Unleash elements + lava burst macro?

[zenga]

It's a dps loss because the extra damage from unleash elements never makes up for a lightning bolt. Not to mention that a LB can give you a stack of fulmination and can proc mastery, shortens the CD on elemental mastery and can return mana. The only time (in pve) where it's viable to cast UE is when you move.

[Yahtzee]

It's a dps loss because the extra damage from unleash elements never makes up for a lightning bolt. Not to mention that a LB can give you a stack of fulmination and can proc mastery, shortens the CD on elemental mastery and can return mana. The only time (in pve) where it's viable to cast UE is when you move.

Why are we assuming PvE here? Unless I missed something that the OP said, they didn't specify. I would assume a PvP scenerio, anyways, based upon the last macro they posted (FS/UE/LaBu/CL - > Sounds like trying to burst somebody down, not a PvE DPS rotation).

I would much rather use the global on UE in PvP and have a chance to gib somebody than wait for another cast to go off and have them get healed. I'll take the LiBo and Fulmination argument when 4.2 rolls around.

[death]

Why are we assuming PvE here? Unless I missed something that the OP said, they didn't specify. I would assume a PvP scenerio, anyways, based upon the last macro they posted (FS/UE/LaBu/CL - > Sounds like trying to burst somebody down, not a PvE DPS rotation).

I would much rather use the global on UE in PvP and have a chance to gib somebody than wait for another cast to go off and have them get healed. I'll take the LiBo and Fulmination argument when 4.2 rolls around.

yeah sorry guys i shouldve stated this is for pvp, i only multibox battleground atm

[zenga]

Why are we assuming PvE here? Unless I missed something that the OP said, they didn't specify. I would assume a PvP scenerio, anyways, based upon the last macro they posted (FS/UE/LaBu/CL - > Sounds like trying to burst somebody down, not a PvE DPS rotation).

I would much rather use the global on UE in PvP and have a chance to gib somebody than wait for another cast to go off and have them get healed. I'll take the LiBo and Fulmination argument when 4.2 rolls around.

It doesn't really matter if it's for pve or pvp, since UE consumes a global cd. As said it's only viable for when you need to move.
The only real scenario where it would be a gain is if you were to pop FS, UE and then Elemental Mastery with Lava Burst. And in that case it's very likely you'll need a mastery proc to go off to get an instant kill.

Obviously an argument that you can't get locked out of nature school when not having to cast LB is not factored in.

[Yahtzee]

It doesn't really matter if it's for pve or pvp, since UE consumes a global cd. As said it's only viable for when you need to move.
The only real scenario where it would be a gain is if you were to pop FS, UE and then Elemental Mastery with Lava Burst. And in that case it's very likely you'll need a mastery proc to go off to get an instant kill.

A solid 5 FS/UE/LaBu would instantly kill most people, aside from maybe tanks or people that stack stamina or "you can't kill me" cool-downs. I'd rather the 30% extra damage on 5 LaBu's hoping to one shot somebody than to hope to get a lightning bolt/chain lightning off after the fact to finish them off before they get healed.

That's not to say you couldn't use LiBo/CL after you sent out your LaBu. I'd just rather use that single second of GCD and heighten a chance at a kill rather than hope I get my second cast off to kill them, but I'd use that second cast either way just in case.

I don't think it's quite the waste you think it is in PvP. I can see where you're coming from about the PvE rotation, though. I can agree with that.

yeah sorry guys i shouldve stated this is for pvp, i only multibox battleground atm

Thanks for the confirmation, I figured as much.

[zenga]

A solid 5 FS/UE/LaBu would instantly kill most people, aside from maybe tanks or people that stack stamina or "you can't kill me" cool-downs. I'd rather the 30% extra damage on 5 LaBu's hoping to one shot somebody than to hope to get a lightning bolt/chain lightning off after the fact to finish them off before they get healed.

That's not to say you couldn't use LiBo/CL after you sent out your LaBu. I'd just rather use that single second of GCD and heighten a chance at a kill rather than hope I get my second cast off to kill them, but I'd use that second cast either way just in case.

I don't know what haste values you have, but I have best in slot pvp gear and almost full bis heroic raid gear, and on nether of them I'm close to a 1 second global cooldown.

So the math is fairly simple: the UE damage + 30% lvb damage does not account to the benefit of a lightning bolt (as I described above): unless you move or use it with EM. If you wanna keep using UE cause you prefer that, by all means be my guest. That doesn't mean you are right though

[Yahtzee]

I don't know what haste values you have, but I have best in slot pvp gear and almost full bis heroic raid gear, and on nether of them I'm close to a 1 second global cooldown.

So the math is fairly simple: the UE damage + 30% lvb damage does not account to the benefit of a lightning bolt (as I described above): unless you move or use it with EM. If you wanna keep using UE cause you prefer that, by all means be my guest. That doesn't mean you are right though

I understand the GCD isn't 1 second, I'll add a tilde for you next time to show the discrepancy. My point was that it was marginal trade-off in the OP's position.

I think you're missing my point entirely. I'm not arguing that the lightning bolt wouldn't do more damage. Yes, lightning bolt would do more damage, you're right, yes, I understand that. I'm saying the extra damage on the lava burst, in a setting where you're playing 4-5 elemental shamans, and thus hitting somebody with 4-5 lava bursts, the 30% extra damage on all of those is the difference between somebody dying and living, and the time between your lava burst hitting somebody and the subsequent lightning bolt hitting them is plenty of reaction time to prevent their death.

Having one less person to worry about in the fray is a lot more beneficial (in my opinion, I stress, opinion) than a stack of lightning shield that you're likely to lose (Like I said, 4.2, I'd be singing a different tune.), the possible chance for extra mana or the extra damage on the chart instead of a killing blow. It's not a 1:1 trade-off in benefit, nor is PvP as clear cut as PvE in terms of what you should be casting when.

You can throw numbers all you want, however, that doesn't mean you are right though. You're welcome to your opinion just as I am welcome to mine, PvP is extremely situational, and I'm sure you're right in some situatons, and I'm sure I'm right in others.

[zenga]

I understand the GCD isn't 1 second, I'll add a tilde for you next time to show the discrepancy. My point was that it was marginal trade-off in the OP's position.

I think you're missing my point entirely. I'm not arguing that the lightning bolt wouldn't do more damage. Yes, lightning bolt would do more damage, you're right, yes, I understand that. I'm saying the extra damage on the lava burst, in a setting where you're playing 4-5 elemental shamans, and thus hitting somebody with 4-5 lava bursts, the 30% extra damage on all of those is the difference between somebody dying and living, and the time between your lava burst hitting somebody and the subsequent lightning bolt hitting them is plenty of reaction time to prevent their death.

Having one less person to worry about in the fray is a lot more beneficial (in my opinion, I stress, opinion) than a stack of lightning shield that you're likely to lose (Like I said, 4.2, I'd be singing a different tune.), the possible chance for extra mana or the extra damage on the chart instead of a killing blow. It's not a 1:1 trade-off in benefit, nor is PvP as clear cut as PvE in terms of what you should be casting when.

You can throw numbers all you want, however, that doesn't mean you are right though. You're welcome to your opinion just as I am welcome to mine, PvP is extremely situational, and I'm sure you're right in some situatons, and I'm sure I'm right in others.

First off, after reading my previous post again it may sound cocky, like a dick, etc ... that's not my intention so apologies if you felt it like that.

I don't think I'm missing your point. You say that the total damage (multiplied by amount of ele's in your team) from FS+UE+lvB will kill a player. And that it's *better* than FS+LvB+LB/CL to global one. Your main argument being that a healer can react between LvB and and LB/CL.

And again what you forget is your ramp up time: FS + gcd, UE + gcd, LvB cast. There are 2 global cooldowns and a lava burst cast time between applying fs and when your LvB hits, or nearly 4 seconds (less if you have extreme haste times and glyph of shocking). In this setting you only have LvB that can proc mastery.

I'm saying FS + gcd, LvB cast (+ mastery), CL/LB cast (+ mastery) grants you more chance to kill a target, simply because it does more damage in the same timeframe.

Now assume the healer isn't completely retarded, in your approach he has 1 extra global cooldown time to react to the target than in what I'm saying. The amount of time the healer has for a dispell or a cooldown/big heal on the target is in your scenario longer than in mine. In either scenario the healer has a chance to get a heal off, but due to the fact that CL/LB can proc mastery you deal more damage in roughly the same amount of time by NOT casting UE, and increasing your chances for a kill.

For the record, I've said that EM+UE/LvB is a valid method, as well as UE being cool when you are on the move. And we are talking 4.1 here.