Wow forums are blowing up again...this time it's win trading...

[Vyndree]

Personally, I just feel slightly bad for the point-buyers, as point-buying isn't against the TOS... but got the hammer based on association.

I don't feel bad for them in the slightest. They wanted a shortcut to gaining gear/points rather than doing it legitimately and shortcuts always have risk.

It's akin of buying a really sweet deal on the AH, except whoever posted that sweet deal really botted to get the item, and now you got a nice hefty 72 hour ban and the item taken away from you for botting. Oh, and all the other items you purchased from the auction house that month (since you were "clearly" participating in botting and economy exploitation) are taken away too as an extra measure, regardless of whether or not those items gained were legitimate.

Buying teams was confirmed legitimate by blizzard representatives (I believe I already linked that response), but what the team buyers didn't know is that they'd get slammed if the people they bought from wintraded in the past. Which, really, is something you can't really verify prior to purchase.

The buyers shouldn't be penalized for something they took no part in -- if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skill... then they shouldn't be looking at a 72 hour ban + all gear removed... for the entire SEASON.

[Boylston]

Tons of these problems go away when there is a 1-month cooldown on joining a team after having left one. Hell, maybe just even a 2-week cooldown.

[Buzzatronic]

It's akin of buying a really sweet deal on the AH, except whoever posted that sweet deal really botted to get the item, and now you got a nice hefty 72 hour ban and the item taken away from you for botting.

Not really the same thing but I think you know that already.

The buyers shouldn't be penalized for something they took no part in -- if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skill... then they shouldn't be looking at a 72 hour ban + all gear removed... for the entire SEASON.

I'm sorry but in my oh so humble opinion, there is nothing "legitimate" about buying a highly ranked team, then playing the minimum amount of games per week to leech as many arena points (resulting in gear) as possible from the purchased ranking before the team rating "rights" itself based on the skill of the players on that team.

Regardless of whether blizzard says it's ban-able, it's certainly not legitimate in my opinion which is why I have little sympathy for those caught up in the fact that it would seem such activities breed cheaters who wish to maximize their own profits.

I think with the changes coming in 2.4.2 it could be assumed that Blizzard doesn't find points gained in such a way "legitimate" either, even if the practice of getting points in such a way is not a ban-able offense.

Again, this is all my opinion ... feel free to have your own.

[Eteocles]

if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skill

Apply this to pve: Someone buys a lv30 and runs Gnomer, according to his(complete lack of) skill; wipes horribly. Gets nothing. Someone buys a lv60 char they have no prior experience playing; runs ramparts according to his skill; dies/wipes, group disbands, gets nothing. Now I'm not saying it's akin to buying chars(not at all), just the first closest example I could think of And it's a discussion, not intended as a flame or heated argument lol; personally I believe it boils down to starting off ahead of where you should be, skipping the "boring" early work and ending up with an achievement you didn't earn/don't own. But, that's just what I think and Blizzard has no issue with it(beyond the mass bannings they're doing to those related to win trading which is a different thing we all agree on) so more power to 'em if they want to pay to play the game literally instead of figuratively.

$15/mth to play
500g/week for points where they mostly lose(also feeding undeserving teams at higher lvls)
Watching people get bored when they have everything near-instantly with no work, thus complaining Blizz doesn't give them enough content: Priceless. :P

[Vyndree]

I'm sorry but in my oh so humble opinion, there is nothing "legitimate" about buying a highly ranked team, then playing the minimum amount of games per week to leech as many arena points (resulting in gear) as possible from the purchased ranking before the team rating "rights" itself based on the skill of the players on that team.

That's opinion.

How many games do you think it would take for a 1400's SKILL team to tank a 2k RATED team? They very quickly go where they belong -- so, in essence, they can pay an exorbant amount of money to buy a new team each week, or get their buddies to help them relevel their ratings back up so they oh-just-might-maybe not fail so miserably the next week?

2k rating purchased team comes up against a 1600's team and fails? How many points do you think they'll lose?

In this way, I think it's fair. If they want to spend their money on a higher rated team just so they can tank the ratings each week and maybe come out a few points further than they would have in the 1300's bracket, it's their money. If they deserve to lose, they will.

Regardless of whether blizzard says it's ban-able, it's certainly not legitimate in my opinion which is why I have little sympathy for those caught up in the fact that it would seem such activities breed cheaters who wish to maximize their own profits.

This reminds me of... "I don't care if Blizzard says it's ok... multiboxing is cheating"

There is some hurt involved, and I agree. However, I'm hesitant to say that it will go away in 2.4. 2k rated teams are still going to re-make teams and end up with a brand new 1500's rated team that they have to level back up into their appropriate bracket. It's a problem, for sure -- but banning people for wanting to get the most points per week in a LEGITIMATE fashion isn't the right way to do it.

I think with the changes coming in 2.4.2 it could be assumed that Blizzard doesn't find points gained in such a way "legitimate" either, even if the practice of getting points in such a way is not a ban-able offense.

We'll see when the new rules come out, but as of right now...

Selling points is currently not against our policies, but please note that they are always subject to change.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#3

Lynching a person when, as of right now, they are doing nothing wrong... That's just rather reminiscent of the behavior that we find so offensive from the "lol multibox is teh cheatzor" crowd.

Again, this is all my opinion ... feel free to have your own.

*nodnods* I do.

[Dawnstone]

I'm on the fence when it comes to this topic. I mainly PvE, with a splash of PvP rarely (about as often as I play other video games). Both sides have their points, but this whole ban-stick topic makes me wonder what stops Blizzard from doing the same to multiboxing PvP or multiboxing WoW in general. Sure, they currently say its ok... but they can reverse it (Forum QQ = Blizzard action?).

As far as Arena goes, I imagine a lot of folks who got hit with the ban stick are just canceling their account and waiting for newer games (Warham, Conan, etc). I know if my 70's got their gear stripped to nothing and suspended by Blizz I'd shut down all my accounts and move on.

[Vyndree]

Someone buys a lv60 char they have no prior experience playing; runs ramparts according to his skill; dies/wipes, group disbands, gets nothing. Now I'm not saying it's akin to buying chars(not at all), just the first closest example I could think of

That's exactly what I was getting at, Eteocles. Thanks.

Basically a sucky player will continue to suck on a purchased team, and the more they suck the faster the ratings will tank.

Now if they suck and WIN-TRADE to get around their natural level of suck to get more points then they should... Different story.

[Eteocles]

What I was getting at though is that they should suck their way to that point, not tele-suck to a future point ;p

OH GOD THE INNUENDOS

[Buzzatronic]

That's opinion.

Exactly but more specifically, it's my "oh so humble opinion" as I originally stated.

How many games do you think it would take for a 1400's SKILL team to tank a 2k RATED team?

It's hard to know for sure but if you make the assumption that the purchased team is always facing a team of the same rating, then they'll lose 16 points per game or 160 points per week if they lose their minimum 10 games. That would take 'em a few weeks to drop back down to the ~1400 range. In that time they've gained 822 points at the end of the first week (rating now 1840), 548 points at the end of the second week (rating now 1680), and 366 points at the end of the third week (rating now 1520). That's 1736 points "purchased" in 3 weeks assuming they lose 30 games in a row and never lose to higher ranked teams (meaning they lose less points).

At this point they buy another 2K team and start the 3 week cycle all over again with the money they grinded out from dailies since they didn't have to spend much time in the Arena since they already bought their points.

They very quickly go where they belong -- so, in essence, they can pay an exorbant amount of money to buy a new team each week, or get their buddies to help them relevel their ratings back up so they oh-just-might-maybe not fail so miserably the next week?

Teams don't drop from 2K to 1400 in a week unless they are dumb enough to play more than 10 games (losing them all), it's more like 3 which can earn a 5v5 team a considerable amount of purchased arena points.

2k rating purchased team comes up against a 1600's team and fails? How many points do you think they'll lose?

In 5v5 they'll lose 29.09 points in a 2000 vs 1600 game. Worst possible loss of points per game is 32 so if they buy a 2K team they'll lose a maximum of 320 points per week unless they are dumb enough to play more than 10 games. So instead of it taking 3-4 weeks to get back down to 1400, it'll take 2. Meanwhile they are still "earning" points they aren't earning at all, but instead purchased.

In this way, I think it's fair. If they want to spend their money on a higher rated team just so they can tank the ratings each week and maybe come out a few points further than they would have in the 1300's bracket, it's their money. If they deserve to lose, they will.

The same can be said for people who buy gold .. it's their money, but what happens when it breaks the whole environment? Also it's much more than "a few points" better than 1300's teams.

Also teams have to be built from 1500 to be sold which means there is a lot of 2K+ skilled players in the 1500-2000 brackets to "farm" their teams up with their full S3 gear, just so they can sell the team. How is that fair to the "legitimate" teams trying to actually compete at the ~1650 rating becuase that's where their skill level puts them? It's not and if battlegrounds has tought us anything, being rolled and honor/points farmed is not fun at all and that's what team selling creates, a system where the "legitimate" teams are farmed for the purposes of leveling up a team to sell to others.

This reminds me of... "I don't care if Blizzard says it's ok... multiboxing is cheating"

Just like buying a spot in a BT raid doesn't make the gear you got from it "legitimate", so does buying points/teams does not make the gear that results "legitimate".

The problem is people use the PvP gear gained from buying points/teams to hinder others in PvP (since gear still matters as much if not more than skill these days), while the BT epics someone rocks out in Shatt doesn't hurt others enjoyment of the game in the slightest.

There is some hurt involved, and I agree. However, I'm hesitant to say that it will go away in 2.4. 2k rated teams are still going to re-make teams and end up with a brand new 1500's rated team that they have to level back up into their appropriate bracket.

But it'll be much harder for people to do this since when they remake a 1500 team after selling their previous 2K team, that 1500 team will be matched against other 2K teams right away since the personal rating of the people who leveled up the first team to sell is still 2K. Leveling up multiple teams each week just to sell will become exponentially harder due to the personal ratings change.

It's a problem, for sure -- but banning people for wanting to get the most points per week in a LEGITIMATE fashion isn't the right way to do it.

You feel purchased points are legitimate, I do not. We will agree to disagree on this one.

Also if it's "a problem, for sure" and people exploit that problem for their own gain, doesn't that fall under the TOS guidelines of not exploiting a flaw in the game's design?

[Qlimax]

what stops Blizzard from doing the same to multiboxing PvP or multiboxing WoW in general. Sure, they currently say its ok... but they can reverse it (Forum QQ = Blizzard action?).

I am worried about the same, but there is nothing we can do but just continue to have fun m-boxing =). Its a beautiful sport is it not =P.

I think due to the ammount of posts approving of it may be a notifier that this will not happen, but there is always a possibility.



Qlimax