4x DK + Healer vs. Dk + 4x ret

[Shodokan]

Unholy
Scourge strike: Now 100% weapon damage + 624 + 12% increase per disease Costs 1 unholy rune
Vicious Strikes: Extra 6% crit + 30% extra crit damage
Resiliant infection: Basic use is that dispelled diseases spread with pestilence will refresh runes (faster dps!)
Necrosis: extra 30% damage of all autoattack is shadow damage
Unholy frenzy: Basically wings for dks but lose health while in it
Corrupting strike: 30% extra damage for scourge strike
Desecration: AOE 50% slow, AOE hamstring
Sudden doom: Extra damage from random proc for free
Anti-Magic Zone: Anti-caster
Summon Gargoyle: More burst
Ebonic Plague: Disease #3 which increases disease damage by 30%
Pet stun + annoying damage on healers

Frost
Frost strike: 40 runic power 100% weapon damage as frost attack
Obliterate: Does an assload of damage
Hungering cold: CC
Rime: Obliterate can make you howling blast again and make it cost nothing
Might of the frozen wastes: free runic power (45% chance to get 10 runic power from autoattacks)
Pillars of frost: Anti-knockdown
Killing Machine: free proc of crit for frost strike

Blood
Not worth it really. IMO, someone else can do this if they think it will work

All
Necrotic strike: 80% of ap as -healing (1 unholy)
Festering strike: 100% wep damage + 800 + increase disease duration by 6 seconds
Send their spell back to them.

Burst Rotations (assuming diseases are up)
Unholy: Gargoyle, Unholy Frenzy, Scourge strike, festering strike, scourge strike, festering strike, death coil (possibly multiple)
Additional damage, Additional damage, Big damage, Big damage, Big damage, Big damage, Meh damage
You can actually after a bit of ramp up time get off...Scourge strike x 6! seriously... wtf.


Frost (assuming max runic power): Obliterate, [possibly howling blast] Obliterate, [possibly howling blast], Obliterate [ possibly howling blast], frost strike x 3
Big damage Damage x 6

Not sure which at this point will have higher burst potential but it seems switching targets will be equally easy with both specs.



What this team has over paladins
-Well.... damage. No matter how much the ret trys he cannot get 4+ big damage moves in a 5 second rotation...they get what... MAYBE... crusader strike, judgement, exorcism, crusader strike, holy wrath, Templars verdict. The only way they do huge damage is on a 2 min cooldown which lets them do... crusader strike, templars verdict, judgement x 3 which in the same amount of time the DK would have done more damage >_>
-Both specs can get lichborne and on a pale horse... less time spent slowed + anti-fear/sheep (big for killing mages)
-Teaming with a priest or shaman also gives extra anti-fear mechanics.
-Round robin death grip.... seriously this is amazing
-Desecration and chains of ice/chibilitans... two manners to slow your target (60% speed reduction for 10 seconds)
-Heal oneself with lichborn + death coil
-Anti-healing on the opponent
-Not juggling holy power or worrying about mana whatsoever.
-RANGED silence
-Unholy can pet sac for 100% life back while in combat and use it every 2 mins.
-Negate 75% of non physical damage for 8 seconds
-Can apply their DOTs instantly on a 1 minuet cooldown

What paladins have over dks
-An extra stun
-Bubble (though it is getting more and more useless)
-Can actually heal oneself while not in combat easily to full
-Wings = free hammer of wraths in your burst rotation
-Off GCD interupt
-Pet at level 85
-AOE healing hands to help stay alive a bit longer. But this is a 1 min cooldown and will need to be staggered.
-50% damage reduction for 12 seconds.
-Can heal oneself at the sparing of damage.
-Always hit 3 targets
-DOT which does quite a bit of damage.
-Every 9 seconds they can heal any party member for atleast 70% of their life.

What paladins lack
-Snare
-Anti-healing of some sort.
-Reliable damage worth the mana other than crusader strike and templar's verdict (3 stacks of HP)
-Reliable mana regen fast enough to burst (4% per second is not enough if you are constantly fighting)
-RELIABLE burst that is not on a 3 minuet cooldown

[zenga]

Can only talk from my own experience:

currently closing in to 80 with shaman, 3x blood dk + disc priest. Forget about the shaman, he'll be replaced with my lvl 80 pally. And it's simply been amazing so far. I went blood as I wanted an easy rotation to level up. Never played DK's before. But the 3x deathgrip, the shielding, fear ward ... well they are so much fun. Been running the constantly through AV this weekend as it was holiday weekend, and I was having a blast, despite being at the lower end of the 71-79 bracket.

So eventually i'll run with 1 blood, 1 unholy 1 frost 1 ret (tank actually) & disc priest.

[Shodokan]

Can only talk from my own experience:

currently closing in to 80 with shaman, 3x blood dk + disc priest. Forget about the shaman, he'll be replaced with my lvl 80 pally. And it's simply been amazing so far. I went blood as I wanted an easy rotation to level up. Never played DK's before. But the 3x deathgrip, the shielding, fear ward ... well they are so much fun. Been running the constantly through AV this weekend as it was holiday weekend, and I was having a blast, despite being at the lower end of the 71-79 bracket.

So eventually i'll run with 1 blood, 1 unholy 1 frost 1 ret (tank actually) & disc priest.

Yeah, they can be fun.

[ghonosyph]

Hmm I have to say that on live with heals backup my 3 dk team absolutely destroys folks, and frost is a ton of fun as you have lots of control. I think pallys are still missing a ton of dmg. Head over to the suggestions beta forum and post shoda, lol state your views and ideas clear, I know bliz has been watching carefully all the pally feedback.

I like the idea of 4 dks tho and I plan to level one more just so I have 4 if pallys don't pan out perhaps 3 dk 1 pally?

[Shodokan]

Hmm I have to say that on live with heals backup my 3 dk team absolutely destroys folks, and frost is a ton of fun as you have lots of control. I think pallys are still missing a ton of dmg. Head over to the suggestions beta forum and post shoda, lol state your views and ideas clear, I know bliz has been watching carefully all the pally feedback.

I like the idea of 4 dks tho and I plan to level one more just so I have 4 if pallys don't pan out perhaps 3 dk 1 pally?

I'm going to make a thread when i get a chance, but i doubt it will do anything. I'll just switch to dks, no biggie. The rets were fun for this patch. But if i want to raid it will be on a dk, they are more entertaining.

[Firstcow]

Nice creative thinking Shodo! I might join the 4 DK bandwagon if this pans out

But if this will work in cata better than paladins, it only means paladins will be underpowered. If rets can't compete with DKs at burst then they are shit since they don't have side damage like disease.

[Shodokan]

Nice creative thinking Shodo! I might join the 4 DK bandwagon if this pans out

But if this will work in cata better than paladins, it only means paladins will be underpowered. If rets can't compete with DKs at burst then they are shit since they don't have side damage like disease.

They have the seal of vengence or w/e... which is now better in cata and is applied by every attack to 3 targets if in close proximity. The thing i think KD's have over ret is the shadow damage they do and frost damage. Sure holy is great but what skills are going to be purely holy damage? The DOT, seal of righteousness.... what else? Divine storm? DS is a joke now.

The only thing that paladins have over DKS truely IMO is healing hands staggered for a consistant 1-2k healing per second for 40 seconds. But it is on a 1 min cooldown.

[Firstcow]

Well, I have a guest pass for Starcraft 2 from a friend and I'm downloading SC2 as we speak. I hope to god I will like that game more than WoW so I can say goodbye forever to this money and time sink called WoW

[tanknspanker]

i guess you are talking about pvp? ^^
tbh, i don't think you should look at the burst output a team can make, but at the survive chances ..
that is my oppinion though, like pally's have divine shield, HEAL HEAL HEAL and go again, dk have that green shield but cannot heal.. i think, except for in blood spec
however, i may be wrong and i probably am, you may(must) correct me

greetingz
tank

[Shodokan]

i guess you are talking about pvp? ^^
tbh, i don't think you should look at the burst output a team can make, but at the survive chances ..
that is my oppinion though, like pally's have divine shield, HEAL HEAL HEAL and go again, dk have that green shield but cannot heal.. i think, except for in blood spec
however, i may be wrong and i probably am, you may(must) correct me

greetingz
tank

Your main heal (holy light) you can't even get two off during a bubble in cata so ultimately it becomes a 5 minuet heal which sucks.