations. Stealth means you're much more likely to be able to open on the target you want without them being able to interfere and poisons means even if someone can survive through 8x Mutilates in one GCD (initial click, one second gcd, then 4 more coming at you) there's no way a healer can save them. With the Ret's they know in advance who you're going to attack and they can see you rush them so they can prepare/interfere.

2. Post-stealth, Rogue's defensive cooldowns are superior than Paladin's. With CoS, Sprint, and Evasion Rogues give up no damage potential while basically invulnerable whereas Paladins are giving up a significant portion of total output.

3. The healing potential of Paladins is in my opinion a non-factor. If you got your initial gib off with either team, then you're at an immediate advantage and both teams should be able to win the 5v4. Paladins will heal up and chase down the remainder while Rogues will either pop defensive cooldowns and try and hit target number 2 or if possible vanish and gib another target.

The only thing that makes it difficult for me is that a tank+4 rogues isn't a really viable pve comp :) Not germaine to the conversation though!

That's the whole purpose of why a DK makes the 4 Rets shine though, it guarantees the target is stuck to them no matter what. With ranged snares, melee snares that are undispellable and a pull every 25 seconds.

The biggest drawback to the rogue is that they are insanely squishy. I'm glad others enjoy them and think they are awesome though :)

At the end of the day 4 rets with full gear should be dropping a target in 2 globals as well.

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Originally Posted by Ellay

That's the whole purpose of why a DK makes the 4 Rets shine though, it guarantees the target is stuck to them no matter what. With ranged snares, melee snares that are undispellable and a pull every 25 seconds.

The biggest drawback to the rogue is that they are insanely squishy. I'm glad others enjoy them and think they are awesome though :)

At the end of the day 4 rets with full gear should be dropping a target in 2 globals as well.

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well. I have to agree with Ellay again. Any 4 melees can kill. It is what makes you survive that is important. If 4 rogues can survive as well as paladins. Then It is good.

You have to stop the other team from instantly kill one of your guys. I have some questions as how to survive as rogues. We all know stun rog = dead rog since you can't pop anything while stunned. And you can't dodge while being hit from behind. I have played a fair amount of 5 v 5 on shamans by myself (no seperate healer) and I know 5 v 4 is certainly not the only situation you will face after you instantly kill someone. More often for me, it becomes 4 v 4, and 3 v 3. And worse, 4 v 3, where I have 4 and they have 3, I still lose. Because I lost my abilities to instantly kill someone with 1 fewer dps. and they just out last my mana to kill me.

The point here is surivial. Imagine the case where a warlock shadow fury all 4 rogues, shamans and paladins are more likely to see the end of that stun. Rogues, i don't know. And it is very likely 4 melees not gonna get a instant kill on the first target either. If your target is BOPed, you have a choice of poping COS + envasion or not. If you don't, you are running the risk of getting stunned and die. If you do, you have to run to your second target. After you drop this target, and now your COS on CD, how do you kill your next target. Not saying rogues won't work, just some concerns that I have. Plus, I bet 4 rogues are more fun than 4 paladins anyway.

For paladins, it is all the same. Just run around and spam that 1 button (click macro) attack while sacred shield on + instant flash heal. And 1DK + 3 paladin > 4 paladins to solve the snare problem.

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Originally Posted by remanz

well. I have to agree with Ellay again. Any 4 melees can kill. It is what makes you survive that is important. If 4 rogues can survive as well as paladins. Then It is good.

You have to stop the other team from instantly kill one of your guys. I have some questions as how to survive as rogues. We all know stun rog = dead rog since you can't pop anything while stunned. And you can't dodge while being hit from behind. I have played a fair amount of 5 v 5 on shamans by myself (no seperate healer) and I know 5 v 4 is certainly not the only situation you will face after you instantly kill someone. More often for me, it becomes 4 v 4, and 3 v 3. And worse, 4 v 3, where I have 4 and they have 3, I still lose. Because I lost my abilities to instantly kill someone with 1 fewer dps. and they just out last my mana to kill me.

The point here is surivial. Imagine the case where a warlock shadow fury all 4 rogues, shamans and paladins are more likely to see the end of that stun. Rogues, i don't know. And it is very likely 4 melees not gonna get a instant kill on the first target either. If your target is BOPed, you have a choice of poping COS + envasion or not. If you don't, you are running the risk of getting stunned and die. If you do, you have to run to your second target. After you drop this target, and now your COS on CD, how do you kill your next target. Not saying rogues won't work, just some concerns that I have. Plus, I bet 4 rogues are more fun than 4 paladins anyway.

For paladins, it is all the same. Just run around and spam that 1 button (click macro) attack while sacred shield on + instant flash heal. And 1DK + 3 paladin > 4 paladins to solve the snare problem.

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Interesting viewpoint, and yes defense is important - but I don't agree that it's the only difference. You're overlooking many benefits rogues have over paladins. And yes, go watch the video footage to see how fast 4 rogues CAN kill a target. Another thing I think people are mis-evaluating - burst, the rogues I played on PTR aren't a cooldown based killing team... just the opposite. I didn't use any cooldowns to kill people, just steady mutilate DPS. My point is, their dps and ability to kill someone doesn't go down after the opener.. they kill just as fast after 1 minute of fighting as when they started.

I also noticed a huge difference over my shamans. On my shaman team, if I lost a shaman it became almost impossible to kill anyone. Why? not enough dps and no MS. On PTR there were many many times where 1 rogue was dead or feared, and I kept attacking with the other 3... and to be honest the DPS wasn't much different, they still 3 shotted enemies. These few reasons are what make me excited about the team.

I really, really, really, really, really don't want to run a mixed team in 5's. Whether that means 1 DK and 4 Rets or 1 DK and 3 Rets plus a healer, I really am hesitant.

In any case, I'm going to keep pushing on with the 4 Rets and a healer. I'll definitely fraps my arena games this week.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asonimie

On PTR there were many many times where 1 rogue was dead or feared, and I kept attacking with the other 3... and to be honest the DPS wasn't much different, they still 3 shotted enemies.

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Asonimie nailed it. this is my biggest concern really. Trading bodies and you can still win. I don't expect rogs can out last. And I have no doubt in rogs lock down and killing abilities either. But since you can kill with 1 of guys dead. Then it is definitely viable.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

I really, really, really, really, really don't want to run a mixed team in 5's. Whether that means 1 DK and 4 Rets or 1 DK and 3 Rets plus a healer, I really am hesitant.

In any case, I'm going to keep pushing on with the 4 Rets and a healer. I'll definitely fraps my arena games this week.

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I should've said this up front. What we have talked about here is just purely theory crafting kinda discussion. Don't let what we said here affect your decisions. Play whatever combos you fill like. You spend a lot of time and effort leveling them. They deserve more playing time. Maybe you can work out some nifty repentance/HOJ CC rotation to kill your targets. It is good that you have the option. 4 rets or dk + 3 rets, you can simply switch.

Rogues are vulnerable to kiting and AoE CC. Once Cloak of Shadows and your trinket is on cooldown ranged classes are going to laugh at you.

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Originally Posted by thinus

Rogues are vulnerable to kiting and AoE CC. Once Cloak of Shadows and your trinket is on cooldown ranged classes are going to laugh at you.

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good frost mages might be problematic. Frost mages to melees are like warlocks to shaman. You can't kill him and he can AOE CC you. 2nd biggest threat is hunter. The rest of the cast are pretty much easy kills for rogues.

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Originally Posted by remanz

good frost mages might be problematic. Frost mages to melees are like warlocks to shaman. You can't kill him and he can AOE CC you. 2nd biggest threat is hunter. The rest of the cast are pretty much easy kills for rogues.

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Warlocks, priests and warriors with AoE fears can also ruin your day.

A human warlock with paranoia will *really* ruin your day.

EDIT: I keep feeling you need shadow step. You are going to need to close distance fast when out of stealth.

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Originally Posted by thinus

Warlocks, priests and warriors with AoE fears can also ruin your day.

A human warlock with paranoia will *really* ruin your day.

EDIT: I keep feeling you need shadow step. You are going to need to close distance fast when out of stealth.

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I don't think paranoia is in game anymore. They removed it. Those AOE fearers. Rogues can just open with stun or silence. By the time the stun/ silence wears off , the target should be dead. Rogues can FOK AOE snare once out of stealth. So I don't see kiting as much of a problem unless you are a mage or hunter.

I'm not so sure about that Thinus. You're going to be able to gib whichever target is the most dangerous coming out of stealth. With Sprint, Evasion, and CoS you should be able to get a second target pretty easily too. 5v3 is a good prospect :)

Hmm. it just occur to me that with the power of interact with target. You can sap/open attack on multiple targets if there are no obstacles in between. You don't have to worry about facing and following. So this really opens up a lot of things.


Same thing for you Mosg2 :) You can do a two macros: 1. "target arena1" 2. "/cast [target=arena1] repentance".

Then you go macro1 => Interact with target (will face the target) => macro 2 . This will CC him. Do this for arena1,2,3,4. You basically CC 4 guys. Even if they trinket, actually you want them to trinket, then you HOJ, no escape.

Also you've seen how fast Asonimie's rogs can kill. That's with gear on PTR. With the same level of gears, retribution should kill just as fast if not faster. After all, retdin ain't called "burst king" for nothing (don't quote me on this lol, i read it on paladin forums)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by remanz

I don't think paranoia is in game anymore. They removed it. Those AOE fearers. Rogues can just open with stun or silence. By the time the stun/ silence wears off , the target should be dead. Rogues can FOK AOE snare once out of stealth. So I don't see kiting as much of a problem unless you are a mage or hunter.

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OMFG! They removed paranoia? I might have to resurrect my rogue again.

You are only silencing / stunning one target. There are 4 other players that have free license on you when you are out of stealth. If you didn't open on the Arms Warrior (and there is always 1 if not 2) then expect a Charge + Bladestorm + Demo/Intimidating Shout.

Is Vanish more reliable now? Will you be able to get back into stealth with a bladestorming warrior in the middle of your group?

And bleeds cannot be removed right? So kitty, bear and warrior bleeds will negate stealth on that char.

As for AoE snare, poisons can be removed. If travel form still breaks moving impairing effects then you are going to have a really hard time catching a druid.

Paranoia is still in game. Voidwalker pet ability now, and it only lasts about 5 seconds and is channeled in place. Range isnt that great either.

Snares that scare a ret team are not a big issue for rogues. 5-6 abilities that break spell/snare, coupled with sprint and cloak = lightning speed killing blurs. Only thing I'm using trinket on is the initial fear, the rest can be managed. Not to mention 10 second disarm on demand and blinds help a lot.

Theorycrafting is theorycrafting, and we've come up with multiple good arguments on paper the last few days. Thats why I actually tested it, because in game experience > theorycrafting, and on PTR people were dropping like flies, whether they tried to snare me or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asonimie

Paranoia is still in game. Voidwalker pet ability now, and it only lasts about 5 seconds and is channeled in place. Range isnt that great either.

Snares that scare a ret team are not a big issue for rogues. 5-6 abilities that break spell/snare, coupled with sprint and cloak = lightning speed killing blurs. Only thing I'm using trinket on is the initial fear, the rest can be managed. Not to mention 10 second disarm on demand and blinds help a lot.

Theorycrafting is theorycrafting, and we've come up with multiple good arguments on paper the last few days. Thats why I actually tested it, because in game experience > theorycrafting, and on PTR people were dropping like flies, whether they tried to snare me or not.

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Cool. I know the game is a different beast now. I am just having flashbacks to all the problems I had to cope with on a 100K+ HK rogue I played for a long time.

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Originally Posted by thinus

As for AoE snare, poisons can be removed. If travel form still breaks moving impairing effects then you are going to have a really hard time catching a druid.

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Even druids can't escape the rogues, constant reapplication of poisons + 15% movement speed buff + server response time = you will immediately get another poison. Also... the druids who have tried going travel form on me have died in 1 hit. Shit trees with all their armor die in 2 hits. Druids pose no threat to 4 rogues... they can rarely escape 1 good rogue.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thinus

OMFG! They removed paranoia? I might have to resurrect my rogue again.

You are only silencing / stunning one target. There are 4 other players that have free license on you when you are out of stealth. If you didn't open on the Arms Warrior (and there is always 1 if not 2) then expect a Charge + Bladestorm + Demo/Intimidating Shout.

Is Vanish more reliable now? Will you be able to get back into stealth with a bladestorming warrior in the middle of your group?

And bleeds cannot be removed right? So kitty, bear and warrior bleeds will negate stealth on that char.

As for AoE snare, poisons can be removed. If travel form still breaks moving impairing effects then you are going to have a really hard time catching a druid.

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I call asonimie to answer those questions regarding melees lol. Kudos for him for pioneering the rogues. To be honest, I didn't think it would work at first. But hey, no one thought melees would work to begin with and yet we've seen what paladins can do.

I would guess he probably doesn't rely on restealth to kill. Once out of stealth, he is going to meatie his targets toe-to-toe fashion. He drops the them before they can drop him hopefully.