Mosg2's DK Manifesto

[Ualaa]

I think the AoE nature of Howling Blast is huge.
This is the one thing, that (in my mind; I might be unfairly biased however) puts the composition ahead of what I can do with a set of Ferals; the healer is moot, since either comp could run 4x/5x DPS and 0x/1x Healer.

Howling Blast applies damage to a lot of characters at once.
We will have HB glyphed, so this means Frost Fever on several targets at once.
And talented, Frost Fever is a snare.
So we a ranged AoE snare/dot, and punish those who choose to cleanse this dual effect... by re-HBing them, for damage plus the snare/dot again.

If Howling Blast was a single target... that would really suck.
Other changes wouldn't be as devastating, for example if the damage were capped or divided between the targets... we'd still be AoE snare/dotting several opponents, and they'd be unable to cleanse that.
The range is excellent, especially for the melee team.
Pretty much only need to IWT, to ensure we're facing the target.

But, not sold on this being an over the top team if HB were single target.

A lot of other compositions will also put out single target DPS faster than any Cataclysm era healer can keep up with.
The AoE nature, is what puts the team over the edge, imo... the opposition will have several targets to worry about, and if one is bubbled we can switch to another target easily enough.
If it were single target, this would still be a killer composition but not the clear winner.

As Shodokan pointed out, it's unlikely to be nerfed because of boxers, when we make up 0.08% (or whatever) of the player base.





The necrotic strike, basically ensures the main target cannot be healed.
So that is very strong pressure.
It almost guarantees a kill, in the initial attack (while we're immune to CC type effects), unless they have an immunity effect.

The only defense to this really are effects like Pain Suppression (effectively doubling the time to kill the target) or bubble (where the target cannot be killed for the duration).

If the target gets protected, our effects like Anti-Magic, Lichborne, Etc, have a relatively short duration; we'll have them for the initial engagement, but if we fail to drop someone in this time... we become rather vulnerable to knockback, fear, etc (but not vulnerable to snare/roots thanks to Death Grip).
We'd have a good chance at killing someone, during the opening because they'll likely have a few hurt toons for us to choose between, because of the AoE nature of the Howling Blast.

If we can down someone immediately, particularly if that is the key class for their composition (arena) or the most dangerous healer type around.... we get a huge edge.
If they bubble the initial target and survive the opening... the match gets a lot harder.

That reason alone, makes me very strongly consider a Disc Priest, for the Mass Dispel. Without a bubble or damage reduction effect, we basically have a guaranteed kill.
But the Disc Priest is a lot more fragile than a Pally.
So the decision is not easy.

Which is preferable:
a) Our healer is more fragile (Pain Suppression, PW: Shield, Self heals... for reduced damage but not negating damage), but virtually guarantees the initial target is dead. Fear Ward and Mass Dispel, superior AoE healing, etc.
b) Our healer has superb survival skills (bubble, plate, shield), but if their composition contains a skilled Pally (also has bubble), our initial target has very high survival probability.

I'd lean towards (A).
Because, in arena if they're down a healer in the first 5-10 seconds, they've probably lost even if we lose our healer right after.
In battlegrounds, if the healer/fear/knockback threat is gone fast, the mass of enemies probably don't have a chance.
Conversely, if our healer (B) survives the initial burst (assume Bubble is not dispelled), but occasionally we don't down a target in that initial opening period, how does the team fare without the defensive cooldowns aside from the trinket?

[Slats]

I'm going to level a priest with my DK's since I have one at 70. I really like the idea of offensive mass dispel and driving from the healrs perspective. I think that is what got me quite excited in Mosq video - playing from a different POV and having that large scale view of the battleground and having your DK"s charging around with IWT.

[Ualaa]

Well.. have my Priests, Hunters and Death Knights, all to 75th.
In time for Cataclysm, and therefore able to become 525 alchemists.

Was initially planning on taking the Priests to 80th, since I love the 4.x changes to Disc.
They got me rather excited about the team.




But then Mosg2 posts this manifesto and video.
And suddenly, DK's at 75th is not high enough... thanks buddy
I've got extras (not part of an active team) of all four potential healer types.

But the (gnome) DK's suddenly want 80th; they've managed to reacquire the leveling heirlooms.
And are in the process of trying to talk my Pally or Priest into the use of an experimental gnomish device which is reputed to transform the user into a cute Blood Elf...



Basic plan is to rush level, 5x alliance ferals and 4x blood elf DK's + 1x blood elf Priest or Pally.
Hopefully both teams are powerhouses.

[Shodokan]

Comparing paladin vs shaman... been thinking about it all day so here ya go.

Paladin
Buffs:
single 200 resist buffs
10% attack power
beacon

Offensive abilities:
Stun (1 min cooldown)
Holy shock damage
Exorcism (1.5 second cast)
Holy Wrath (in AOE situations the damage scaling is too high to be worth it, only good for helping burst)

Defensive abilities:
Divine protection (10 second cooldown, lasts 10 seconds) - this is a big one, 20% less damage at all times.
Divine shield - 5 min cooldown... i honestly think this is negatable.. yes it gets you out of hairy situations once every 5 mins... but this is usable a few times per battleground only... unlike arena it would not make or break the group
Cleanse - all healers get this though
Aura Mastery

Healing:
Holy shock - crap heal, it is critting for like 7k as is but generates holy power, instant and on 6 seconds
Flash of light - good fast heal, you get extra haste when you judge
Holy Light - mana efficient decently large heal
Beacon - heal yourself or others, likely going to be putting it on yourself for survivability.
Divine - high cost, high heal, long cast time
Light of Dawn - AOE heal that requires rampup time (more so if you aren't being attacked), heals like a wet noodle, lets not kid ourselves here. This requiring holy power nearly kills the ability in my opinion due to the amount you should be having, unless you are beaconing someone other than yourself and constantly healing them with other thing (as you said, it will almost all be overhealing so there is no point to it other than for this reason)
Holy Radiance - 30 second cooldown that has an AOE heal... but if your deathknights are running off to kill shit you have to follow them to make it useful and they need to be within

My positives for paladin healers:
Their single target heals are amazing
10% ap buff
The resists... but that is limited to a single resist
Divine favor really helps with making sure people stay alive... combined with wings
Aura mastery and the anti-silence is nice

My concerns:
Bubble is not as useful as we think, it lasts 8 seconds and it is on a 5 minuet cooldown, can be dispelled and broken with a decent amount of things one will have to deal with on the regular (mass dispell, heroic throw etc...)

Light of dawn heals like a wet noodle... like seriously in comparison to other AOE heals it is a joke. As a mana costing heal it was fine but as a sacrifice of saving a single toon to keep them all alive like with a powerful word of glory? nty. This spell is also a conal heal and heals everyone for the same amount which is a baseline of about 3000 (@ max holy power)... i'm not 100% sure how this scales with spell power and such but it just seems so lack luster.

Divine protection eats a GCD every 10 seconds. You want to keep your team up in hairy situations then you will not be able to take the damage if they get a 2-3 dps switch to you. Same rules apply to us as to others... if they gang up on a healer its done for no matter what the class is.

Paladin has to be reactive, meaning they cannot really be played in any sort of offensive manner, which can be important in high level play. It's all good that you can do damage but one spell needs you to not heal, another is usable every 15 seconds and hits for shit and exorcism would need to be used instead of a heal in a combat situation which COULD kill one of your dks.

Mana is also a huge problem for a paladin, he has no means to regen mana outside of passive regen and divine plea (which reduces healing, in hairy situations where you need mana and need to heal yourself... yes you can bubble but if you don't have it up you are fucked.

The paladin glyphs really don't add that much to the class... i mean seriously?

Shaman
Buffs:
All resist totem
Anti-Fear Totem
Healing totem
Fire elemental
Earth elemental
Heroism/Blood Lust

Offensive abilities:
Shocks - using them reduces mana cost of heals by 75%...and 30% more effective.
Lightning bolt - 40% of the damage comes back to you as mana
Lava burst - it can still hit decently high if you have flameshock up on the target... awesome for burst!
Chain Lightning - Help with AOEing if you feel it is really necessary
Fire nova
Hex - A CC... which can be super useful

Defensive abilities:
Earthshield - pre-emptive heal, heals when target is attacked... sorta like beacon but not quite as effective... though it only gets used when needed and when they are effected by it your heals heal for more.
Spiritwalker's Grace - You are able to run around and heal... every 2 mins.
Ancestral Resolve - When in hairy situations and you need to heal... you take 10% less damage.
Ancesteral Healing - Oh you crit? here... take 10% less damage for 15 seconds!
Cleanse - yep... another cleanse.
Natures swiftness - instacast heal
Natures guardian: when taken below 35% life you gain 15% extra total HP.

Healing:
Riptide: Instacast heal that applies a heal over time that can make the amount of healing they receive from chain heal higher. (6 second cooldown) hand over fist better than holy shock.
Mastery: Higher healing to those who need it more.
Chain heal: Smart heal that heals the entire group. More effective if the target has been hit with rip tide...grants tidal wave (30% crit on healing surge, 30% reduction in higher heals cast time) heals for much more than Light of Dawn but does have a cast time.
Healing wave: Glyphed 20% of your heals go to you meaning when you use this it is a mini beacon of light, holy light equiv
Greater healing wave (or w/e its called) : divine light equiv
Healing surge: flash of light equiv
Ancesteral spirit: EVERY time you crit (any jump of your chain heal) summons a spirit that is a smart heal for 30% of the heal that spawned it.
After a shock your heals are worth 30% more healing
Healing steam totem... it's like having holy radiance all the freaking time and gives you ALL resist!
Healing Rain - Preemptive AOE ground heal, lasts 10 seconds on a 10 second cooldown
Earthliving weapon - heal over time from random heals.. like 20%
Unleash weapon - equivalent of a 1 holy power word of glory and increases next heal by 20%
Cleanse fucking heals when it actually cleanses something!

My point of view on positives:
It takes less time to cast a chain heal than it does to get the holy power to use a light of dawn... heals for much more due to spellpower coefficients and is a smart heal. All of your talents really make you better at healing... not a bunch of random stuff that could be useful and need to proc (cough cough no cooldown holy shock) Healing surge is just as good as flash of light. Shaman heal targets for more based upon their health. Riptide absolutely shits on holy shock. You get many many more crits from your heals because of all the talents making your overall healing much higher. There are lots of extra ways to heal your targets for much much more than the mastery of a holy paladin.

This class can be played in both a preemptive manner with riptide, earth shield, healing rain and precasting chain heal etc. You do much more healing overall because of the increases to crit and overall healing from other talents. Mana-tide totem is really important and makes this class much more mana efficient than a paladin, especially with the regen and such from water shield. You also take less damage while casting than a paladin as they need to use a GCD to take less damage, you also make victims of your crit heals take less damage as well giving the team higher survivability.

You get an extra anti-fear, blood lust for burst when you can use it (hello sated going away when you die), healing stream for a nearly constant "uptime" of a holy radiance type thing. Healing stream when glyphed gives you nice resists to everything. You have a much more efficient means of getting mana back by helping attack and you can burst for much more than a paladin can. You can also heal on the move every 2 mins.

The kicker... you take 10% less damage and do not eat a GCD.

Downside:
You really don't have an o-shit button like the paladin other than an instant cast spell. Your AOE heal does have a cast time. You don't have the ability to pop cooldowns to heal more in "oshit" moments but your mastery makes up for that as you heal for more as your health goes down. You have a CC and not a stun... with a stun you guarantee a kill. You are not plate and therefore take slightly more damage baseline. There is no extra attack power or mana regen bonus from the buffs a paladin brings, but then again you have enough mana regen it doesn't really matter now does it?

[Shodokan]

To sum up my thoughts
Shaman don't have the defensive o-shit button that paladins have... but thats OK because it is on a 5 minuet cooldown. Will it save you in some situations? Of course. Will you have it up all the time? Maybe 5 times a battleground depending on the BG. Paladin's AOE heals like a wet noodle in comparison to the high coefficient scaling of a resto shaman's chain heal.

The shaman has so much more to offer than the paladin does to the group as a whole, it can also be played offensively with preemptive healing with things such as healing rain. Your group takes much less damage overall as a shaman because of the mechanics for AOE healing, crits, extra healing from crits, extra healing from using offensive spells, constant AOE heals from totems unless killed.

Shaman can help kill the target and keep the group alive at the same time, where as a paladin will require full time heal duty and need to use EVERY global cooldown to it's best ability, and requires sometimes up to 18 seconds to get the correct holy power for their AOE ability. Sure people will be beating on you but the amount of holy power one will get from that may only be enough to AOE heal in a situation once where as a shaman could have done so twice and for much more.

If you really think bubble (lasting 8 seconds on a 5 min cooldown) combined with the throughput of healing every two minuets opposed to increased healing at all times and more so if your team is lower in health like some situations will call for and requiring usage of precious healing GCD to make sure your paladin is taking the least amount of damage possible then thats fine. The SINGLE saving grace for a paladin is the ability to beacon them self and get healing as he heals the team, but the shaman can get that in a similar fashion as well... keep in mind at 85 we can't go spamming flash heals either, and on a paladin when you OOM you die, on a shaman when you OOM you drop your mana spring totem and keep on trucking.

Edit: one last thing... you need to beacon your paladin which means you need to heal YOURSELF to get extra holy power which is a waste of a GCD, unless you plan on wasting a heal GCD to put beacon on yourself when being attacked. Shaman also don't need to spec differently in order to make them more effective offensively like a paladin does.

As far as throughput when you are in trouble.... healing stream + healing rain + chain heal/other heals + earth shield + riptide.... theres A LOT there... especially if you lust.



To talk about priests
They are very good healers, but when focused in cata have the 1 trick pony fear and then are done for. Yes they get mass dispel but your damage output on a target with necrotic strike cannot be healed so if a healer bubbles(paladin) then it really doesn't matter. There might be some situations where massdispell comes into play where they lust or something but the only real use for this i see is to dispel an AOE fear and this wouldn't be a problem for the shaman either because of the tremmor totem... so ultimately it is the same utlity with a pulse time opposed to a cast time... and you still need to trinket your fear to use it in that manner.

Fear ward = single toon anti-fear every 3 mins... good but not spectacular.

Disc priests are great preemptive healers and pretty damn good at healing otherwise, but i just think that with you having no real AOE heal and you need to constantly be using GCD on shields while healing and micromanaging all of that... yes it is possible but is it really worth it to be less effective overall? (in my opinion)

Don't get me wrong... priests can be great and HIGHLY mobile, but they were intentionally nerfed it seems as all the priests i know in game complain about their healing all the time.

[Mamut]

Driving with the healer looks very interesting. I'd love to try it out but cant figure out how to display my team as if they were in my party while in BG's.

As much as i love my keybinds i think id be more comfortable being able to click heal sorta like healbot allows while spamming my keys to control the DK's (much like i do with my rets).

While using a paladin as a healer (in a full team of pallies mind you) i found it useful to cast Beacon of light on the healer in combination with Protector of the Innocent. Seemed to help me keep the healer up while spamming heals on my DPSers.

Anyway great discussion i hope to see more steams/vids of these bad boys in action to inspire me to keep leveling my DK's.

[Boylston]

A minor negative with the Shaman healer (but I still think Shodokan is convincing me it might be better...):

Chain heal graphic streaking toward the DK team is pretty much going to paint a big "Kill Me" sign on your healer. You'd be less conspicuous with a different healer. This only matters in BGs, of course.

[Mosg2]

@all:
I think people are overselling Priests to be honest. With HB doing AE damage swapping targets doesn't hurt that much, especially if you've been on their healer--That means you've been damaging their healer and all their melee dps at least. A simple swap and BOOM, dead targets. Who cares if you lose a second or two swapping targets? I seriously doubt that Mass Dispel is worth the squishiness of a Disc Priest.

Another thing to add to the Paladin/Shaman debate is this: Wind Shear will work exactly like Mind Freeze does since it's off the GCD. Every 6 seconds your target or focus gets Wind Sheared, on top of Mind Freeze, Strangulate, Arcane Torrent etc.

@Ualaa:
Sorry to make you level what could potentially be the most powerful multiboxed team in Cata. My apologies!

[zenga]

Disc priests are great preemptive healers and pretty damn good at healing otherwise, but i just think that with you having no real AOE heal and you need to constantly be using GCD on shields while healing and micromanaging all of that... yes it is possible but is it really worth it to be less effective overall? (in my opinion).

It depends what content you do, arena, or (rated) bg's ... but I don't find myself healing every other second. So what I do is having a key (scroll lock) that alters the keys for my disc priest until turned off. And it basically shields target 1, shield target 2, ... etc on every keypress on my dk's.

I seriously doubt that Mass Dispel is worth the squishiness of a Disc Priest.

Tbh I wouldn't call a disc priest squishy ... I do think that you overestimate the value of armor and shield when you are being focused.

Another thing to add to the Paladin/Shaman debate is this: Wind Shear will work exactly like Mind Freeze does since it's off the GCD. Every 6 seconds your target or focus gets Wind Sheared, on top of Mind Freeze, Strangulate, Arcane Torrent etc.

Wind shear and purge, that is a very strong toolbox for a resto shaman.

Again, I really think it depends on your playstyle, your class experience so far and what you 'like' to determine the best healer for this team, as will the type of pvp you run do. Personally I'm a huge fan of aoe fear + hungering cold to move out of heat. And I expect some fun with leap of faith as well, however I did not play beta.

I go with disc, because I like it and because I'm convinced it's the best choice for 'my' team

[BrothelMeister]

This thread has changed gears a little, but to bring it back to viability of the team compared to DK+4 Rets, Im not sold anymore. My DK+4 Rets still have pretty bad gear (3.8K AP; 300 resil) yet they are really starting to dominate targets.

The AoE from Howling Blast might be pretty nice for pressure, but the single target damage is actually not that high, especially with the increased health pools cata will bring. With Avenging Wrath, the Paladins can blow a single target (Preferably a dps) up in seconds, from 30 yards away, and the mana free healing is very effective, even with my awful gear.

In BGs, the 4 DK team might have high overall pressure, but getting an actual kill in might not be as easy with the fact that your burst is not as high as the 4 Rets. In arena, I see the 4 Rets as being even more superfluous since you will 5 toons DPSing, instead of 4, and in arena, when you blow up a target or two in mere seconds, the enemy team will usually give up. The 4 DK team would be able to put up its mortal strike effect, but could still end up escaping before you have time to apply more pressure, and it could also be dealing damage to you in that time frame.

4 DKs vs 4 Rets is really just the question of pressure vs Burst, and as discussed many a time, Burst is better for boxers ,as fast kills mean less time for the enemy to figure out what the hell is going on.