This is an overview of the comp and the strengths it brings to your team. There's a few secrets in here on why this comp is so good that I haven't openly broadcasted before.
I hope it helps you narrow down your team or find one you enjoy.
Primary strengths of this team: Constant DPS even while moving, amazing utility and very defensive healing and strong damage stopping cooldowns in situations where mechanics were missed or getting overwhelmed.
In BFA Season 4 I've done up to a +15 Mythic for PvE, fully cleared both horrific visions on a 5 mask and successfully raided current content with it. It is very well rounded for any task.
Weaknesses: It is not suited for PvP at this time, due to /follow.
08-11-2020, 10:19 AM
Lyonheart
Thanks for this! I have been "wasting" a GCD on the pet heal! I'm sure that will improve my hunter DPS a lot. I am so used to my paly tank healing himself with HotP..but its better to save it for "oh shit, someones about to die!" moments! I have not played this comp a lot because i have not had any ambitions to do high mythic+ this expansion. It was more fun gearing up via weekly conquest rewards for me. Mostly due to being busy at work. But this will help dial them in a bit! I still need to set up the freezing trap in isboxer like you!
08-14-2020, 06:14 PM
daviddoran
Thank you for the bit on the pet heal. I checked my GSE macro that I got from wowlazymacros and found it was set to heal the pet, so I changed that to focus, as I already have the tank focused for misdirect.
I might have to look into that ISBoxer step macro, to make it more controlled as you have it, rather than relying on GSE to fire it off whenever it gets the chance.
08-24-2020, 12:24 AM
slapkey
I heard you say in a recent VOD that you switched from GSE to native ISBoxer for your DPS rotations. Could you show how you did that with you hunters? My current one just mashes a bunch of abilities and I'm sure I'm leaving a lot of DPS on the table.
08-28-2020, 10:23 AM
kate
Quote:
Originally Posted by slapkey
I heard you say in a recent VOD that you switched from GSE to native ISBoxer for your DPS rotations. Could you show how you did that with you hunters? My current one just mashes a bunch of abilities and I'm sure I'm leaving a lot of DPS on the table.
Ditto! Mine is functionally equivalent to having a popsicle stick taped to my number keys. I'd love to see what someone having more success is using.
08-28-2020, 10:27 AM
Ellay
I made a short video showing it that will be up tomorrow. Heres the link https://youtu.be/l0kOP56y0mU
but I'm extremely happy with Isboxer performance over GSE, as well as just using Isboxer for everything now instead of ingame macros for anything.
It seems to be a lot more fluid and I have no idea why but it's a good thing!
I've slowly moved everything over and I bet Mirai has a really good video on this already so mine will probably butcher the right method.
09-09-2020, 07:23 AM
nodoze
I really liked this. What changes do you think you will make for ShadowLands (if any)? I heard that BM Hunters were no longer the 'hard carry" in ShadowLands like they are in BFA but I was hoping 3 BM Hunters with Spirit Pets are still strong (especially for a boxer).
Assuming 3 BM Hunters with spirit pets are still viable which Tank and Healer combo do you think are best for these 3 DPS in ShadowLands?
I realize it is still early but was watching some vidoes on early rankings of best tanks and healers for shadowlands and it got me thinking about your team.
09-09-2020, 10:16 AM
Ellay
It's still really early, to tell but I would say all are viable options.
My goal is to level every tank/healer and then test them out for us. For myself Prot Paladin / Resto Shaman is my style and they are staying similar to what they are.
If you get a Resto druid working though (this is technically the strongest healer for our layout due to being able to heal while moving), your options for Tank really open up to your liking, which I would then pick something like a DK or Brewmaster. DK for that self carry potential and Brew because you literally spend 0 focus on it for being almost 100% optimized from their easy rotation.
09-09-2020, 11:29 AM
nodoze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellay
It's still really early, to tell but I would say all are viable options.
My goal is to level every tank/healer and then test them out for us. For myself Prot Paladin / Resto Shaman is my style and they are staying similar to what they are.
If you get a Resto druid working though (this is technically the strongest healer for our layout due to being able to heal while moving), your options for Tank really open up to your liking, which I would then pick something like a DK or Brewmaster. DK for that self carry potential and Brew because you literally spend 0 focus on it for being almost 100% optimized from their easy rotation.
That sounds consistent with what I was thinking after listening to the early rankings of both Tanks and Healers... I really look forward to hearing your thoughts from a multiboxer perspective after you try various.
In Vanilla i wasn't really boxing (just running 2 clients with no tools) but from BC->WoTLK I had every class capped and tried multiple different 5box and 10box teams and really liked Paladin Tank+4 Shaman though I also liked to solo with my Hunter from time to time.
Historically for non boxing mains in Raids I like to main Healer and sometimes tank so I tended to like Paladin mains (Paladin be non-boxing raid Healer and dual specs to tank in my 5box or 10box team). Being able to do multiple roles from a main that includes both Healing and at least off tanking also helped me gravitate to Druids in addition to Paladins. With the above in mind I generally prefer to main Hybrid classes and gravitate towards the ones that can do Tank, Healer, & DPS roles...
The above being said, seeing in the ranking videos that Paladin Healers now need to run in melee range attacking to be optimal I am thinking that doesn't fit my playstyle even when just playing 1 client and certainly not when multi-boxing... I was initially glad to hear that Paladin tanks were early ranked fairly high but then was a little discouraged to hear they are relatively kinda the "Glass Cannon" of tanks which also concerns from a mult-boxing perspective so I am thinking of not maining a Paladin if I go ShadowLands... When boxing I prefer my tank to be able to face tank as much as possible and be more on the survivable side than high DPS side.
After watching both ranking videos (and multiple others spotlighting various classes) I was thinking of maining a Druid healer for progression raiding (and 5box healing when not raiding) and maybe DeathKnight (Blood) would maybe be the best choice for me for a dedicated 5box tank without any other input (I do really like Shaman Chain Heals but was thinking Druid mobility and hots and AoE may be best for me plus druid opens up 4 roles for a main even if it doesn't perform great in all 4 roles). I agree that BrewMaster also sounded like a good option but I just can't yet conceptualize Monk Tanks as I stopped playing full time after WoTLK & a little Cata. I resubbed at least briefly for most of the expansions to try them but pretty much skipped monks and pandas in general... I never really mained a DeathKnight for tanking but did do all 3 DK specs back in the day and mainly played them for PVP (4DK+Paladin) until that got nerfed... I did like DemonHunters and a DH tank sounded good if running 3 ranged magic DPS but I really like the idea of the 3 BM hunters for me...
Anyways those were my initial thoughts. I really liked your video and thanks to you am thinking of doing 3BM Hunters+Tank+Healer for ShadowLands since I have my account subscriptions active for Classic Warcraft already...
For reference, in case it helps others, the videos I watched are (I don't know if these are the best):
Otherwise I also watched yumytv's more in depth review of each healer and some other random videos but those 3 were the main ones that stick out in my head as the most helpful...
Thanks again and please report back your thoughts on combos after doing some testing.
09-09-2020, 02:11 PM
Feint90
DK and monks are both good picks I think.
DK's always a strong pick because of the self healing and with the return of AMZ you have a good party wide magic defensive + he gives a battle rez (which is important to consider if you don't pick druid healer or run boomkins).
I do see Monk pulling ahead for a hunter trinity comp, especially if you run a druid healer (because of the brez). Because of the way monks stagger damage and the fact that you have 3 spirit beast heals (+ potentially druid resto affinity passive) that can consistently reduce the stagger on your tank (or burst if you combine them), you will have very consistent tank damage. Another bonus for the Monk is the 5% physical damage debuff he brings which if you run hunters, is a straight 5% damage increase for each hunter. I also see it as a bonus if you run a druid with a monk is that they share the same armor so you can easier trade gear between them and put the gear where it is most useful (within the boundaries of personal loot rules of course). Of course Monk is a slight gamble because he is currently broken and they might just nerfhammer him into the ground.
Personally like DH tanks but they have too many gaps in defensive to be stable (which if you run 1 character is fine, but not for multiboxing).
Paladins are strong picks with dps that exceeds some dps classes but they have a few changes that I dislike (like the nerf to their big heal).
Healer wise shaman becomes an extremely strong pick if you choose not to go the hunter route with the nerf to bloodlust scrolls. And since as a multiboxer you don't have people scattered too much you won't lose out on the weakness of shamans. This becomes especially true if you have secondary healing capabilities on your tank and DPS to offset potential weak single target healing.
Druids are a good pick and if you can get the HOTS rolling (which someone made a topic about on these forums not too long ago explaining how) then you are golden. Only questionable part here is mana usage (is that still a thing?)
I am really looking forward to Shadowlands. With all the changes going on I might step away from 5x Druid and go BrewM/Hunters/RDruid (I always main a Druid), but time will tell.
09-09-2020, 03:10 PM
Ellay
Thanks for those references to the links Nodoze, will be checking their ranking systems. I have seen some of Yumytv's content as well and would recommend.
Also to note the monk passive for 5% physical has gotten nerfed to 3% as well as the Demon Hunter magical also being 3%. So it's still good just not as strong.
War Scrolls are also leaving, and the Priest/ Warrior / Mage buff has gone from 10% to 5%.
09-09-2020, 03:24 PM
nodoze
You all rock. Such great info for pre-planning and thinking about some ShadowLands fun. Be aware that I haven't really played much retail since WoTLK so things like stagger and monks are still foreign to me (pun intended). I did like Legion somewhat and did DemonHunters to cap but not much else. That being said BrewMaster sounds interesting and I am willing to learn the various options and work to catch up so maybe that will be an option for me...
Would Druid Tank have any advantages with 3Hunters and any healer (RDruid or other healer that favors Guardian Tank+Hunters) over other tank options?
I am aware that Druid Tanks are currently expected to be lower tier in ShadowLands but didn't know if Druid Tanks somehow put the hunters/pets on turbo (like Leader of the Pack used to) or the spirit pet healing helps overcome their expected deficiencies. I think one change is that instead of the current BFA self healing Druid Tanks move to have more healing received bonus so maybe that would actually play well with regular HoTs from 3 spirit pets and heals from a Healer.
09-09-2020, 04:01 PM
Ellay
I'm unfamiliar with the movement healing - will have to research that.
There isn't a whole lot of benefit for the Druid tank besides that they are pretty sturdy but still take chunky damage.
They need their defensive ability rolling (Iron Fur) and it settles in, but prior to that they can get spiked for damage. Their rotation is also very simplistic.
The reason they are used in our comps is to just make it 5x Druids and much more simplistic for other side advantages such as the entire team can then go cat form and stealth/skip certain packs of mobs. Hypothetically it also provides a brez, but it's risky since your tank would need to shift out of bear to get it off.
If it wasn't for the sake of having 5x of the same class. I wouldn't be on Guardian Druid. Instead I'd go.. I'm not sure but not druid :)
09-09-2020, 04:56 PM
Feint90
One of the biggest problems with druids is actually that they add very little to your party other then Brez (Also I am fairly sure that Bear can cast Brez from bear form but correct me if I am wrong here) and the added benefit they do bring is best covered by a resto druid because of how strong their healing is. This is also the reason why Feral is considered a bad pick in solo play, even though DPS wise they are slightly above average, boomies just bring slightly more to the party so they generally get picked (and don't take up a melee slot).
So no, bears don't actually add very much to your comp unless you are running 5 druids like Elay said.
The change to the frenzied regen for bear is a slight nerf if your focus is DPS but I don't see that being an issue at the start anyway since you most likely won't get much DPS in on your healer. Problems with bears is that they nerfed rage generation so they get fewer Iron Fur's rolling in comparison to now (even if you exclude stat stacking). Even more so with the lower haste we have at the start of the expansion but I still think bear is middle of the pact (above warriors and for multiboxers, also above DH).
For trinity I think Paladin, DK and Monk will be top picks. Warriors are just in a very bad place, bears don't give you any benefit other then bRez (which you can get elsewhere) and DH have too big of a gap in their defensive skillset to make them stable tanks (which like I mentioned may not be a problem as a solo player, but a multiboxer faces different issues). The actual choice for tank will depend partially on your healer and of course whatever you like playing.
I was not aware they also nerfed the DH/Monk debuffs (I checked wowhead but they still showed 5%). This does make a minor change though because of how much dmg a paladin can currently push out, you have to offset the damage if you want to optimize (is 9% hunter dmg vs difference paladin > whatever you want to pick).
Ofcourse this will be very minor in throughput so pick whatever you enjoy most considering most people drive from their tank.
09-09-2020, 06:33 PM
boxblizzard
I have a hunter setup like this in classic that seriously delivers the all-moving damage and on demand burst with ae, it’s a powerful setup but my problem is PvP and had to abandon the team only because of IWT fading target problems.
if someone has a solution with camera angles snapping into facing assist etc that would be nice? I would go back to this team immediately as I know the team is solid and a strong pve+ I hope PvP if they IWT issue is resolved,
09-09-2020, 06:34 PM
nodoze
Great info. My head is swimming (in a good way) trying to think through all the options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellay
...5x Druids and ... the entire team can then go cat form and stealth/skip certain packs of mobs. ... :)
This part in particular triggered some Night Elf Hunter memories...
In BFA if your 3 Hunters are Night Elves can you still alternate ShadowMeld and Camouflage to essentially have perma stealth on your Hunters and thus bypass packs or what not?
Not saying that niche case would necessarily compel me to have a Druid be my primary 5box tank but if I was already running as my raiding Main a Druid Healer + 3 NE Hunters + Monk/DK/Paladin it could maybe be worth it to have an alternate Druid Tank in the stable for any content where stealth bypasses really helps.
09-10-2020, 02:06 AM
Feint90
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoze
Great info. My head is swimming (in a good way) trying to think through all the options.This part in particular triggered some Night Elf Hunter memories...
In BFA if your 3 Hunters are Night Elves can you still alternate ShadowMeld and Camouflage to essentially have perma stealth on your Hunters and thus bypass packs or what not?
Not saying that niche case would necessarily compel me to have a Druid be my primary 5box tank but if I was already running as my raiding Main a Druid Healer + 3 NE Hunters + Monk/DK/Paladin it could maybe be worth it to have an alternate Druid Tank in the stable for any content where stealth bypasses really helps.
Pretty sure that is possible. For dungeons/M+ though you will rarely need to be in stealth for more then 1 min since you still need to kill packs for percentage for dungeon completion. One bonus with the this is that you can cast traps from camo so if a pack is potentially not skippable, you could throw a trap at it to reduce pull range and walk by them then, druids can't do that.
Shadowmeld is just OP and is used to do skips by MDI players on a lot of team comps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boxblizzard
I have a hunter setup like this in classic that seriously delivers the all-moving damage and on demand burst with ae, it’s a powerful setup but my problem is PvP and had to abandon the team only because of IWT fading target problems.
if someone has a solution with camera angles snapping into facing assist etc that would be nice? I would go back to this team immediately as I know the team is solid and a strong pve+ I hope PvP if they IWT issue is resolved,
I don't really understand the problem you are describing here. IWT Fading targets? As in, they get out of range of your view settings so they disengage? Because that is normal and I think upping your view settings can increase that. You can snap your camera, Elay has a video on it explaining how he uses it for herbing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZBLAHJYPTk
09-10-2020, 07:35 PM
nodoze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellay
Thanks for those references to the links Nodoze, will be checking their ranking systems. I have seen some of Yumytv's content as well and would recommend. ...
Heads up just in case you haven't been able to keep fully up that Blizzard did some balancing to try to tweaks Tanks and Healers some.
Sounds like the nerfbat hit Disc Priests, Vengeance, & Brewmasters the most but if I understood correctly Brewmaster may still be in the top tier with stagger (especially with 3 spirit pets continuously helping him).
From the options that I was thinking about healer-wise it sounds like Shaman got a slight lift and Druids were maybe surprising not nerfed so still on top.
Sounds like the both the previously lowest tier Tanks (Warriors & Druids) got some lifts and Warrior is better than it was and maybe niche OP for some encounter mechanics but Druid Tanks maybe didn't get enough and still aren't where they would need to be.
DK wasn't mentioned (at least I don't remember hearing about it) so I guess it remains in the top tier mix but maybe more importantly it sounds like Paladin got some good tweaks and is much less of a "glass canon" which was music to my ears (since Vanilla my mains have been typically Paladins with Druids alts and always a Hunter for solo stuff)...
My head is still swimming with everyone's great input (my brain trying to think though all the permutations of pros/cons and playstyles) and I am kinda thinking of taking Feint90's advice to heart and consider playing "whatever you like playing" and not try to chase any "metas".
I don't know much about Brewmasters and never played DKs as true PVE tanks so I don't know if I will like them (or not)... I will try to make some time to do some class trials and maybe create a brewmaster and DK to test some... Otherwise if I don't get any testing time I am thinking at this point for me that these balancing changes (and this great discussion) are helping me to likely go:
-3 NE Hunters: My original main back in Classic and beyond for soloing and BGs;
-RDruid: will be my raid healer that then comes and heals my 5box Mythic team;
-Prot Paladin Tank: Dedicated tank for 5box Mythic team (Paladin Healers were my traditional raid healing main but I don't like the idea of having to be heal from melee range so for now I am going druid healer in raids... Maybe will try Holy Paladin in melee in raids at some point but fine if he remains just Prod (My Holy Paladin healers were always dual-spec'ed for Protection paladin role from Vanilla->WotLK).
Since I am a fan of Hybrids and my main PVE team was Paladin+4Shaman I would be happy to try Shaman Healers also (fall back healer now after Druid).
Anyway I would love to hear what changes you all make in your plans (if any) and of course any feedback you have from your own testing/theory-crafting.
Thanks again for starting this thread for all the great info and recent BFA experience shared as my retail knowledge is so very dated...
I think there have been multiple tweaks for balancing and what not and likely there will be more so anything considered "meta" Tank &/or Healer option-wise may well change multiple times between now and Launch (or even after) so chasing the meta may be an exercise in frustration...
I am planning to keep following the advice to "play what you enjoy playing" keeping in mind rough pros/cons of each option that I find palatable.
Paladin and Druids have always been my first choices for mains (usually like having both dual spec'ed for Healer and Tank roles) and glad both are considered top tier or at least good for at least one of those roles the expansion (Druid considered best healers & Paladin Tanks in the top tiers) though obviously that may change some. A little sad that both are also in the bottom tier or have moved to a play-style that I am wary of (Druid tanks are considered meh and Paladin Healers will need to be in melee range) but I will watch both of those and maybe experiment with both during the expansion.
The above being said I am still planning on Paladin Tank & mobile Druid healer with my 3 Night Elf Beast Master Hunters for my primary team for ShadowLands. After this team is in a groove I may well level up a DK, BrewMaster, and 2nd Druid to contrast/compare Tank options and least a Shaman healer to compare to Druid healer... My intuition is that DK may actually be the better tank for me when boxing but I really like Paladins so I am starting with Paladin...
One thing I heard is that Mythic+ teams will likely want to have at least 1 of each of the 4 Covenants on their team to max buffs during dungeon runs and I was curious what you all thought about that... With that in mind, after consulting the spreadsheet, my initial guess would be something like this:
Slot : Class : Covenant;
Tank : Paladin : Kyrian? (Divine Toll for Mythic+);
Healer : Druid : Night Fae? ;
DPS1 : Hunter : Necrolord? ;
DPS2 : Hunter : Necrolord? ;
DPS3 : Hunter : Venthyr? (just to have at least 1 of each of the 4) ;
Thoughts?
09-15-2020, 11:14 AM
z0k
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoze
One thing I heard is that Mythic+ teams will likely want to have at least 1 of each of the 4 Covenants on their team to max buffs during dungeon runs and I was curious what you all thought about that...
If the time investment is as high as I believe it will be as it pertains to covenants, at least out of the gate, I will likely not take this approach for my own sanity and instead use a single covenant for an entire team, based around whatever I believe to have the most effect. For a Paladin/Hunter Trinity/rShaman team, I will likely prioritize the hunters' dps when it comes to covenant choice.
This is all due to change and I could be singing a different tune in 3 months. To be honest I'm probably going to be slow out of the Shadowlands gate, really let things settle in and understand the systems before I make any firm decisions.
09-15-2020, 11:23 AM
nodoze
Quote:
Originally Posted by z0k
If the time investment is as high as I believe it will be as it pertains to covenants, at least out of the gate, I will likely not take this approach for my own sanity and instead use a single covenant for an entire team, based around whatever I believe to have the most effect. For a Paladin/Hunter Trinity/rShaman team, I will likely prioritize the hunters' dps when it comes to covenant choice.
This is all due to change and I could be singing a different tune in 3 months. To be honest I'm probably going to be slow out of the Shadowlands gate, really let things settle in and understand the systems before I make any firm decisions.
That may well be the smart way to go initially to get each together through one single Covenant Story line and what not.
My understanding is that once you have finished and gotten a Covenant it is trivial to be able to switch to a new Covenant provided that isn't a Covenant that character has had before. With that in mind it may be best to do the full 5box team though the NecroLord Covenant (which is considered best for the 3 BM Hunters) and then switch the Tank and Healer at least if the Tank/Healer you choose don't benefit from NecroLord... Can then decide to switch one of the DPS to cover the missing Covenant(s) if the missing buff(s) is(are) worth more than losing Necrolord on the DPS.
My understanding also is that on an account which has completed at least one Covenant on one (main/initial) character that subsequent (alt) characters can just pick the Covenant you want for that character.
09-15-2020, 12:04 PM
Ellay
The dungeons bonuses for your covenant are nice but they aren’t worthwhile From what I have gathered for our style of gameplay. I’m personally going for teams are picking the same covenant for how much easier it should be hypothetically for everything else.
example in a specific dungeon you get a bonus for a very short duration by helping to repair a mech. Well the mech is out of the way and not on the typical route you would take.
anlther is you get a bonus for killing mobs next to a jail cell within a certain window. All of these buffs are quite short duration, and I think will lead for the top mythic+ runners to squeeze out potentially another keystone level overall.
For us they feel like more hassle than it’s worth and even if my covenant matches the dungeon on a character I’m most likely going to skip the bonus in the first place after my first pass of reviewing them.
The only one that was nice is the Night Fae which changed the release spot upon death to the last boss killed instead of the front of the dungeon potentially saving a lot of time.
*edit this was on mobile. My grammar looks terrible.*
09-15-2020, 10:11 PM
nodoze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellay
The dungeons bonuses for your covenant are nice but they aren’t worthwhile From what I have gathered for our style of gameplay. I’m personally going for teams are picking the same covenant for how much easier it should be hypothetically for everything else. ... All of these buffs are quite short duration, and I think will lead for the top mythic+ runners to squeeze out potentially another keystone level overall. ... For us they feel like more hassle than it’s worth and even if my covenant matches the dungeon on a character I’m most likely going to skip the bonus in the first place after my first pass of reviewing them.
The only one that was nice is the Night Fae which changed the release spot upon death to the last boss killed instead of the front of the dungeon potentially saving a lot of time. ...
OK thanks for the info. There is so much I don't fully understand yet so that was helpful to give more context. At this point, once through an initial story line, I plan to switch to the Covenants that help the class roles the most (unless I am missing or misunderstanding something key)...
Quote:
Originally Posted by z0k
If the time investment is as high as I believe it will be as it pertains to covenants, at least out of the gate, I will likely not take this approach for my own sanity and instead use a single covenant for an entire team, based around whatever I believe to have the most effect. ... let things settle in and understand the systems before I make any firm decisions.
In addition to the thoughts I put above in my previous reply one thing I gathered while watching other/different videos on Covenants is that they aren't only about skills and power levels and there are stories and beauty to experience...
Like others have mentioned I also like to drive from my Tank and for me the Class Story and Class Fantasy that has always been my favorite has been Holy Knight Paladins and it doesn't hurt to mix in Captain America's shield, Thor's Hammer, and Valkyries from Valhalla. With that in mind I definitely plan to focus on the Kyrian Covenant on my first play through and to Z0k's point I may just take my whole team though that same Covenant for expediency and then switch them to the Covenants that best fit their roles (maybe Night Fae on Druid & Necrolord on the Hunters). Later as time allows I will likely take more alts to cap and maybe do the different Covenant story lines as make sense thematically like Necro on a DK, Night Fae on a Druid (I want to have a Druid Tank even if they are sub par), Venthyr on my Shaman (maybe not perfect fit theme-wise but rather just because that is the remaining alt I really want to have for cap).
So Z0k's point about taking it slower to cap have reminded me to take the time to enjoy the story line and work the developers have done and to try to better understand the goals behind the expansion. I still plan to be reasonably efficient to cap but don't plan to race...
09-16-2020, 07:14 AM
nodoze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feint90
... Druids are a good pick and if you can get the HOTS rolling (which someone made a topic about on these forums not too long ago explaining how) then you are golden. Only questionable part here is mana usage (is that still a thing?) ...
Is this the HoTs rolling discussion you were referring to? :
I did an advanced search for rolling and rolling HoTs and that one from 2010 was the one that came up... Prior to finding it I was thinking of doing something in ISboxer with a timer to reset but seeing that macro resets it with combat makes me think to some degree doing it in the WoW client may have some advantages.
09-16-2020, 01:34 PM
z0k
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoze
So Z0k's point about taking it slower to cap have reminded me to take the time to enjoy the story line and work the developers have done and to try to better understand the goals behind the expansion. I still plan to be reasonably efficient to cap but don't plan to race...
This is really being driven by my experience with Corruption. There's a pattern Blizzard likes to follow:
1.) Release system
2.) System is kind of broken or painful to get through - lots of grinding
3.) Ok, we're reducing the pain points, but there's still SOME grinding in order to optimize it
4.) If you didn't buy into the system and do your 20 minutes of quests twice a week, you will never be able to catch up.
In Shadowlands there are 4 systems: Legendaries, Animas, Soulbinds, Conduits
These will all have some effect on play power level, which is largely unknown today in terms of how that balance will play itself out.
It used to be: go do your dungeons, get good gear, and you were powerful. I miss those days, it was straight forward. There was less to research/understand, and even less RNG involved. I totally burned myself out on parts 1/2 of corruption, didn't really understand the system very well, didn't really understand the extent that part 3 could be exploited, and now I'm somewhere on step 4, totally disillusioned by it. Hindsight 20/20 I believe I could have enjoyed corruption a lot more than I did if I had understood the system better along the way.
In closing, I will admit, Corruption is a very extreme example of this, but I definitely want to be careful moving forward. Having 4 different covenants for one team and having to duplicate efforts sounds like a great way to burn out. The pay off might not be that good, or maybe I could have done better if I had done something differently. Pivoting away from that strategy will make my old extreme strategy feel awful and I won't want to do all the work in order to pivot.
09-17-2020, 06:08 AM
nodoze
I hesitated to share these as they contain cursing and are somewhat irreverent but I think the edginess is more around trying to be humorous and more importantly they cover Tanks and Healers from more of a Playstyle and fit perspective rather than just what has the higher outputs and are more "meta".
Again please be forewarned that there is foul language and what not but there were/are insights in here that I have not seen presented this way elsewhere. For me at least while boxing I have trouble with mobility and typically would want effectiveness with simple rotations and fewer buttons and these videos try to answer from those perspectives (with humor to boot).
09-18-2020, 03:11 AM
Feint90
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoze
Is this the HoTs rolling discussion you were referring to? :
I did an advanced search for rolling and rolling HoTs and that one from 2010 was the one that came up... Prior to finding it I was thinking of doing something in ISboxer with a timer to reset but seeing that macro resets it with combat makes me think to some degree doing it in the WoW client may have some advantages.
On the other topic of covenants:
Depending on the bonus and the viability of the covenants for each role, Zok's idea to make a team for world content and a team for dungeons and simply switch out certain characters may be the way to go.
If you are trinity and necro's turn out to be the best pick, just add 2 hunters for world content and you can do it all in 1 go. Then you can potentially make a team consisting of your tank/healer and fillers to do the content on them, assuming they benefit from the same covenant. I would personally not go for 3 teams if they end up being split as that would just be a hassle.
Also according to Preach, the Night Fae weekly seems to be the best for resources so if you are boxing druids, going NF (which as of right now is only slightly behind Venthyr DPS wise), will give you a little boost in resources, pretty much free.
On the other topic of covenants:
Depending on the bonus and the viability of the covenants for each role, Zok's idea to make a team for world content and a team for dungeons and simply switch out certain characters may be the way to go.
If you are trinity and necro's turn out to be the best pick, just add 2 hunters for world content and you can do it all in 1 go. Then you can potentially make a team consisting of your tank/healer and fillers to do the content on them, assuming they benefit from the same covenant. I would personally not go for 3 teams if they end up being split as that would just be a hassle.
Also according to Preach, the Night Fae weekly seems to be the best for resources so if you are boxing druids, going NF (which as of right now is only slightly behind Venthyr DPS wise), will give you a little boost in resources, pretty much free.
Thanks for the link.
For me my two mains will be my Protection Paladin Tank and my Resto Druid Healer and the 3 Hunters are just there for Dungeons.
I think my Paladin Tank will be Kyrian no matter what for both best Tank ability for 5mans but also for Class Fantasy/gear images/etc...
My Druid will likely be both what I raid on & be my primary 5box healer and I will likely go with whatever is optimal for raid and 5man Resto Druid performance (Night Fae?) even if that means I have at least 2 different Covenants to deal with...
I feel like I don't fully understand what will be optimal for dailies/weekly or what not yet but ultimately I am OK with having multiple sets of 3 hunters (or other alts) of that really helps my two mains (and the Druid is likely the overall priority since it will be my primary Raiding main).
Eventually I think I will want at least 2 other tanks to be able to contrast/compare to the Prot Paladin (DK and Guardian Druid for sure and maybe a BrewMaster). Healerwise I will also want at least a Shaman so I likely will be leveling up at least a second team... Something like at least these 2 Teams across my 6 accounts:
Team1) P.Paladin+R.Druid+3BM.Hunters
Team2) B.DK+R.Shaman+3BM.Hunters (or maybe a different DPS).
If I do the Shaman on a different account than the Druid I guess I could maybe do some Guardian Druid Tank testing with the Shaman without leveling up a 2nd Druid though if ever do a stealth team I will want at least 2 Druids with my 3 ShadowMeld+Camo Hunters...
Right now I feel like I don't fully understand the whole Covenants and daily/weekly and party mix implications so will have to study/think about that later but those are my thoughts so far...
09-19-2020, 01:28 PM
Vecter
Ellay I have been demoted to a school age child after watching this, a first day newb who has never boxed before. I laughed throughout on how much easier life would have been if I actually played correctly! I appreciate all your willingness to share and guide us through great setup and technique. Thank you!
09-22-2020, 04:15 PM
schmonz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellay
The dungeons bonuses for your covenant are nice but they aren’t worthwhile From what I have gathered for our style of gameplay. I’m personally going for teams are picking the same covenant for how much easier it should be hypothetically for everything else.
I really would like that too, but when i see the chart which shows strong and weak covenants at.. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...hyKTV74fdzBXLw .. it seems a tank druid would go either Night Fae, Necrolords or Venthyr, while a Boomkin would go Venthyr, and a resto druid would go Night Fae. My other team is even more mixed, made out of a Mage, a Warlock, a Priest, a Druid and a Hunter. Priest would want either Kyrian or Venthyr, Mage would go for either Kyrian or Night Fae, Warlock for either Kyrian, Necrolords or Venthyr and Druid would go Night Fae, Necrolords or Venthyr, and the Hunter would go either Kyrian or Necrolords. I wonder if it is worth to split to Covenant groups, considering this ends up in same roles very often.
09-27-2020, 05:42 AM
Brandish
Well, I'm thinking of starting a Vulpera team, with Monk as tank, Shaman as Healer, and then 3x Hunters, as it is written.
I like having a mage for portals, but that is not meant to be. Hoping the camp perk makes up for no mage.
10-09-2020, 01:48 AM
Barazanthul
Beast Mastery
Misdirection threat percentage increased by 100%.
Spirit Mend (Spirit Beast pet ability) healing reduced by 66%.
Aspect of the Wild no longer has a global cooldown.
Bestial Wrath now causes your pet to instantly deal damage to your target upon activation.
Multi-Shot and Beast Cleave now capped at 5 targets.
The following Talents have been adjusted:
New Talent: Bloodshed – Command your pet to tear into your target, causing your target to bleed over 18 seconds and increase all damage taken from your pet by 15% for 18 seconds. 1 minute cooldown.
Dire Beast no longer costs focus.
Scent of Blood has been redesigned – Activating Bestial Wrath grants 2 charges of Barbed Shot.
Venomous Bite has been redesigned and renamed Spitting Cobra: When Bestial Wrath ends, summon a Spitting Cobra to aid you in combat for 15 seconds. Each Cobra Shot used during Bestial Wrath increases the damage this Spitting Cobra deals by 10%.
Stampede now has a 2 minute cooldown (was 3 minutes) and capped at 5 targets per beast per wave of Stampede.
Barrage now capped at 8 targets.
Changes from the last patch. Anyone an idea if the 66% nerf to Spirit Mend makes it so, that MM is now better?
10-09-2020, 07:34 AM
Ellay
The 66% nerf hurts the spirit mend a bit but it’s still going to be very useful. This may change the healer you want (though resto shaman is looking strong still).
The reason BM hunter is so good is fast every single ability they use can be done while moving. Marksman is a stationary turret almost and moving causes a decent drop in dps.
10-09-2020, 09:17 AM
nodoze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellay
The 66% nerf hurts the spirit mend a bit but it’s still going to be very useful. This may change the healer you want (though resto shaman is looking strong still).
The reason BM hunter is so good is fast every single ability they use can be done while moving. Marksman is a stationary turret almost and moving causes a decent drop in dps.
Because I want to main a Resto Druid I am still sticking with Resto Druid + 3 Night Elf Hunters as my initial focus though I am still torn on the ideal tank. There has been lots of balancing on the Tank side and it sounds like they are all getting to be closer in rankings each with their pros/cons. I was shocked to see at least one ranker suddenly put Blood DK at the bottom because with the changes they were dying in high Mythics in one global before they could heal back up (though this may not be a problem in low to mid level Mythics).
One thing I am concerned with is that it seems like they are limiting many AoE abilities to be capped at X targets (often I am seeing 5 but sometimes 3, 8, etc) and a little concerned that a tank with a target cap limit may have some bad interaction with hunter target cap limits... For example if there were 10 mobs in a pack then I am concerned that 5 random ones will go to the tank and other sets of 5 will result in random mob aggro to each hunter/pet... If Misdirection indeed lasts 8 seconds and has a 30 second cooldown does this make this a non-issue for this team? If that is going to be a regular issue maybe the nod will go to a tank that has solid aggo on unlimited targets (like maybe from Paladin Concecration?).
Of all the Tanks BrewMaster Monk's stagger's more flat/consistent incoming damage seems to fit perfectly with HoTs from Spirit Beast and Resto Druid... BrewMaster's personal damage does seem to be considered relatively low compared to the other tanks (especially Vengeance & Paladin) but with this complement that may be partially offset by the +5% buff to the parties Physical Damage. A little concerned that BrewMaster may have issues with aggro on more than 5 targets so just don't know how big of a problem that might be.
With the above in mind, how big of a problem are AoE target caps looking to be for Multiboxed teams? Should I dismiss my concerns because it is a non-issue for most teams and/or in particular this team because of Misdirection? Does target caps tip the scales toward certain tanks for multiboxed teams in general or in particular for our complement (3BM Hunters+Healer)?
Have you or anyone else had a chance to do any recent testing or have any updated thoughts on how you would rank the tanks after all the balancing changes?
10-09-2020, 09:57 AM
Ellay
When doing Mythic+ my personal experience is that we never typically pulled more than 5 mobs on harder content. There's just a bit too much going on, and it also appears they want to stop this type of playstyle where you pull the entire dungeon in 4 pulls.
So as far as target caps go, I wouldn't pay mind to it and go with the class you enjoy playing.
For DK's getting one shot, they should be ok. They aren't going to let 1 class be that vulnerable in higher keys. The basis I'm using that on is pretty much every tank was able to do the highest achieved Mythic + key minus 2 or so levels. Just checked and Every single tank was able to time a +28 Mythic+, while Warriors were able to do a bit higher at 30. Overall this should be fine and with Resto Druid any tank is good.
10-09-2020, 10:04 AM
nodoze
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellay
When doing Mythic+ my personal experience is that we never typically pulled more than 5 mobs on harder content. There's just a bit too much going on, and it also appears they want to stop this type of playstyle where you pull the entire dungeon in 4 pulls.
So as far as target caps go, I wouldn't pay mind to it and go with the class you enjoy playing.
For DK's getting one shot, they should be ok. They aren't going to let 1 class be that vulnerable in higher keys. The basis I'm using that on is pretty much every tank was able to do the highest achieved Mythic + key minus 2 or so levels. Just checked and Every single tank was able to time a +28 Mythic+, while Warriors were able to do a bit higher at 30. Overall this should be fine and with Resto Druid any tank is good.
Thanks so much as that really helps allay my concerns in those areas.
10-09-2020, 10:38 AM
Jabberie
Quote:
Originally Posted by nodoze
There has been lots of balancing on the Tank side and it sounds like they are all getting to be closer in rankings each with their pros/cons. I was shocked to see at least one ranker suddenly put Blood DK at the bottom because with the changes they were dying in high Mythics in one global before they could heal back up (though this may not be a problem in low to mid level Mythics).
in any list, someone has to be last. Also we could be looking at a reset of what Blizz think is a "high" key.
10-10-2020, 11:04 PM
Slats
So something to consider. I initially thought I could use Resto Druid to throw out Wild Growths at my Tank and because it heals up to 6 Targets it would hit the Pets as they are closest. However it never will heal Pets only other Players unless you cast the initial cast on a pet and then the other heals will still goto players.
Chain Heal on the other hand will happily heal pets and it will heal the ones that have taken damage. All the Totems seems to also heal the Pets as well as your whole group.
While it sucks the initial heal of Spirit Mend got nerfed the real benefit to us I think is the rolliing HoT always on your Tank with 100% uptime by stacking three hunters. Taking a bit of the pressure off while moving or using a more 'group/raid' focused healer like a Shaman as their biggest complaint seems to be tank healing.
10-11-2020, 10:32 AM
Jabberie
I stopped using Spirit Mend pets at endgame quite a while ago after I noticed it disengages the pet from their target when it's used. I found that the added DPS and dispel from a ferocity was more useful. /shrug
