Cataclysm: The Ret Paladin- AKA Multi-Box Burst PVP Machines.

[Mercbeast]

Frost DK looks something like this for me.... at 80

13k howling blast crits
12k frost strike crits
17k obliterate crits

So you can technically get off 4x howling blast + 4x frost strike +2x plague/necrotic strike. or 3x obliterate + 4x frost strike which the frost strikes alone are like up to 50k burst if you crit... and since you get rando crits from killing machines and it resets every target you can be damn sure you are going to do a shitton of burst. So that means a group of 4 dks burst on a target just with frost strikes is close to 100k.

So burst is very very high.

In cata i will probrably be specing into both slowing mechanics and weaving plague strike into things and not always necrotic.


unholy's damage mostly comes from scourge strike, diseases and your death coils, it is very much not a burst spec in my opinion.

With a boxed group of DK's it is all about howling blast. I don't think that will change with cata. Solo DK pvp will change up their priorities since HB isn't going to scale as well as it does now, however we can still achieve in excess of 100k damage with 4 or 5 DK's off of two HB rotations. HBx4 HBx4, Grip, plague/nectrotic, frost strikes to finish. That is enough bursty DPS imo to come into a fight in a BG and if the HB's doesn't wipe everyone who isn't topped up off, you start picking the healers off whom are going to be going into healing overload to catch everyone you just dropped to <20% hp back up. With the way mana and healing is supposedly going to work, that right there will win you the impetus of the fight and put your healers way out in front of the mana healing battle.

I am starting to think that the 4DK+healer friend, 5 DK or Healer lead + 4DK is going to be a solid melee group. Huge burst, crazy control, good survivability.

[remanz]

At least stacking Dks would solve the "being kited problem." I am gonna try frost pvp more. and maybe level more DKs before cata hits. It sounds promising.

If 5 owls can just stealth => star fall to 2k ratings in S8, I guess anything is possible.

[Shodokan]

With a boxed group of DK's it is all about howling blast. I don't think that will change with cata. Solo DK pvp will change up their priorities since HB isn't going to scale as well as it does now, however we can still achieve in excess of 100k damage with 4 or 5 DK's off of two HB rotations. HBx4 HBx4, Grip, plague/nectrotic, frost strikes to finish. That is enough bursty DPS imo to come into a fight in a BG and if the HB's doesn't wipe everyone who isn't topped up off, you start picking the healers off whom are going to be going into healing overload to catch everyone you just dropped to <20% hp back up. With the way mana and healing is supposedly going to work, that right there will win you the impetus of the fight and put your healers way out in front of the mana healing battle.

I am starting to think that the 4DK+healer friend, 5 DK or Healer lead + 4DK is going to be a solid melee group. Huge burst, crazy control, good survivability.

In pvp period it's all about howling blast... why use obliterate when you can get necrotic/plague + howling for equal damage and more pressure =P For the highest burst though you use oblit, not that it is superior in any way shape or form other than pure damage output.

I personally am going to be running either holy pally or resto druid/shaman + dks. Likely holy pally or resto shaman... being able to beacon yourself for 5 mins is just too strong.

[Sephice]

In pvp period it's all about howling blast... why use obliterate when you can get necrotic/plague + howling for equal damage and more pressure =P

This!

I dont use obliterat, it need many points and a glyph, for an attack to much in my eyes

i use unholy stance and can keep all runes and rune power on cooldown and i can use more often ( in cata ) the heal debuff

And i can but the point in Death Coil

[heyaz]

I keep looking at my DK's in the low 60s, plate helrloom stuff ready to go (from the ret team a year ago) and want to level this up, but I just have a bad feeling it'll be the same old thing again - practically kill myself getting them to 80 and gearing up, fine tuning macros, theorycrafting for hours, only to step into PVP and watching a resto druid tank my entire team for 5 minutes, or have them get controlled and tossed around like any other team. The mechanics look so fun, but I'm just afraid of overall viability against skilled players, and even more so I fear a slight change or nerf that would kill the whole team.

I know you have done your homework and know all the counters and what to do in what situation and why they will excel here and there, but we all had that with dk+rets as well. 5 arcane torrents, multiple HoJ/repentence, wings, "freedom/clease a buddy", instant heals, 4x divine sac rotations, 4 bubbles, hand of protection on dk, stacking blessings and auras, the works. And sadly that team ended up being just a gimmick - instagib a couple bad pugs, maybe do some damage in AV, or bang your head agsinst the wall for several hundred games to get an 1800 weapon that you could get in solo play in like 2 nights. Was a major disappointment. And that was before 4.0...

Even the quad shaman in WOTLK weren't exactly a powerhouse, it was the weakest pvp class/spec solo and the plethora of aoe shut them down easily, and a bubble for each class and passive heals out the wazoo made the instagib just a relic of the past. I know many of us hit 2000, 2100, or even higher, but with garbage 50-60% win rates except for those who either arranged their queues well or straight up win traded. After Kromtor we all jumped on the dk/ret bandwagon only to see the resilience buff destroy that team - I just didn't have the heart left to do another 500+ game grind to 1800 or possibly 2000 with a sub 50% win rate and enough frustration to give me heart problems.

Be that as it may, I'm still looking into it and testing out some of the new frost stuff with a couple of my DKs. I'm sure it'll be a breeze 62-80, like the other melee team was, but it's just hard to know if they'll be worth anything until I can see first hand (or second?) what happens when you engage 3+ skilled, high resilience targets. I just remember leveling up my dk/ret team, absolutely steamrolling my way from 60-80 both in pve and pvp, then entering my first BGs and arenas to see them tossed around like ragdolls, and when I was able to get control of the situation, nothing would ever die. Would hate to see that happen again so fast

[Shodokan]

I keep looking at my DK's in the low 60s, plate helrloom stuff ready to go (from the ret team a year ago) and want to level this up, but I just have a bad feeling it'll be the same old thing again - practically kill myself getting them to 80 and gearing up, fine tuning macros, theorycrafting for hours, only to step into PVP and watching a resto druid tank my entire team for 5 minutes, or have them get controlled and tossed around like any other team. The mechanics look so fun, but I'm just afraid of overall viability against skilled players, and even more so I fear a slight change or nerf that would kill the whole team.

I know you have done your homework and know all the counters and what to do in what situation and why they will excel here and there, but we all had that with dk+rets as well. 5 arcane torrents, multiple HoJ/repentence, wings, "freedom/clease a buddy", instant heals, 4x divine sac rotations, 4 bubbles, hand of protection on dk, stacking blessings and auras, the works. And sadly that team ended up being just a gimmick - instagib a couple bad pugs, maybe do some damage in AV, or bang your head agsinst the wall for several hundred games to get an 1800 weapon that you could get in solo play in like 2 nights. Was a major disappointment.

Even the quad shaman in WOTLK weren't exactly a powerhouse, it was the weakest pvp class/spec solo and the plethora of aoe shut them down easily, and a bubble for each class and passive heals out the wazoo made the instagib just a relic of the past. I know many of us hit 2000, 2100, or even higher, but with garbage 50-60% win rates except for those who either arranged their queues well or straight up win traded. After Kromtor we all jumped on the dk/ret bandwagon only to see the resilience buff destroy that team - I just didn't have the heart left to do another 500+ game grind to 1800 or possibly 2000 with a sub 50% win rate and enough frustration to give me heart problems.

Be that as it may, I'm still looking into it and testing out some of the new frost stuff with a couple of my DKs. I'm sure it'll be a breeze 62-80, like the other melee team was, but it's just hard to know if they'll be worth anything until I can see first hand (or second?) what happens when you engage 3+ skilled, high resilience targets.

No one is forcing you to play the team, but this team with a dedi-healer is much better than DK/rets ever were and the damage output is twice as much if not more even at current state compared to what they were.

[Mercbeast]

In pvp period it's all about howling blast... why use obliterate when you can get necrotic/plague + howling for equal damage and more pressure =P For the highest burst though you use oblit, not that it is superior in any way shape or form other than pure damage output.

I personally am going to be running either holy pally or resto druid/shaman + dks. Likely holy pally or resto shaman... being able to beacon yourself for 5 mins is just too strong.

Why? Hungering cold is possibly the most over powered ability stacked DK's have at their disposal, at the very least it is as effective as HB. (HB MAKES the team, and without it the team imo isn't very effective, but having HB AND Hungering Cold is just the icing on the cake, so while I wouldn't play DK's with just hungering cold, I feel like hungering cold situationally is every bit as powerful as HB can be and in those situational encounters it is even more so, however HB is the bread and butter)

Running into a group you can light up in a matter of seconds? Use HB. Running into a big fight where you are outnumbered and you need to hold on for reinforcements? Pop hungering cold and switch to a single target DPS rotation. 10s later pop hungering cold again, repeat 4x on anyone in range of you. If you prioritize the cleansers first, melee DPS on you will be doing nothing.

I forsee hungering cold being even more powerful than HB spam. A timely bubble can stop your front loaded HB dump in its tracks. Taking the entire other team fighting you out of the fight while you waltz around picking your targets 1 at a time will be insane.

If you played DAOC, this is how 8 man melee groups successfully destroyed 50 to 60 man raid groups. Aoe Mesmerize which is exactly what hungering cold is, and then have your melee's run around insta gibbing all of the other teams support/healers in one GCD.

[Mercbeast]

I keep looking at my DK's in the low 60s, plate helrloom stuff ready to go (from the ret team a year ago) and want to level this up, but I just have a bad feeling it'll be the same old thing again - practically kill myself getting them to 80 and gearing up, fine tuning macros, theorycrafting for hours, only to step into PVP and watching a resto druid tank my entire team for 5 minutes, or have them get controlled and tossed around like any other team. The mechanics look so fun, but I'm just afraid of overall viability against skilled players, and even more so I fear a slight change or nerf that would kill the whole team.

I know you have done your homework and know all the counters and what to do in what situation and why they will excel here and there, but we all had that with dk+rets as well. 5 arcane torrents, multiple HoJ/repentence, wings, "freedom/clease a buddy", instant heals, 4x divine sac rotations, 4 bubbles, hand of protection on dk, stacking blessings and auras, the works. And sadly that team ended up being just a gimmick - instagib a couple bad pugs, maybe do some damage in AV, or bang your head agsinst the wall for several hundred games to get an 1800 weapon that you could get in solo play in like 2 nights. Was a major disappointment. And that was before 4.0...

Even the quad shaman in WOTLK weren't exactly a powerhouse, it was the weakest pvp class/spec solo and the plethora of aoe shut them down easily, and a bubble for each class and passive heals out the wazoo made the instagib just a relic of the past. I know many of us hit 2000, 2100, or even higher, but with garbage 50-60% win rates except for those who either arranged their queues well or straight up win traded. After Kromtor we all jumped on the dk/ret bandwagon only to see the resilience buff destroy that team - I just didn't have the heart left to do another 500+ game grind to 1800 or possibly 2000 with a sub 50% win rate and enough frustration to give me heart problems.

Be that as it may, I'm still looking into it and testing out some of the new frost stuff with a couple of my DKs. I'm sure it'll be a breeze 62-80, like the other melee team was, but it's just hard to know if they'll be worth anything until I can see first hand (or second?) what happens when you engage 3+ skilled, high resilience targets. I just remember leveling up my dk/ret team, absolutely steamrolling my way from 60-80 both in pve and pvp, then entering my first BGs and arenas to see them tossed around like ragdolls, and when I was able to get control of the situation, nothing would ever die. Would hate to see that happen again so fast

Here is the difference between ret paladins, and DK's. We can ignore everything else and while it is significant, this one thing is what makes the team.

Howling Blast.

Ranged, RANGED, aoe dps. Everything else is superfluous.

[Mosg2]

@Heyaz:

I am totally with you on the Paladins. I probably plugged more than 100k gold into them and it was all for naught. In the end you could smoke some people in BG's and do Heroics but 2k+ in arenas was just plain out for most people.

The one defining difference between this team and that team comes down to one issue: Healing. In Wrath, healing was just plain OP. If you didn't have MS you needed *insane* burst to get people down or you needed to setup an intricate CC chain. Or both. The difference? In Cata, healing is a precious commodity. Even with a healer blowing cooldowns and going for straight throughput with heals they can't keep someone up under the pressure of 4 DPS'ers. Period.

4 DK's are better in every way to the Rets. You have more DPS by far--And a lot of it's AE. You have the most reliable snare you could have as a boxer. You have all of the defensive/offensive tools so that once you pick a person, they WILL be in melee range of you. And during that time, you're negating most of the healing that they're getting. And you're interrupting them every 2.5 seconds.

All of that is backed up by a dedicated healer.

I guess what I'll leave you with is this: I'm so positive that this team is going to be the breakout team in Cata that all my DK's need is for each of them to get exalted with the Darkmoon Faire and they'll have The Insane.

[Boylston]

Doesn't this team fall apart with a Howling Blast nerf? I mean, a minor nerf would likely be OK... but any significant change to HB and the team suffers a major hit, right?