Holy crap -- PvP changes

From mmo-champion:

Rating requirements on PvP Gear
The only item with a meaningful rating requirement is the heroic raid ilvl equivalent weapon (the 2200 weapon). However, unlike the LK seasons there is also a weapon equivalent to the normal raid tier ilvl that has no rating requirement.

All of the other items with rating requirements (ie: the set pieces) have the exact same stats as the ones without rating requirements, they're a free upgrade and just have a different texture color so you get a little bit of visual distinction for having a high rating (no gameplay advantage).

Can anyone say wow? :)

that's good news for people like me who suck at PvP and have never been above 1900 lol.

incoming massive arena players qq?

Well, there's still the titles and the 2200-equivalent weapons to distinguish people I guess :) I'm excited about this. It means they're seriously gating how many points you can get per week--It makes it easier to have multiple teams and not feel spread thin.

This is the biggest pile of bs I've heard in a good while. Rewarding good and dedicated arena/bg play with colours? What the hell is going on..what the hell. So any casual mommaboy can have just as good gear as a pure dedicated pvper?

The one thing that draws me to do better in arena and have fun is to aim for better gear. And having eg shoulders makes you stand a bit out of the crowd. But the colour thing is just as little apealing to me as achievements. They don't matter. Atleast pveers get hardmodes and can have better gear.

I think this change is fail fail fail.

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Originally Posted by Zub

incoming massive arena players qq?

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Originally Posted by Eloxy

This is the biggest pile of bs I've heard in a good while. Rewarding good and dedicated arena/bg play with colours? What the hell is going on..what the hell. So any casual mommaboy can have just as good gear as a pure dedicated pvper?

The one thing that draws me to do better in arena and have fun is to aim for better gear. And having eg shoulders makes you stand a bit out of the crowd. But the colour thing is just as little apealing to me as achievements. They don't matter. Atleast pveers get hardmodes and can have better gear.

I think this change is fail fail fail.

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knew it was coming :-)

Are you sure they just haven't added the rating requirements yet? They used to not have rating requirements a few seasons ago and said that it was a big mistake so they added the ratings. This would be a complete 180 degree change in direction for them so it would be a bit surprising if they actually did that.

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Originally Posted by Eloxy

This is the biggest pile of bs I've heard in a good while. Rewarding good and dedicated arena/bg play with colours? What the hell is going on..what the hell. So any casual mommaboy can have just as good gear as a pure dedicated pvper?

The one thing that draws me to do better in arena and have fun is to aim for better gear. And having eg shoulders makes you stand a bit out of the crowd. But the colour thing is just as little apealing to me as achievements. They don't matter. Atleast pveers get hardmodes and can have better gear.

I think this change is fail fail fail.

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Allthough i'm not really into arena i do agree. Simply because i have full wrathfull means that i have a big advantage over the average pug in furious/relentless gear. If everyone is gonna get full wrath then pve off items will be the only items that will improve a player's pvpcapabilities.

It would be a bit fail indeed.

There was a statement that the current system in live wow was not working for a lot of people. Having rated requirements tended to let the highly skilled people get gear quickly and then keep others from getting it. You end up with a large group of people that can never get a pvp weapon (1800 isn't exactly easy, maybe 20% get there?) and anything but those terrible wintergrasp shoulders. The current virtually no rating requirements are what the intend to implement. There's also a craftable starter entry level pvp set that will be upgraded every season (the recipe will change to better stats).
Blizz stated higher skilled people will still get it faster due to getting more points and such.
Even with PVE raiders, with the icc buff at 30%, most folks are getting the high end raiding gear, it just takes longer. So really they are aligning pvp with pve and also allowing average joe blow to eventually get decent pvp gear. Which I think is a welcome change.
I personally hated being someone who didn't raid so I was stuck with a crappy 232 weap at best vs all these arena teams with 264+ weaps. It's a HUGE difference.

I like the change, i'm looking forward to it, I think it's a positive thing. If your already better at pvp, why should you be rewarded with gear that lets you wtfpwn others without trying, that's only fun for a small percentage of people. You still get to look cool and showoff your titles and armor/weapon.

On equal gear level good players will still win from the bad players. I totally don't care about arena myself, besides the occasional night every other week with 2 friend to play some 3v3.. But I do enjoy BG's a lot, and I play them a lot. Obviously the dedicated arena players has an edge over the non arena players in BG's. So even out that difference is for a player like me a welcome thing.

However just having different colors as the only 'achievement' for arena seems a bit stupid as well. I was thinking/hoping they would keep the different tiers of pvp gear, but make them wider available. Either through arena, rated bg's, or by the highest tier raid emblems.

IMO blizz could just go ; ok, pve gear is obtained throug daily emblems, when you complete raids and hardmodes you can change colour on the gear. Yep that sounds realy fun don't it? No to me ;) blizz is heading down the wrong road tbh. Yeah I'm not a casual, but I'm not a hardcore player either.

Hmm... interesting change, I wonder if they're gonna eventually have heroics drop same gear as raids with an inferior color..... or maybe just get rid of gear all together and just have our outfit change colors since people who are good at PVE/PVP will do better anyways.

Well in any case I'm sure things will work out in the end.

This is how the arena tourney is. Everyone is on a level playing field, and the skilled arena players are the ones that win, not the ones who managed to get the best gear.

However, I have a feeling people will use some of the raid gear to their advantage. e.g. Shadowmourne (or whatever the cat version of the top gear is)

So now all the sudden, we're back to season 1-3, where if you want an advantage in PvP, you need to raid.

I also have a feeling some of these changes they put in place just to mix things up and keep it interesting. It's probably not right or wrong, it's just different, and probably keeps things from getting stale. It would be pretty boring for a lot of people to have a repeat of last season, and the season before that.

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Originally Posted by smokebum

Hmm... interesting change, I wonder if they're gonna eventually have heroics drop same gear as raids with an inferior color..... or maybe just get rid of gear all together and just have our outfit change colors since people who are good at PVE/PVP will do better anyways.

Well in any case I'm sure things will work out in the end.

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My point exactly. If everyone have the same gear anyway why the he'll have it? Instead of having cool new gear that will improve your character, you get colours, achievements, mounts, titles, pets and noncombat stuff. Big QQ from me if this hits live.

I totally understand what Eloxy is saying. But when it comes to Arena,

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There was a statement that the current system in live wow was not working for a lot of people. Having rated requirements tended to let the highly skilled people get gear quickly and then keep others from getting it. You end up with a large group of people that can never get a pvp weapon (1800 isn't exactly easy, maybe 20% get there?) and anything but those terrible wintergrasp shoulders.

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This is the exact case. I've been playing serious arena for about 2 months now. I came in VERY late in the season and I'm probably not the greatest arena player, but when my 5s team isn't getting 1300 rated teams, we get 2k+ rated teams and we get destroyed. The teams that are our MMR (1750-1850) are either Full wrathful T2 wep teams that are just carrying someone, or trying a different comp. It's the people who have the gear that are pushing my team, who is mostly full relent + 232/PvE weps down and keeping us away from our 1800 weps. It's not skill when a 4 DPS team can global one of my teammates.

I think you should just enter a bg or dungeon and grab the gear you want off a rack

Since there's obviously going to be no reward for skill or even time spent grinding.

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Originally Posted by heyaz

I think you should just enter a bg or dungeon and grab the gear you want off a rack

Since there's obviously going to be no reward for skill or even time spent grinding.

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If top tier weapons, mounts, titles aren't enough reward for you, I heard the lego MMO is coming out soon.


/goes to look outside.


Nope, sky is not falling.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

This is the exact case. I've been playing serious arena for about 2 months now. I came in VERY late in the season and I'm probably not the greatest arena player, but when my 5s team isn't getting 1300 rated teams, we get 2k+ rated teams and we get destroyed. The teams that are our MMR (1750-1850) are either Full wrathful T2 wep teams that are just carrying someone, or trying a different comp. It's the people who have the gear that are pushing my team, who is mostly full relent + 232/PvE weps down and keeping us away from our 1800 weps. It's not skill when a 4 DPS team can global one of my teammates.

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I came back in the middle of the season so I pretty much went through the same thing. I started with deadly gear, then furious, then relentless, and now wrathful. There was a progression of gear upgrades and trying out different things to advance in ranking.

In PVP reaching a certain ranking is like beating a hard boss and just because people are unable to reach a certain point doesn't necessary mean you should get rid of that point. It'll be like saying "well u guys are having a problem beating this boss, so I'll tell you what just keep grinding the mobs for couple weeks and I'll give u the drops from this boss you cannot beat"

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

It's not skill when a 4 DPS team can global one of my teammates.

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Lol I'm sure alot of non-boxers say this about boxers and how it takes no skill, but as most here would know its not that easy and u can probably count the number of teams that have reached 2k with two hands and 2.2k+ with one hand.

Oh an I'm full wrathful and have had a team destroy one of my guys before I could even blow bloodlust. Now that is some coordination and skill on their part.


Atleast for me, removing ranking req is like removing all the bosses for a raid. Then it becomes just a grind fest for points which is very disappointing, but I'll still continue to do it in the name of killing more alliance. :)

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

It's not skill when a 4 DPS team can global one of my teammates.

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That's a pretty funny statement considering that's what our multiboxing arena teams are all about. :D

It'll be an interesting season to say the least. After working my ass off to get two teams over 1800, there is definitely a great sense of accomplishment, but I also feel the pain of my newest team as the flaws are very highlighted in the system. I can't tell you how many 1400 rated teams we get beat down that have 2-3 fully decked out players carrying the other guys. While it's not impossible to move up, it can be incredibly frustrating as the MMR system is so flawed. You may fight a legitimate 1700 rated team where you have a good battle because everybody is on par for gear with each other, then the very next match be playing a low rated team that's carrying people that annihilate you so quickly. Our worst loss last night was a 1250 MMR rated team where 3 of their members have the 2200 weapons. Good luck against those comps.

A few weeks back, I was playing my DK/ret team and got 6-7 free wins off a team where only one guy showed up to play. He was all alone dancing, and I was shocked cause he had shoulders. I looked up his team afterwards and saw the team rating was around 1700, however, I was beating them as if they were a 13-1400 rated team. I didn't think much of it at the time until I faced them again later where all 5 showed up, and blew up my entire team rather quickly. What I found was that when only 1 person actually enters the arena, thee team MMR posts a lot lower than where the team rating is at, so when you beat them, they don't lose many points in their team rating, but it still drives their team MMR down a lot faster than their actual team rating. What's worse, is when you do face their entire team, their MMR is low enough where you'll get slaughtered in points.

At least with next season, you won't have better geared players keeping you from getting better gear.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

If top tier weapons, mounts, titles aren't enough reward for you, I heard the lego MMO is coming out soon.


/goes to look outside.


Nope, sky is not falling.

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No skyisfalling over this at all, it's. The fact that wow is evolving into sumthing Thats not the game I started to play. Maby you like mounts and titles, great for you nothing wrong with that. But I think I speak for the majority of the pvp/arena comunity when I say that getting 1800 rating isn't cool just cuz u get 1800 rating. It's the fact that you've worked hard for and earned a new uppgrade you can be proud of and enhances you character. Achies pets mounts are fun and all but it wouldn't be cool if u beat deathwing on harmode and you get "drums" a deathwing minipet to show off!!

Not fun just...not fun :(:(

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Originally Posted by smokebum

I came back in the middle of the season so I pretty much went through the same thing. I started with deadly gear, then furious, then relentless, and now wrathful. There was a progression of gear upgrades and trying out different things to advance in ranking.

In PVP reaching a certain ranking is like beating a hard boss and just because people are unable to reach a certain point doesn't necessary mean you should get rid of that point. It'll be like saying "well u guys are having a problem beating this boss, so I'll tell you what just keep grinding the mobs for couple weeks and I'll give u the drops from this boss you cannot beat"



Lol I'm sure alot of non-boxers say this about boxers and how it takes no skill, but as most here would know its not that easy and u can probably count the number of teams that have reached 2k with two hands and 2.2k+ with one hand.

Oh an I'm full wrathful and have had a team destroy one of my guys before I could even blow bloodlust. Now that is some coordination and skill on their part.


Atleast for me, removing ranking req is like removing all the bosses for a raid. Then it becomes just a grind fest for points which is very disappointing, but I'll still continue to do it in the name of killing more alliance. :)

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I still disagree, especially when the top 100 5's teams in US Bloodlust are 2360+ If you're in a BG that has only 5 2.2k rated teams, you're in a terribly shitty BG

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Originally Posted by Eloxy

No skyisfalling over this at all, it's. The fact that wow is evolving into sumthing Thats not the game I started to play. Maby you like mounts and titles, great for you nothing wrong with that. But I think I speak for the majority of the pvp/arena comunity when I say that getting 1800 rating isn't cool just cuz u get 1800 rating. It's the fact that you've worked hard for and earned a new uppgrade you can be proud of and enhances you character. Achies pets mounts are fun and all but it wouldn't be cool if u beat deathwing on harmode and you get "drums" a deathwing minipet to show off!!

Not fun just...not fun :(:(

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I agree, WoW is evolving, as it always has. Even season to season it's been a different game for most classes. I do like mounts and titles and such. You can armory any of my toons. I've never been a hard mode instance clearer, I've never been glad.

I just don't think rating requirements for your gear is the answer. They already do gear color reskins. All of the T10, you can tell at a glance if the person is 251, 264, or 277. I imagine the same will be for the arena sets. I understand getting to 1800 is an accomplishment. I'm currently clawing my way there myself. I may make it, I may not. If I don't make it I didn't have any less fun getting there. I just don't like the idea of being held back by gear when I can't get the gear I need because I'm being held back.

In PvE you've always been able to farm your points daily. You could be in a terrible ICC guild and still gear up via frost badges. Hell, T9 and T10 you could get an entire 5pc set just from grinding heroics. These arena changes are just bringing PvP gearing in line with PvE.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

I still disagree, especially when the top 100 5's teams in US Bloodlust are 2360+ If you're in a BG that has only 5 2.2k rated teams, you're in a terribly shitty BG

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If there are more higher ranked team, wouldn't that mean there are more teams playing? So u don't have to fight the same team over and over and get farmed?

Or even better yet, fighting people around ur ranking instead of fighting low ranked teams that are geared for 1 point wins and 22 point loses.

I don't know how most feel but I would love to have more high ranked teams, instead of the low ranked teams that got their t2 weapon from 3s and now doing 5s who take me for 20 points.

It's not only about arena anymore, it will be about arena AND rated BG's. Keeping rating on gear could potentially cause a pretty big advantage in a rated BG so taking away the rating could lessen gear as a reason for a potential win or loss. You will still need your skill, teamwork and knowledge of comps. Plus you still have to get the points and we do not know all of their plans for that yet.

I understand what you're saying Eloxy, but as Svpernova said the system as it's set up now just doesn't function--If you were able to get a high rating early and get geared you've got a huge advantage over someone that started even a month later than you. It should be skill=gear, not igotto2200first=gear.

Lets not forget that you *still* get a better weapon than everyone else and you *still* will have either a BG or Arena rating to show that you're "skilled".

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Originally Posted by smokebum

If there are more higher ranked team, wouldn't that mean there are more teams playing? So u don't have to fight the same team over and over and get farmed?

Or even better yet, fighting people around ur ranking instead of fighting low ranked teams that are geared for 1 point wins and 22 point loses.

I don't know how most feel but I would love to have more high ranked teams, instead of the low ranked teams that got their t2 weapon from 3s and now doing 5s who take me for 20 points.

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On Monday nights, 5pm -10pm PST(the best time my team has found that there are the most teams queing) My arena team can do about 30-45 matches. In those 30-45, We'll see the same team at least 4 - 5 teams. Some we'll even get back to back. And out of those matches we'll see *very* few teams within 200 points of our MMR. Most teams we get are 2100+ or sub 1500.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

I still disagree, especially when the top 100 5's teams in US Bloodlust are 2360+ If you're in a BG that has only 5 2.2k rated teams, you're in a terribly shitty BG

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Another flaw in the PVP system design. Retaliation is a terribly shitty BG. At 1500, i'm in the top 225. But what's the incentive for teams to play that are already 2k+? None. Get your rating on the 5s team in the first few weeks and then get your points from 3s to get all your gear.

Granted this is by far the longest season, ever. But, there's absolutely no incentive to continue playing arena. I like the change of the rating requirements being removed. I don't want to fight teams that undergear me, or overgear me.

I do agree with you that rating requirements removal isn't a big deal (and yes, I've been doing arenas since S2 boxing along with Smokey).

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In PVP reaching a certain ranking is like beating a hard boss and just because people are unable to reach a certain point doesn't necessary mean you should get rid of that point. It'll be like saying "well u guys are having a problem beating this boss, so I'll tell you what just keep grinding the mobs for couple weeks and I'll give u the drops from this boss you cannot beat"

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This would be an applicable analogy only if said raid boss was consistently getting harder, gaining new abilities and gear, which is not the case. Or if you HAD to beat a certain team to advance your rating, which is not the case. Apples to oranges.

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Originally Posted by Alemi

Another flaw in the PVP system design. Retaliation is a terribly shitty BG. At 1500, i'm in the top 225. But what's the incentive for teams to play that are already 2k+? None. Get your rating on the 5s team in the first few weeks and then get your points from 3s to get all your gear.

Granted this is by far the longest season, ever. But, there's absolutely no incentive to continue playing arena. I like the change of the rating requirements being removed. I don't want to fight teams that undergear me, or overgear me.

I do agree with you that rating requirements removal isn't a big deal (and yes, I've been doing arenas since S2 boxing along with Smokey).



This would be an applicable analogy only if said raid boss was consistently getting harder, gaining new abilities and gear, which is not the case. Or if you HAD to beat a certain team to advance your rating, which is not the case. Apples to oranges.

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I agree with the lack of incentive, my biggest gripe since I've been doing arenas the past 2 months is the lack of diversity in teams we get matched up against. Seems like any given night there is only a handful of teams playing.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

On Monday nights, 5pm -10pm PST(the best time my team has found that there are the most teams queing) My arena team can do about 30-45 matches. In those 30-45, We'll see the same team at least 4 - 5 teams. Some we'll even get back to back. And out of those matches we'll see *very* few teams within 200 points of our MMR. Most teams we get are 2100+ or sub 1500.

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I play all different days and times cuz of my schedule, but I will say I've been in que for more then 30 mins just to lose 15-20 points on a Monday. Every time we lose, I pray to god for less then a 10 point lose, cuz most of the time it is way more. Also have had ton of teams that were geared giving us 2 points for a win.

Although I've never played in a high populated bg, I always assumed it would be alot easier with more teams around my rating playing.

I think the thing that bothers me the most about this is it feels like they are taking skill out of the equation and replacing it with time. No matter how screwed up ur comp or skill lvl is, u will get the item u want in time. Ofcourse minus the super cool color.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

I agree with the lack of incentive, my biggest gripe since I've been doing arenas the past 2 months is the lack of diversity in teams we get matched up against. Seems like any given night there is only a handful of teams playing.

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Same thing for me. I played, probably 50 games last night (nothing else to do) and probably faced 15 teams. Of those 15 teams, a number of full wrathful rerolls or MMRs that were SO out of line with mine it was insane. (ex: 1600 MMR vs. 2100 MMR).

When the gates open and I see 2 warriors with 40k health and an ele shaman with 34k, I just fetal position.

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Originally Posted by Alemi

Same thing for me. I played, probably 50 games last night (nothing else to do) and probably faced 15 teams. Of those 15 teams, a number of full wrathful rerolls or MMRs that were SO out of line with mine it was insane. (ex: 1600 MMR vs. 2100 MMR).

When the gates open and I see 2 warriors with 40k health and an ele shaman with 34k, I just fetal position.

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rofl! I can definetely relate. It never fails, we can tell in the first 20 seconds what the teams MMR is and be pretty accurate. The game for us then is to see how well we do against them.

@smokebum:

I disagree. I don't see this as taking skill out of the equation--Rather, it puts everyone on the same gear level initially and says "Go forth and kill each other." Then the most skilled people get to the top and get the unique colored armor, titles, and the best weapons.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

@smokebum:

I disagree. I don't see this as taking skill out of the equation--Rather, it puts everyone on the same gear level initially and says "Go forth and kill each other." Then the most skilled people get to the top and get the unique colored armor, titles, and the best weapons.

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Hmm.. In some ways u may be right but from what I can see in this post, the people who are for the change are the ones who are basically saying "I cannot get to 1800 to get my weapon so it'll be better if we get rid of the req.". no?

Edit: I think I have gotten myself into one of those never ending forum battles. I'll concede before this thread goes to 100 pages.

I think a BIG motivation, if not the main reason, a lot of people do arena is for gear.

So if you can't get special gear by doing arena, I think arenas are going to be "less full".

I doubt I'd do arena just for fun. I've always done it for the gear. And I enjoy using that gear in BGs to pwn noobs.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

unique colored armor.

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I lol'd.


/old man voice

Back in my day.....

We pvp'd for the fun of it, we didnt care about titles,gear or anything. It was all about defending Southshore and Tauren Mill.....for weeks on end.

Damn Hippies!



Edit: Arena =/-= skill. I have boosted people to 1800 in 2s this season. I have wintraded up to glad on nightfall bg 2700ish(3s) also this season (I think at the time it was 2680 /shrug). The people running around with arena gear and rating doesnt always mean skill, proven by having 1800 weapon and I could beat them naked(lock ;p). I hate using the word skill in conjuctiction with a video game but whatever. People play for their own personal reasons. Personally, I am happy to see the changes and yet sad to see my gold making venture crushed. If anything the ladder is broke and you can bet the rated bg ladder will be broke also, play for yourself not for standing in org/dal/if hoping people inspect you because you think youre something special.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

rofl! I can definetely relate. It never fails, we can tell in the first 20 seconds what the teams MMR is and be pretty accurate. The game for us then is to see how well we do against them.

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Exactly. Some games last night, I just knew from their positioning and such that it was going to be rough. Gates open, 3 in stealth - how many boomkins will I have to deal with and will they typhoon me as I heal over their lolstarfalls.

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So if you can't get special gear by doing arena, I think arenas are going to be "less full".

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This will probably be true if they still keep arenas BG specific as they had planned. I suspect they will eventually take them, like battlegrounds, to continent battlegroups.

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Hmm.. In some ways u may be right but from what I can see in this post, the people who are for the change are the ones who are basically saying "I cannot get to 1800 to get my weapon so it'll be better if we get rid of the req.". no?

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You know I've been 2k+ before my absence, so you know that's not true. Fat cow (not an insult, btw, he and I are friends since we play on the same server - so he knows that's a term of endearment) :)

What I think needs to be said, this "gear equality" isn't going to come overnight, guys. You will only get blue quality gear from honor points (battlegrounds) and the epic stuff from conquest points (rated battlegrounds/arena). Scrubs - and I hate the term - will still not get their gear in the same fashion as before, but slower. This creates an equal footing for people who A) don't level as fast, or B) start cataclysm late. This'll prevent them from being cock blocked by teams that greatly outgear them or teams that refuse to queue.

What I see, are a lot of people who think that their PVP skill comes from them outgearing their opponents and are afraid to have them in equal (NOT BETTER) gear. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Keep in mind too, that Cata is shaping up to take PVP back to TBC days. Slower, more calculated damage, and FAR less crit (<10%). Adding in the fact that there won't be a 30% buff in raid instances that allow every casual joe schmo to obtain 25 man ICC gear and the fact that raid instances will, hopefully, again be difficult (how many people really saw pugs for SSC back in the day?).

If you look at one change - without looking at the big picture - I can see Chicken Little syndrome, for sure. When you compile all the changes together? Not a big deal. Really.

Just be thankful we're not going back to honor decay days to get PVP gear. Then I'd chime in with some qq.

Edit: Forgot to say - rated battlegrounds? NOT EVEN on beta yet. We don't know the scoring system; I'm going to wager that it's a 0 net point gain for a loss. So until these are out and that's confirmed, the only way to get conquest points is by the daily random which give you ~20 conquest points (iirc). So, after 80 days of doing the daily you can get 2 pieces of gear at current pricing.

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Originally Posted by Eloxy

IMO blizz could just go ; ok, pve gear is obtained throug daily emblems, when you complete raids and hardmodes you can change colour on the gear. Yep that sounds realy fun don't it? No to me ;) blizz is heading down the wrong road tbh. Yeah I'm not a casual, but I'm not a hardcore player either.

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Thats what they do now. Good players get frost badges and frost badge level gear much faster than the bad players. The goal is everyone gets the gear its just gonna take the bad players a lot longer in both pvp and pve. I almost guarantee come 4.0 everyone will be able to faceroll even heroic modes.

@smokebum:
Not trying to start a war :) Just sharings points of view.

@all:
I think Alemi makes some good points. The one big thing I'll add is that Blizz stated they were going to merge the Arena and BG ques so that every single person in a particular server type (IE, North America, China, Oceanic, and Euro) will be playing against each other. If this goes through then things are going to be much better--Even if only 10% of the people that do arenas now do arenas post Cata you'll still have instant ques AND you'll probably never face teams more than 5 MMR off of you. I assume the same will be true for rated BG's.

Overall I like it.