Rumours of Click To Move being removed.

[MadMilitia]

The problem there, as I see it, is two-fold:

1) You're asking for all parties to the discussion to be rational and logically consistent. There are only two groups that seem to generally meet that criteria: blizzard and multiboxers.

2) Liability. Blizzard won't ever flat out approve or provide rules for it as that would put them somewhat at the mercy of the whiny tits. Thus the "does not violate policy at this time" mantra. The one thing they have clearly defined is what defines a "bot" but again, the kiddies on the forums (usually PVPers) call multiboxers bots so often that you wonder whether there should be a reading comprehension test and psychological evaluation prior to allowing people to zone into a battleground or post on a forum.

I believe that not setting an expectation makes that problem worse.

So long as multiboxing remains in the grey area of their product allowances people will show up on forums and complain about it. Soon as it becomes protected and recognized as legitimate way to play their MMO the complaints will cease for the most part.

The reason is I think the whiny tits do have a bone to pick here. Not an absolute one mind. Two characters are hardly an advantage anywhere in the world but 40 characters dropping on a quest zone and wiping out anyone that comes close is quite unfair. It's also not fair to a 15 man raid to have 2/3rds their raid a multiboxer who most likely won't contribute to their win.

There needs to be contrast for us. So that we can one be protected against whiny tits and two, not be lumped in with someone who is really out to destroy the integrity of the game.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

The reason is I think the whiny tits do have a bone to pick here. Not an absolute one mind. Two characters are hardly an advantage anywhere in the world but 40 characters dropping on a quest zone and wiping out anyone that comes close is quite unfair. It's also not fair to a 15 man raid to have 2/3rds their raid a multiboxer who most likely won't contribute to their win.

That's interesting. Why is that any different than a gang of people wiping out all the quest NPCs in the crossroads for hours or some 100s camping noobs in the 20-40 zones?

[MadMilitia]

That's interesting. Why is that any different than a gang of people wiping out all the quest NPCs in the crossroads for hours or some 100s camping noobs in the 20-40 zones?

Well first it's different because it isn't 100 characters. The largest warspear raid I've seen for example has been about 40 characters spread out. A full raid. The difference between 40 scattered targets and a block of 100 dense targets is enormous for the performance of the game. At 100 in a block the phasing logic starts to act up so that they can phase in and out disrupting gameplay.

Then you have the logistics of getting even 10 people game for invading a quest hub for giggles. And then even more keeping them entertained long enough to ruin the day for someone else. I think it can be demonstrated in most examples of griefing that as the number of participants has reduced, the amount of time being griefed has increased. This is due to the fact that multiple people are less likely to wake up the same day wanting to do exactly the same thing. A multiboxer breaks that rule in half. So does a feral druid, coincidentally.

But anyway I think there are clear differences like stated. Not just those two though.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Then you have the logistics of getting even 10 people game for invading a quest hub for giggles. And then even more keeping them entertained long enough to ruin the day for someone else. I think it can be demonstrated in most examples of griefing that as the number of participants has reduced, the amount of time being griefed has increased. This is due to the fact that multiple people are less likely to wake up the same day wanting to do exactly the same thing. A multiboxer breaks that rule in half. So does a feral druid, coincidentally.

But anyway I think there are clear differences like stated. Not just those two though.

Look, I'll grant you the single obvious case of this 80millionboxer on that derp-vs-derp server. (Incidentally, if you see anyone mention "the spirit of the game" or "flagrant douchebaggery" or something similar, just remind them it's a RPVP server and then ask them if they've spent more than an hour in that server's trade chat.) That said, I have yet to meet someone that has played on PVP servers and hasn't had to deal with the exact opposite of your notion; specifically that it takes a lot less coordination to get 10 people to go camp crossroads than it does to get 4 geared 100s to go kick 'em out. Seriously. And this is the norm. Log in to some of the low-pop servers, create a toon on the minority side and turn on world PVP notifications.

My point, circuitous thought it may be, is that griefing is the norm in WoW and it's widespread; this guy is just a very visible example. Again, sample size of two does not a statistic make.

[MadMilitia]

Look, I'll grant you the single obvious case of this 80millionboxer on that derp-vs-derp server. (Incidentally, if you see anyone mention "the spirit of the game" or "flagrant douchebaggery" or something similar, just remind them it's a RPVP server and then ask them if they've spent more than an hour in that server's trade chat.) That said, I have yet to meet someone that has played on PVP servers and hasn't had to deal with the exact opposite of your notion; specifically that it takes a lot less coordination to get 10 people to go camp crossroads than it does to get 4 geared 100s to go kick 'em out. Seriously. And this is the norm. Log in to some of the low-pop servers, create a toon on the minority side and turn on world PVP notifications.

My point, circuitous thought it may be, is that griefing is the norm in WoW and it's widespread; this guy is just a very visible example. Again, sample size of two does not a statistic make.

I'll give you some scenarios from just last night.

One guy decides to try and bladestorm my 5 man group in Tannan. He got crushed obviously but he tried.

Another was griefing some others and I think maybe tried to kill me too by DoT porting up on a wall. There was some back and forth but it didn't last more than 10 minutes.

Then another tried to barrage my team. That didn't end well for him.

I then wiped due to four of them ganging up on me.

Mind these are all 1-3 people attempting to PvP me in the open world. Sometimes it happens that there are six or more of them but it isn't common. I'd say most of the time we're talking 1-3 people with the upper end being 5. The same goes for the camps in Volmar, Spires, Nagrand, etc. And those groups have never stuck around for more than an hour.

I play on Bleeding-Hollow on the Horde side. I've seen the Alliance side so I know how commonplace it is for Alliance players to get stepped on during PvE engagements. That isn't griefing though. Just some casual PvP that ends with a dead ally that comes and loots the corpse when everyone else clears out. It is pretty common for a 20-40 man raid party to have one or two stragglers that want to spend the rest of their day in the zone looking for PvP. What is rare is for the entire raid party to decide to spend the rest of the afternoon doing it.

[JohnGabriel]

I'll give you some scenarios from just last night.

One guy decides to try and bladestorm my 5 man group in Tannan. He got crushed obviously but he tried.

Another was griefing some others and I think maybe tried to kill me too by DoT porting up on a wall. There was some back and forth but it didn't last more than 10 minutes.

Then another tried to barrage my team. That didn't end well for him.

I then wiped due to four of them ganging up on me.

Mind these are all 1-3 people attempting to PvP me in the open world. Sometimes it happens that there are six or more of them but it isn't common. I'd say most of the time we're talking 1-3 people with the upper end being 5. The same goes for the camps in Volmar, Spires, Nagrand, etc. And those groups have never stuck around for more than an hour.

I play on Bleeding-Hollow on the Horde side. I've seen the Alliance side so I know how commonplace it is for Alliance players to get stepped on during PvE engagements. That isn't griefing though. Just some casual PvP that ends with a dead ally that comes and loots the corpse when everyone else clears out. It is pretty common for a 20-40 man raid party to have one or two stragglers that want to spend the rest of their day in the zone looking for PvP. What is rare is for the entire raid party to decide to spend the rest of the afternoon doing it.

On Bleeding Hollow Horde side as well and have had the same basic experience. Most people run from me but theres always one or two that come after me with gusto. Not people who hate boxers, I would just up and leave. But people actually feeling challenged by boxers and up for the task, not letting a wipe or two slow them down.

Though almost never see another boxer, its just not common.