Talking to Bornakk about Raid Rewards in Cata

[MiRai]

If the number of persons required to start a guild formed any part of the basis of a raid, then from Vanilla we'd have all required 40 signatures for a guild to be formed. That the number of signatures required to form a guild is now the same as the number of players the smallest raid will maximally hold is pure coincidence.

Note to that as little as two toons can form a raid.

I wasn't comparing guilds to raids, I was comparing guilds to guilds. Your 5 characters technically aren't a guild, they're half of a guild; but Blizzard is giving us a little leeway by saying 7/10 and 20/25 is acceptable. Those 3 sentences I wrote were their own separate ideas.

On multiboxers joining forces:
Why should we have to first of all?

Because Blizzard said so. They obviously want > 50% of the raid make up to be from the same guild.

On multiboxers joining forces:
Secondly, it means that where each of us once had our own personal guild banks accessable without the necessity of logging over characters, now that guild bank would have to be shared. I already make quite good use of all 6 of my own guilds bank tabs.

As Khatovar said, how difficult is it to leave an alt in your guild to hold the bank? I have my main in a raiding guild, where we all share the guild bank. I have 4 alts with 4 different guild banks holding all kinds of illegal goods from south of the border. My main will continue to get achievements and guild perks, while the alts, that I could care less about, don't get squat.

TIME TO START 10 BOXING!

[Bot]

the idea behind guild vaults is not to give single players more storage space... moreover a single player (regardless of the number of characters) does not comprise a guild. you may be able to have a guild with only a single character in it but that is surely not the intention of the mechanic. it is merely a fail safe to save a poor guild master from not loosing everything if there's a mass exodus or some such thing. I think your assumptions that blizzard doesn't like small guilds are kind of based around some misguided assumptions.

it should be noted that a guild is traditionally a group of people who work together for a common goal.

that said it is sad to see that guild alliances will be at a slight disadvantage when it comes to raiding but that's just the way the cookie crumbles.

[ghonosyph]

I completely understand, and even accept, I won't get the full bonuses, as I intend on keeping my own guild to myself. But the question remains, and I've yet to see a single valid answer to is why should small guilds be discouraged? What harm have they done? How have they failed to meet up to the expectations of what a guild is or should be?

And in WHAT way are small guilds being "discouraged"? Bigger guilds have more people, more options, more achievements, more access to the rewards?

... why? because they have MORE people. The rate of return is higher, why? Because blizzard wants to punish players for being in a small guild right? No, thats doubtful. In fact, the rate of return on leveling the guild is going to be adjusted, its still in beta and there are still changes to come. To say you're being punished from staying in small groups is silly imo, i see no punishment from the implementation, just that bigger is better... for obvious reasons.

Even more so, for those small guilds that genuinely are 5 or so people, by what measure have you discounted their comradery over a guild of 100 people. In fact, I'd go so far as to argue that the community spirit inside a 5 person guild is likely to far exceed the almost stranger-like association of a guild of 500 people.

I've got no doubt about this. The statement was made short due to my cell phone not quite having enough power to finish the train of thought. I used to be in a casual raiding guild, 10 man strictly. It was some of the best times in wow i've ever experienced. We raided kara religiously, and we did well. Did we ever do The eye, or black temple? no, absolutely not. We pugged more for gruuls lair on occasion, but it was always fun no matter wipes or whatever. There's nothing wrong with having a small guild, but to say that you're being punished because you cant get all the best rewards as fast or as a large guild might be able doesn't mean thats a punishment. It means that a larger guild has more access, because they have more options, because they have a plenty more people. I'm VERY sure that bliz will change the way these guild things work before beta ends and things will work out a little differently.

quoted because well... read it :P

the idea behind guild vaults is not to give single players more storage space... moreover a single player (regardless of the number of characters) does not comprise a guild. you may be able to have a guild with only a single character in it but that is surely not the intention of the mechanic. <--- THIS right here is the reason i see most 5 boxers are arguing about this guild perk thing. Its NOT the intention of the mechanic, and most seem to argue "i like my guild because i have access to my own guild bank" ... make an alt and store your stuff, then join a guild with some friends? I like being solo, but i also enjoy my raiding guild. I have friends in game, lots of them.

The attitudes of " why should i have to" are imo foolish and arrogant. You shouldn't have to... you DON'T have to... If you want full advantage of all the awesomeness, join a guild, make relationships/friends! Blizzard WANTS people to be social... its part of the experience of a multimassive online rpg. Just because multiboxing allows us to play the game as if it were basically solo, doesn't really mean its a solo game. amirite?

[Maxion]

Any guild of any size will most likely be able to unlock all the perks, just slower.

[OzPhoenix]

Who is being denied? You keep talking like Blizzard is only allowing guild advancement via this one tiny aspect. They aren't, and I find it kind of laughable that you talk about Blizzard denying players something, when these small guilds are built entirely around preventing other players from joining.

/sigh Show me where, ever, just once, I have said, inferred, hinted or otherwise stated that this would be closing off a small guilds only avenue of advancement? Anywhere.......

You explain to me why they should? You say 5, but why stop there? I can still be the highest represented guild just playing 2 toons in a 25 man raid, especially in a world full of vanity guilds. So why 5?

Because as a natural principle of game development wouldn't you want any new system to be open to all players? If the system weren't open to all playstyles shouldn't there be a specific reason for that? Why do I have to prove that 5-player guilds are entitled to this? The burden of proof should be on the other side proving why 5 player guilds shouldn't be entitled to this.

I don't read the WoW forums, thanks. And I never said anything about this preventing anyone from doing whatever they want, what I am pointing out is people seem to think they should be entitled to every single thing no matter how they play, and if BLizzard doesn't agree, then they have something against you and they're actively out to get you. Like this

Since small guilds are being slightly disadvantaged by the 7/10 raid requirement I think it is fair to say that this system is slightly anti-small guild. However, in stating that, I've never put forward a persecution complex and claimed that this stance was motivated by an attempt somehow to personally get me. What other people do is relevant to the merits of the points I'm putting forward, so why bring those peoples reactions into this discussion.

And how exactly does that prevent alts from other guilds from JOINING your guild and YOUR alts joining THEIR guild? No one loses banks, no one loses their guild name and now you've got 2 separate raid forces so both guilds win.

Because the alts won't be raiding. So there's nothing gained by having 2 alts of one multiboxer join the other multiboxers guild, unless they're actually going to be there in the raid, in which case, his own toons won't.

But you seem to be far more interested in proving this is some sort of persecution than being happy with the fact that we've all, yes ALL, got a new collection of toys to play with in guild perks.

I refute that completely. I have never once claimed this as some sort of personal persecution of me by Blizzard. I've merely stated simple facts i) the system discriminates against small guilds and ii) no-one at Blizzard nor certainly in this thread has provided a valid justification for that discrimination.

Nor have I sought to overplay the scope of the discrimination. It merely closes off one - and only one - avenue for small guild advancement. Small guilds, mine included, will still have plenty of opportunity to advance and I am, on the whole, very happy with this system. I'm just pointing out one of its defects is all.

[Iceorbz]

Any guild of any size will most likely be able to unlock all the perks, just slower.

Probability of a large guild unlocking = 1. Probability of a small guild unlocking = 1. It will be possible, it's just like saying I'm going to travel to another state. Whether I get there by car, train, plane, bike or foot. I will get there, the duration of the journey is the only variable.

Even though I am in a rather large guild and these perks look cool and all, I see something sinister in the future coming from the beginning process of integrating guilds into larger "social" guilds. Something with RealID keeps popping into my head for some reason. Also guild micro transactions, I know right, grab the toil foil hat.

By adding perks for joining and taking away anything you have contributed when leaving they are slowly forcing the players hand. I am sure they will add more powerful perks down the road as people become more accustomed/tolerate to the changes.

You know the onlything that I thought would be fucked up, is if say you are in a hardcore guild.. how often have one of the officers just /gkicked someone messing around. That would be screwed up, and I would hope there are some restrictions in place to prevent that lol. The Rep should have some sort of decay by day (like 10%) so that if a person is booted, for just a few minutes nothing happens.

Oz - You also need to consider, that even if your group makes up 50% of the raid that != to 50% of the of the work done, why should your guild get credit? At 7/10 we are almost certain that greater then 50% of the work was done by your guild. I never have really seen the point of super small guilds. From everquest, AO, Shadowbane, EQ2, WoW all have a greater benefit when guilds have more players. Now, quantity does != quality, and quality is certainly > quantity. You really must look at the purpose of a guild, and as some have stated previously, it's not for you to be there by yourself. The game is designed for us to band together and slay the horde or alliance, and conquer the world together. By a lack of restrictions, we as multiboxers, are able to utilize guild's for bank storage, and avoid the entire social purpose of it.

[Mercurio]

My opinion is that Blizzard has one major goal with the changes they've been making (or trying to make) lately.

They have realized a huge flaw in the "social" part of the internet - anonymity has a tendency to make people act like total jerks. My opinion is that most players entered into this game with the intention of being forthright and helpful, but that they were mistreated by a minority, saw almost no consequences for the offenders, and felt forced down the road of wariness or even "screw them because I've been screwed", "screw them because they've probably screwed someone else", or "screw them before they screw me" (the last one is the major reason PvP realms are such a pita).

Making leaving a guild have more consequences for players is a small way to create consequences for bad behavior. RealID also ups the ante by taking some of the anonymity away (can't just "hide" by switching to an alt). RealID on the forums was expressly listed as a way to make the forums a bit more like a real community (that had some consequences).

A personal case in point: A few months ago I saved up emblems of frost, bought some Primordial Saronite and Titansteel Bars, and asked in chat for someone to make some ilvl 264 boots for me. Someone said they could, so I traded them the mats.... and they insta-logged. They logged back on later but were unresponsive to my polite tells. What recourse did I have? I did the only thing I could - figured out who his guild leader was, sent him tells explaining the situation, and he asked the guy for clarification. The guy must have sensed he might get kicked, so he went and raided the guild bank. The guild leader kicked him and put in numerous tickets explaining the situation (as did I) to Blizzard asking for my (and his guild's) goods to be returned. We only got form letter responses and no resolution. It was back when the mats felt like a fairly substantial investment and I was sad to lose it. Would things have been different if he had been with the guild for a while and might lose the perks by being a jerk? Probably not, but it might have.

I believe forcing more people to be more social (7/10 in a raid instead of 5/10) in a community that requires a bit more commitment is just a small step in their larger goal to make our little game a bit more friendly. That goal I applaud.

[ElectronDF]

So you really think deterents stop people from doing stuff? I will agree that mutual distruction like nuclear weapons would give people pause, but other than that, I don't think they do. Do people that know 100% what will happen to them not do crimes? No, they do it and hope they get away with it. Do people on death row feel bad for what they did? Not sure, but some of them are just crazy and would kill again if let out. "Some people just like to see the world burn."

I don't see how being in a guild helps people so much if there are so many people PUGing raids. I see pretty much a 10 man 4-6 times a night full of people with guild tags. I see 25 man 2 times a night again, full of people with guilds? How was being in a guild helping them? If they want to incourage guilds, fine, but for me, I want to play with thousands of people, not just 100. Chance of people in 100 going to run old raids? Not so much unless you deliberately join a guild that does that. But then, what if you want to other stuff? To me there is too much stuff that I want to do that doesn't match 100% with a guild of only 100 people. But I can find people in the 1000's of people online that does match. Multiply that by 15 servers and you could find people to do anything anytime anywhere.

[Khatovar]

/sigh Show me where, ever, just once, I have said, inferred, hinted or otherwise stated that this would be closing off a small guilds only avenue of advancement? Anywhere.......

First, I said people, not YOU. Second, I never said that ANYONE said that this is the only way to level, I said that people are acting like the only way to level with significant progress is through a big guild. Nowhere in that sentence did I say anything about raiding. What I inferred, however, is that it's all just more whiny Chicken Little BS.

Because as a natural principle of game development wouldn't you want any new system to be open to all players?

Um, yeah, that's why anyone who has a guild in WoW will be able to participate in the Guild Perks system, no matter the size of the guild. Because you gain experience in many different ways, including small group and solo play.

If the system weren't open to all playstyles shouldn't there be a specific reason for that?

The system IS open to all playstyles.

Why do I have to prove that 5-player guilds are entitled to this? The burden of proof should be on the other side proving why 5 player guilds shouldn't be entitled to this.

You want a reason? Because come raid night, when you're up against non-trivial content in appropriate gear, if 3 people don't show up, a real guild, who actually raids together still has a chance of being able to make some progress in that raid. Likewise, 20 people could probably work through a 25 man, 12 certainly aren't. Anyone else they pug would just be a bonus to make things easier.

Since small guilds are being slightly disadvantaged by the 7/10 raid requirement I think it is fair to say that this system is slightly anti-small guild.

And I think it's far more appropriate to say it's the price you pay for not wanting to participate in a certain aspect of the game. When someone whispers you saying "What kind of guild are you in?" you don't say you're a raiding guild. You don't even say you're a social guild, or a leveling guild. You're 1 guy chillin by himself. You're a vanity guild. You're not excluded from raiding, you can raid all you want, you're just not going to get a bonus for it just because you fill half the slots while being as anti-social as possible. And honestly, 5 or 7, vanity and private guilds are still unlikely to get the raid-lead bonus because most of them aren't raiding together. Most of the ones I've seen through the years still have to PuG 5-mans.

I could turn around and say :

it's anti massive guild - because only the top 20 contributors per day advance the guild,
anti RP guild - because there is no RP bonuses and you have to participate in normal content {quests, kills, instances} to get guild XP
anti PVE guild and/or anti PvP guild - because people who don't do PvE/P aren't getting the same bonuses as people who do

Blizzard should just scrap the whole thing because it's all unfair and too many playstyles are excluded, amirite?

[Owltoid]

I do appreciate the calm discussion in this thread

I'm not sure it matters if Blizzard is discriminating against small guilds. Blizzard always favors size. 25-man raids get better (or more in Cata) loot. 5 man arena teams get more points than 3 man.

Blizzard has done a great job of making a ton of solo content. You could roll new toons and quest for a looong time if someone didn't want to deal with anyone else. They have also made a huge multiplayer aspect to the game, and I don't have a problem with them rewarding more people working together. In this case, since the rewards are eventually available to all guilds, they're not putting that big of an advantage on big guilds.