Equal gear for everyone and then see who is actually good or who is being helped by gear advantage. I say let everyone have the same gear so skill is the deciding factor not gear.
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Equal gear for everyone and then see who is actually good or who is being helped by gear advantage. I say let everyone have the same gear so skill is the deciding factor not gear.
Wrong, the gear has a scaling ilevel and stats. Meaning a warr with "yellow" has lower dps than the warr in "red".Quote:
Originally Posted by Whowantstoknow
But still this is altso fail imo. I'm oldschool I know, but I realy liked the way gear was distributed in tbc. Not to fast and not to slow, but to gain the good gear you had to earn it. And no lame hardmode "buying more time b4 people Get bored" but thats pve;)
Im not getting into an argument over this but the new PvP model is like the current 10 man progression model. Remember that in CATA 10man and 25 man gear will be the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloxy
You can get ilevel 264 gear from frost badges crafted and BoEs meaning that there is virtually no upgrades over badge loot in ICC10 normal and the heroic mode gear is equivalent in most cases. The only ilevel upgrade (ignoring for a moment there is not an ilevel264 badge item for every slot) is heroic mode LK weapons same as the proposed PvP model.
10 man Raiders will get ilevel264 gear faster than those running heroics.
Once of the things I like about this the most -- for boxers -- Is that it makes any ole' team you like to be competitive. You want to run 4x Warlocks in rated BG's? Done. Grab a healer friend and have at it. You'll eventually get to the point where it's about your skill and your teammates vice "Ah man, I'm cockblocked because I can't get the 1800 weapons." I like that a lot.
I agree wholeheartedly with this. I play arena for fun rarely, mostly just to get gear so I can have fun in bg's. Arena is really not that fun, it's full of more strategy on when to que and what comp you have then actually playing each other. And then there's praying to the gods after you got manhandled that it wasn't some up and coming team boosting people which just stole 20+ points from you after you won the last 4 games at 5 points a win...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
I think it's exactly like the current pve model. You win more, you get gear faster, ie you clear icc each week, you gear up quick. Eventually everyone gets gear and sees the instance but some just get it faster. That method is INFINITELY more fun to me because I can play and enjoy it. If i lose, so what, there's always next match, in the current system it's a total heart breaker. You end up pissed at the end of the night because you had 4 bad losses and dropped 80 points which took you 2 weeks to get back.
I agree with blizz that the way elite players are rewarded just emphasizes the fact and makes it even easier for them to wtfpwn you. I've seen the difference in my 1300 rated/geared team and my 2000 rated/geared same team. If I come up on a team that isn't atleast 50% full wrathful, total faceroll. I could put my cat on the keyboard and still maybe lose 2 guys at most before I win. That's not skill, that's just flaunting the fact you got gear and are keeping them from getting it by stomping them into the ground so you can get even better gear to stomp them harder with.
I do like reward for skilled pvp, but the current state is just too broad a spectrum.
I'm really looking forward to rated bg's, I think they will be much more fun than arena and allow you really enjoy winning and even losing with the new system to be implemented.
It seems that people who had a harder time getting 1,8k like the new change. People who didn't dislike it. I tend to compare it to PVE. The better you are, the better gear you get. Now, this hardly goes for arena. Only the weapon. I also don't think there is skill involved getting 1,8k depending on setup. Almost every class has a faceroll setup. Coordinating CC/swaps =/= skill.
I do think there's a major problem at the moment with people who start arena now and have no gear at all. It is indeed horrible to say atleast. Trying to fix this is indeed something that should be done. But giving everyone the same gear, with only time as a factor is to weak imo. Then i want a foreign dislodged object from frost badges aswell please(can be non heroic, so raiders get their "extra" heroic one). Comes down to the same thing really.
As someone who does raid, I kinda like this suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloxy
One of the issues we faced in WotLK is that our guild was a 10-man only guild. The 25-man guilds were able to stumble through the 25-man dungeons and pick up such better gear than us and their "off night" 10-man raids were consistently ahead of us in terms of progression or achievement/hardmode kills.
I know they're "fixing" that problem in a different way, but equalizing the stats on the gear for PvE would seperate the women from the girls and still provide some bragging-rights in-game to signal the best players from the average players.
Setting arena up like IROC does have some advantages. Everyone drives the same car, and you can truly brag about driver skill when you win.
How did you know Svpernova's strategy?Quote:
Originally Posted by outdrsyguy1
Don't knock Cat On Keyboard (COK). It's gotten me to 1700+!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vecter
I like this a lot as well. One of the worries I had about picking my first team to level to 85 is that I figured I would have to guess the better team in PvP because the second team I leveled would have to work uphill against a gear barrier. I like the idea of having 2 BG teams at 85 someday and seeing which one I am truly better at playing. As it stands now, gear plays so much of a role that the earliest arrivals to max-level enjoy huge advantages. (Which, if you are enjoying now, will be very hard to give up!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
I remember reading that tif bliz could have changed one thing about pvp, was never making arenas.I'm not much of an arena personn but the idea is great for such a small population of playerbase. Those are the ones contributing to prob the most complaints on balance, and creating balanced toons for arenas may affect the larger scale pvp.
Also making arena gear better then bg rewards is dumb. They need an alternative reward for arenas.
Gear plays such a huge role in the outcome of fights, amybe they want skill to be a bigger role in the outcome. Just a thought...
I could be way off tho lol.
That's a different type of game. MMOs hook people in by allowing progression and rewarding you for both skill and grinding. Although I think there can be a balance... if you remember Vanilla, where if you tried to roll an alt, you had no chance at ever gearing them up unless you were already in a top raiding guild and got handed gear right off the bat by filling a role that was needed, or by doing that atrocious rank grind system. That was too much. Being able to grind out pvp and pve gear from 2 seasons ago was a start, but maybe not enough. This new system could work... if they do it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinotnoir
This is a GREAT change!!! This will boost pvp competition a LOT. Every Joe Blow, to quote someone else, will now be interested in PVP because they have hope. Hope that eventually they can get all the best gear, or most of it. Rating reqs killed hope, and when there is no hope, there is no fun, and no play. Hence pvp slowly died.
Finally Blizzard realizes it is more important to make 90% of the customers happy, than to make 10% happy.
And by adding a cap of points per week ensures that the 80% of the population will never get bored, slowly they upgrade all the gear until the season ends. Then a new season starts and the whole thing starts over.
And to address the insecure elitists with the attitude "MWAAAAA, MWAAAAAA, MOMMMY, I don't feel special anymore because every Joe Blow has the same gear as me, MWAAAAA, MWAAAAA". If you trully are special, prove it in fair competition, that is with equal gear. And you still get to show off that you are special, you get colored armor LOL. I love it how Blizzard slapped all the elitist pricks on the face. LOL.
I LOVE IT. Too bad I don't play WoW anymore.
We did, and so did you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstcow
If you give a 1500 rated player 2k gear you still end up with a 1500 player =/
The gearchange might not matter, but i dont like it. its turning this game into Teamfortress. I like mmo's
I think people are forgetting that the 2200 equivalent weapons still require a high rating. Getting Heroic-mode level gear for being good at PvP is still a pretty big incentive for getting better and showing skill.
Are we sure this isn't just for the starter pvp set? Maybe once the first season is over it will go back to ratings on everything.
I like this change. Just makes gearing for world pvp easier, and that's all I really enjoy. Can't wait!
I also don't totally hate the idea of going back to the vanilla days of actually being able to get something useful for pvp, in pve. I like the idea of being able to do both, and make my character better instead of the old "this is a waste of time pve'ing, i should just be grinding battle grounds" Variaty is the spice of life! :D
PvP battles should be determined by composition and skill, not by gear gaps...Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloxy
All current hardmodes can be pugged and carried. Anyone can get the heroic pve gear these days.
You can easily be carried to 2k aswell, but thats not what im talking about. Anybody with a slight dedication can go 1600 rating and then have PVP chest gloves pants and offparts, So if you have a 232-251 weapon and all wrathfull pieces exept from helm shoulders, you are pretty much set for hitting 1800 rating. But to reach 1800 rating you have to do pvp and IMPROVE your skills, unlike pve where what you face is pretty much sumthing you allready know due to reading taccs (or a 30% i win buff=P), not starting a pvp vs pve discussion here, but pve in the state it is now is to damn boring.Quote:
Originally Posted by valkry
And yeah its cool to stand out of the crowd with gear that not everyone has, makes me feel like i accomplished sumthing.But thats not gonna be the case as much i guess.
I disagree with a portion of your last post, Eloxy--Just because you get to 1600 doesn't mean you're going to slowly crawl to 1800 just because you get better at pvp. Maybe you like playing a spec that doesn't work in arenas or you're in a BG that's super small or maybe you can't find partners that complement your playstyle. The point is that this change allows everyone to be on the same footing to start with--Then the best get the 2200 equivalent weapons. That's fair.
I am sorry but that is a complete misnomer. Now I am going to pull some statistics out of my ass here, but I am willing to bet cash money that 50% of the people who arena cheat in some form at 2500+ at least once. I could go lower on the rating but I am just using it as a avg starting point. Where +0/+1 are not worth it and -20 point losses would be too frustrating.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
Besides the whole discussion. I don't get T2 weapons now and i don't think i'll get them when cata hits. Simply because i'm not epic pro etc. I could get it if i got a partner with the same skill or higher, but pffff. All for 100 SP more, like we don't oneshot people allready.
It's the set that makes the difference, not a T2 wep. So that's not gonna matter crap in arena either really.
For melee the extra damage is quite a lot. For casters less so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Littleburst
I like the change but not because i couldnt get the gear (I could pay to be carried to 2200 if i wanted) but because there will be a more even spread of skill from 1000 to 2500+ instead of mediocre players getting to 1000 and stopping because they cant get any more gear.
@Fat Tire:
I completely agree with you--In the current system.
I'm just saying that for Cata it'll work much better, especially with the consolidation of BG and Arena servers.
Wait a minute. Let me see if I have this right. Folks are saying that Arena rating indicates skill level, but they don't want anyone with less skill (lower rating) to get the same gear stats (as opposed to gear look) as them. So what you folks who don't like the change are saying is that you have an advantage in gear and you don't want to lose that advantage? Understandable, but if all you want is recognition that you're better than the rest of us mouthbreathers, they're giving you that with unique graphical effects for your iPwn gear. So what's the problem again? Don't you want more teams around your level to fight (at least while you're climbing the ladder)? Don't you want more new folks to play against to challenge you with new and unique comps and playstyles?
This sounds suspiciously like the twink debate around the time the xp/no-xp change was going live.
I remember doing raids in DAoC into Tuscaren Glacier, Prince raids, Dragon raids and other stuff where the gear you got was for show 99% of the time as crafted 99/100% weapons were significantly better. Didn't stop us from enjoying the TG/Prince raids. Interesting to see the shift from "that was cool" to "meh, it might be cool but unless it has +1 str on it, just d/e it and gimme the shard."
I R amused.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
I would love a source about consolidation of arena servers as I have read nothing of the sort and I consider myself an up-to-date type of person. I read about the Rated BG consolidation but even then its still horde vs alliance only, it will be the same ladder type scaling, once you get past a certain threshold its all the same. Nothing will change. How can anyone measure skill or even call it that when cheating is so rampant. This is why I have preached of playing for yourself and only for yourself, enjoying the mindless entertainment it brings and playing the game for what it is.
Skilled pvp players welcome an even playing field. Bads need to hide behind gear.
Quoted for truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by thedreameater
Also, I don't like that I have to do arena for the best pvp gear. I MUCH prefer BGs and world pvp. I nearly have battlemaster and that arguably takes some skill, yet I only get the same gear as the honour grinders. I like the fact gear will be almost the same for everyone. Also takes out the "he was better geared than me" excuse for losing.
Quoted for untruth.Quote:
Originally Posted by thedreameater
I dont understand your point? How do bads actually "hide" behind their gear if they are bad?
"Good" players will always gear up with better gear quicker than "bads". So, "good" players will allready be maxed out on gear when these "bads" finally gear up. And if a "good" player cant beat a "bad" player with equal gear....then you dont pass go.
Yes, let's generalise beyond reality to add something constructive. Do that on wowforums please, where it's no exeption.Quote:
Originally Posted by thedreameater
Having wrath gear feels like you've accomplished something. Same wil a pve player having 6,5k. It's special. Now it's not anymore. And you distinguish yourself by a mount or a non combat pet. whoho.
Gz you just hit the constructiveness of the wow-furums.Quote:
Originally Posted by thedreameater
I realy feel that people that welcome this change so hard, don't realy pvp much at all. It's more like "haha pvpers lost the privilege of having gear I couldn't badge farm!"
Realy... When I started pvp I sucked, I failed and sucked some more. And when I hit 1300 (after 150 games?) I bought the first item and even if it was low, I was damn proud.
And if you can't reach up to 1600 and get competetive gear(wich is all you need as a boxer) then you are doing sumthing wrong and/or giving up to easy.
No reason currentseason gear should be welfare. Everyone can obtain it, if they realy want it.
And one more thing, what you say realy pisses me off. Many of my friends and myself worked realy hard for our rating and gear. Lots of frustration, practice, fun (and keyboards in my case). And you say we cowardly hide behind gear??? Gtfo, ofc we will assrape your chrs if you show up in a bg with bad gear. We earnt to do so. Cuz of our hard grind to get gear wich exel at killin stuff and staying alive in pvp. And don't go all "many people get boosted in pvp!" bleh boosting in pve happens at a more regular basis.
Yeah, imagine how all the PVE players would react if they said all the raids AND heroics drop the exact same gear so that everyone can be equal. BUT if you kill the end, end boss on heroic mode on the top raid, he'll drop a slightly upgraded weapon.
Same argument! PVE people need to hide behind gear to kill bosses? They aren't skilled enough to kill bosses without the gear?
Oh wait, PVE is a progression? Well so WAS PVP.
QFT. Didn't want to type it myself, because i have no clue if this is indeed the case. I guess there'll still be heroic loot that's better and actually does require progression to be able to get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kicksome
Back in my day - we had to climb uphill both ways to school. Sorry - that's what this reminded me of. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eloxy
As an old school pvper (glad on my druid in s2, rival on my shamans in s3/s4, and then took a break for the past year so missed out on s6/s7, and have only been back in arena for this past month), I could really care less about this change. I never cared what gear OTHER people had, that's what I don't get?
This is what is making me cringe - it seems everyone here is ASSUMING that this gear will be welfare gear and there seems to be a whole misunderstanding of how the system works. The current structure on the point system in beta, is still being worked on but, currently you get zero conquest points for a loss. Furthermore, there's a limit to the number of rated BGs you can do per day/week (so, you suck, you get no points, get it?) On top of this, there's a limit to the number of conquest points you can get a week, so it's not World of Grindcraft. I'm going to fully expect a much smaller point gain on the arena side of things (i.e. no free pts for a 0 rating team).Quote:
No reason currentseason gear should be welfare. Everyone can obtain it, if they realy want it.
Look at the current model for Cataclysm - blues from justice points (HEROICS), blues from honor points (BGs) - valor points ONLY from raids/daily heroic dungeon (i.e. the daily requires ~50 days to acquire ONE piece). Why would anyone assume that conquest points wouldn't follow this method?
Keep in mind that seasons won't last 9 months, normally, and I hardly think anyone will be gearing up using the welfare system.
You guys do realize that the main reason that ratings were removed from gear was because they intentionally wanted to make arenas optional, right?
I understand those who feel that they have earned their gear but since everyone is going to get all new gear when cataclysm comes out and their lvl80 hard earned gear(or not) is only good for vendors or boosting virtual ego... i'll say welcome to this change :P
Those good players are still getting their ego boost stuff to show that they can do pretty good job in pvp
All noobs or players who have less time to farm get their gear easier and gear stat difference isn't big so everything is more balanced(=good thing) but still bad players are losing. imo more balanced game is more competitive and fun it will go and i think it's good thing.
Cry new changes, adapt and play hard go pro if you can't adapt this game isn't worth of crying even if you pay 50+ dollars / month
No one is crying about anything, we're just discussing the changes, and what our opinions are regarding the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeppis
It's pretty interesting to hear other people's point of view until someone comes in and starts name calling like a 6y/o.
Ya, and I think I speak for most when I say that its not the fact that other people get the gear that is the problem, it's the fact that it can be obtained by a hamster accendentialy running over your keyboard (metafor please understand:p)
If more people pvp, then great news more varity in teams and closer mmr. But gettin a equal red helmet instead of a blue one isn't much of a carrot to me.
Gee... Some posts here ain't even worth answering gg
tbh equal red helmet instead of a blue one woudnt be enough for me either, ofc i wanna see some progress in pvp too so you need to make something to get your gear and feel that you've earned it but i don't wanna see gear with better stats as reward so that very good players get a lot more advantage than regular joe vs poor sucker