Large World PvP Teams in Legion

I tried and failed four times to get Blizzard to separate my Bnet accounts across 15 different emails after I hit the Token cap per Bnet. I decided to take a break and wait for closer to Legion dropping before I restarted, and I intend to move from 15 boxing to 40. Playing on Sargeras-Horde meant that during prime time I was unable to lock down quest hubs due to the number of Alliance in the area, and I imagine 40 will fix that pretty quick :)

Anyway, one of the most interesting things to come out of Legion, from my perspective, is the removal of raid buffs. Previously, my OCD meant I wanted, as much as possible, to have the same class and have them wear the same type of armor. I'm crazy, I get it. The downside to this, obviously, is that you lose so much throughput by not having all the interlocking raid buffs... Queue Legion.

Having played with the 15, I can safely say that ranged classes are just plain easier to park in a high-traffic area (quest hub, part of a town, etc) and pvp. My Death Knights are near and dear to my heart, but even with just 15 it's hard to keep track of everyone. Plus, the strategy you fight is one of attempting to draw you further apart and kill individual members of your team, which is much easier to accomplish against melee.

All that being said, I'm looking at Warlocks or Hunters paired with Priests or Shaman.

Hunters are my default pick because they're trivial to setup for maximum DPS and their burst is amazing. Obviously, they're also completely mobile while dps'ing, which is a big deal. Their AoE remains to be seen; it looks like MM's Sidewinder (100 talent) will be able to one-shot most people when there's 30 hunters, and it'll hit everyone on the way to the target... I guess I'd need to see how wide of a swath it hits. Other than that though, though don't have much--Multi-shot isn't going to be mowing down droves of people, and they don't have any sort of AoE crowd control that will help.

Warlocks look... very interesting. Shadowburn for Destruction means that they would be as mobile as the Hunters are; 30 Shadowburns will one shot any single player, which then generates two more shards for the Warlock so they can keep Shadowburning. That plus Conflagrate to get the shards started means that, single target, you couldn't possibly ask for more. Moreover, Grimoire of Sacrifice would add a hefty AoE to the Shadowburn train. Fire and Brimstone also means that you could conceivably just Incinerate down large swachs of people. Finally, they do have Shadowfury as an AoE crowd control...

I considered Mages and Elemental Shaman, but they just don't have any big draw. Too much of the Ele AoE is ground targeted, and their instants are on a cooldown. Mages look ok, but not great. Balance Druids lost their AoE and Shadow Priests still don't have any to write home about. Am I missing something?

Anyway, these are my varied thoughts on large-scale multiboxing in Legion.

Thoughts? :)

My thoughts on large-scale multiboxing in Legion is not so much concerning the raid setup: I just wish you uncontrollable itching on your balls and get cramps in your arms at the same time.

are you really this oblivious OP? you are setting yourself for disappointment.


the pvp world content will obviously disable follow like any recent pvp content has, and if it doesn't and people bitch too much about it (and they will if you run around with 15 accounts thinking anyone besides you is having fun) then the easiest solution for blizzard will be to just disable follow completely and be done with it.

from the looks of it legion will be the end of it. and most of the blame lies with boxers just like you, ruining the fun for everyone, other multiboxers included.

Mosg, I withheld my opinion the first time you said you were moving to 40, but I feel that I should say something now.

I think you're going to find a very small percentage of multiboxers who will approve of anyone playing such a large number of characters, especially for the sole purpose of "locking down a quest hub." The reason for this is due to the recent drama over "mass multiboxing," and the way that people, solo players, were affected because of it. The drama was unavoidable if you visited the WoW forums or reddit, and it was even reported on a few sites, such as Icy-Veins. Many people stood up for small-scale multiboxing (5-10 accounts), but shared their discontent for large-scale multiboxers.

That amount of characters causes nothing but server/continent/zone lag, as well as constant phasing, wherever they go, and they're almost impossible to fight because of it. This is unlikely going to be a good experience for any party involved, regardless of whether people are trying to fight you, or avoid you. Such a large amount of characters will be far from any sort of fair or balanced fight, even if you could get the Alliance to amass the numbers to retaliate.

You could argue that it's no different than 40 solo players getting together to raid something, but with solo players there is the challenge of getting them online, grouped up, and coordinated for the attack, whereas when multiboxing that number of accounts, the only thing you have to do is log in the characters, and you're ready to go—no matter the time of day. There's also the fact that those individual players need to stay logged on for X amount of hours, whereas, again, you, and only you, need to stay logged on to complete your full force of forty. Keeping 40 people logged on for 2, 4, 8, or more hours per day (without getting bored) is unlikely going to happen when it comes to world PvP, but it's incredibly easy for one person to stay online for those hours, day after day after day.

I respect you as a player in the multiboxing community, but I cannot respect your decision to move to such a large amount of accounts just so that you can ensure that others will be bothered by your presence as a multiboxer.

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Originally Posted by zenga

My thoughts on large-scale multiboxing in Legion is not so much concerning the raid setup: I just wish you uncontrollable itching on your balls and get cramps in your arms at the same time.

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I've been here for 8 years, and you're the first person on my ignore list. Grats Zenga for being an unworthwhile human being.

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Originally Posted by CMKOT

are you really this oblivious OP? you are setting yourself for disappointment.

the pvp world content will obviously disable follow like any recent pvp content has, and if it doesn't and people bitch too much about it (and they will if you run around with 15 accounts thinking anyone besides you is having fun) then the easiest solution for blizzard will be to just disable follow completely and be done with it.

from the looks of it legion will be the end of it. and most of the blame lies with boxers just like you, ruining the fun for everyone, other multiboxers included.

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If they were going to disable follow everywhere, they'd have done it. It wasn't boxers that got follow removed from BGs, it was bots.

@Mirai
There's a huge difference between what boxers on Emerald Dream are/were doing and what I've outlined above, and you know it. Don't be disingenuous. I've never advocated intentionally increasing lag in an area and I have no intention of doing so as I move to 40 (pets, toys, etc). Quest hubs in Tanaan Jungle regularly had 60+ people on the other side as I assaulted with 15, and moving to 40 wouldn't even put me on even footing considering the population on Sargeras.

There's a world of difference between showing up with enough toons and acoutrement to force server lag/potential crashing and showing up with enough toons for a fair fight. Is this really what we've become here? Is the difference in outlook between a light (5) multiboxer and a heavy (15+) multiboxer the same as a solo player and a light?

I get that people are scared of losing their niche in gaming over other people intentionally being an asshole, but where do you draw the asshole line? Is it 10? 15? 20?

What happened on Emerald Dream was an intentional, divisive choice and doesn't represent me or people like me, and I think largely doesn't represent multiboxers in general.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

...but where do you draw the asshole line?

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I don't think it's (just) a matter of numbers. I'd say you've drawn it pretty well yourself (and stepped over it) in your original post when you stated this:

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

I was unable to lock down quest hubs due to the number of Alliance in the area, and I imagine 40 will fix that pretty quick

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Your goal seems to be to cause such disruption all by yourself. Something which, as MiRai has stated as well, is a far more dynamic thing when it's done by a group of individual players given the amount of effort involved.

In my book, this is the kind of crap that gives multiboxers a bad name.

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Originally Posted by MultiBear

I don't think it's (just) a matter of numbers. I'd say you've drawn it pretty well yourself (and stepped over it) in your original post when you stated this:



Your goal seems to be to cause such disruption all by yourself. Something which, as MiRai has stated as well, is a far more dynamic thing when it's done by a group of individual players given the amount of effort involved.

In my book, this is the kind of crap that gives multiboxers a bad name.

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If 40 people get together and lock down a quest hub on a pvp server, we say 'pvp happened on a pvp server'. But if a boxer does it, he crosses the asshole line? I don't agree with that statement at all. We're not talking about a 1:1 server, we're talking about a 9:1 against me, where pvp is still incredibly uphill with 15. Even if I had 40, I don't think I could lock down Tanaan during prime time.

Sorry Mosg2 but boxing 40 toons is no where near the same as 40 individuals. Regardless of how you try to spin it, having 40 toons hitting the server at a specific moment doing specific actions will have an impact, it has been shown repeatably. And locking down a quest hub? Very much different with an actual raid of people, it takes an enormous effort to set it up and execute it. 40 toons on your own requires little effort once you setup your system. Multiboxing gets the bad rap no matter the situation and cases like this will just continue to shine that negative light. Why not do 10-15 and try to get more boxers to help? No? Too much effort? See where I am going?

Blizzard hasn't done much yet but with these cases becoming more frequent the fury of the playbase will require a response and unfortunately we all get screwed. I am sorry to say you will not get the blessing of this community, not that you would care.

I compare the mass boxers to those people who drive really big pick ups with body/suspension lifts, large tires but dont or rarely haul/tow anything.

The number of toons is irrelevant to me, box 40000 if you want. In your first post you led off with "I was unable to lock down quest hubs due to the number of Alliance in the area, and I imagine 40 will fix that pretty quick". That is what I take issue with, you are going to purposely grief people. And the "pvp happened on a pvp server" is a tiring excuse.

As stated by others, I do not agree with that you're doing, but you seems to have an answer for everyone's point so I won't try and elaborate my point as I feel it wont move this conversation along in any way.

@Crum, et al
What I'm trying to say is that there's no difference, ethically, between 40 individual humans getting together and locking down a quest hub, which we would not say is griefing, and a multiboxer doing the same. The morality of the event (locking down a quest hub for the opposite faction) shouldn't be decided by how easy or hard it is, which is what your argument boils down to.

@Vecter
I think part of your point is valid: Does multiboxing 40 toons lag the server? I don't know the answer to that question definitively. I've been in Tanaan with my 15 against 60-70 on the other side and haven't noticed any lag. I wonder what the deciding factor is?

I have to admit, I agree with the others here.

While I think it would be cool, the whole setup process, getting macros together, the window layouts, the technical aspects of setting up a computer(s) to run them all, and eventually playing 40 characters, that would all go away the second I PVP'ed. It's no contest, that many vs x number of opposing faction. Would feel to cheap, almost like cheating / griefing.

But to intentionally lock down a hub, that just screams like more bad press for multiboxers. Every single person that multiboxes is like an ambassador to our play style. The more negative feedback there is, i think we all suffer. From other players to just flat out being mean/rude to us, to perhaps at the top of the food chain with Blizzard removing /follow further.

Just like some other user on this forum, he said he was naming his guild "Hacker" or some sort, something about the same level of hate from people and that he personally didn't care for those people. I mean really? I didn't say anything in that thread, though I wanted too. Not sure where this sense of being an ******* entitlement is coming from.

Personally I try to do what I can to show multiboxers in a good light. Helping out others with instance que's / runs, mount runs, gold runs, setting up their own guild without spending 1k on invites etc...

I think others should do the same. I feel multiboxing is a privilege not a right, and Blizzard can change their stance anytime. Whether it was botting or multiboxers that got /follow removed in BG's it doesn't really matter. The fact is that it got removed, and we don't know with 100% certainty why.

I know you will do what you want. I just hope that this rant of mine has offered up some additional perspective on the matter.

The argument that each of you have made is that the choice to multibox that many characters increases the chance that they'll remove the capacity to multibox, therefore I should not do it.

I'm telling you from experience, even having 30-40 toons in many situations on Sargeras I would still be at a disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

The argument that each of you have made is that the choice to multibox that many characters increases the chance that they'll remove the capacity to multibox, therefore I should not do it.

I'm telling you from experience, even having 30-40 toons in many situations on Sargeras I would still be at a disadvantage.

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Yea if a server is nicely populated you will have a challenge, and the challenge is what we as boxers want. I just think it was your point to lock down quest hubs that really gets to the point of negativity about boxers. We are at an unfortunate disadvantage with people that play single accounts and therefore will always be viewed based on our actions, and that means we do have to make decisions that won't further the cause to get us banned or multiboxing against the ToS altogether. Running around the world causing havoc I have no problem with, its the single instances of causing grief to players over a long period of time that I have problems with.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

The argument that each of you have made is that the choice to multibox that many characters increases the chance that they'll remove the capacity to multibox, therefore I should not do it.

I'm telling you from experience, even having 30-40 toons in many situations on Sargeras I would still be at a disadvantage.

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I think it's important to remember we're all sharing this common play style. I would caution people from ganging up on Mosg2.

IMHO:

Mosg2: It's ultimately your choice. If you want to multibox 40 characters because you feel disadvantaged that's fine. I think what others are trying to convey here is you shouldn't, and that doing so will probably help fuel anti-multiboxing angst.

I feel like 40 people camping an area is greifing. Whether those 40 people are 1 person multiboxing, or 40 solo players, or even 35 solo players and one 5 boxer. IMHO it's still greifing to just sit there for extended periods. I feel like this is on par with repeatedly killing lowbies so they can't quest or travel or do anything but graveyard runs.

If you disagree with this, that's 100% fine. No one can tell you how to feel about multiboxing or greifing. What people CAN tell you is if you're actions are "being an asshole" or "making others look bad". You can disagree with those statements but you'll likely never change someone's mind about it.

- Signed: Svpernova09 The Asshole

(Some of my best friends are assholes)

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

@Crum, et al
What I'm trying to say is that there's no difference, ethically, between 40 individual humans getting together and locking down a quest hub, which we would not say is griefing, and a multiboxer doing the same. The morality of the event (locking down a quest hub for the opposite faction) shouldn't be decided by how easy or hard it is, which is what your argument boils down to.

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I wholly agree with your first point, there is no difference in how a hub is locked down. You're second point you're taking liberty with my opinion, I think it is griefing no matter the circumstance. I am fully ok with you gallivanting around the country side wiping out towns and hubs. But when your "fun" impedes my ability for an extended period of time I take issue; whether you are 50 people, or one person with 50 toons. You're essentially creating the US Congress.

But like I had alluded, I am totally for your 40 box adventures, just not the quest hubs being locked down. It boils down to I don't agree with it when many people do it, and therefor that transcribes to multiboxers doing it as well.

#Trump2016 - Make Boxing Great Again

These fools have NEVER been on Sargeras Horde. You know how I know this? Because Mosg and I are the ONLY horde left on Sargeras rofl.

I have been involved in mass PvP on Sargeras horde, even with 50+ players (some boxers like me most not) we still got rekt by the 200+ alliance that will gladly show up for pvp at anytime you initiate it.

A 40 boxer on Horde side isn't going to even come close to evening the odds. Stop complaining about mass multiboxing in this context.

I'd just like to say, everyone has an asshole, it's how they use it that matters.

@Mosg2: I was multiboxing for 3 weeks now. It's much much less than your 8 years. I play alliance on Sargeras and I'll be happy to fight against you. It'll be fun :D

As a multiboxer, I've been on the receiving end of untold amounts of grief when leveling on Magtheridon back in the day. I accepted it as part of the PVP server Obamacare package, so I knew I was gonna get screwed regularly. Ditto with my few months of playing a solo character on another PVP server. Camping is something I truly dislike on a gut level; I'd be in favor of making peoples' health pools drop the longer they stayed flagged in a 100-yard radius, or something equally similar to Ares destroying Athens in God of War I. From the perspective of a vastly outnumbered solo player trying to access a PVP hub, I'd be thrilled to see a multiboxer with a bunch of toons show up and run off the bullies, preferably in the most humiliating manner possible.

Sadly, multiboxing is unknowable magic to the typical console/CandyCrush idjit, so trying to cater to the Spirit Of The Game(tm) or whatever the kids are calling it these days is a losing proposition. Either you're the type of person that sees multiboxers and goes, "Whoa, Cool!" or "HAI GUSY R U BOTS?" So I'd say, have fun while you can; won't last forever regardless of what we do.

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Originally Posted by Mokoi

These fools have NEVER been on Sargeras Horde. You know how I know this? Because Mosg and I are the ONLY horde left on Sargeras rofl.

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I've been playing on Sargeras for over a year now (with several others from this forum), and I'm well aware of what the faction (im)balance is like, but... I'm not sure how that changes anything.

Are you saying that mass multiboxing is no big deal if you play on a faction that is largely under-populated, but not okay if you play on a faction that isn't? If you're not saying that, then why bring up faction imbalance at all as a defense to multiboxing such a large amount of characters? What bearing does it have on the topic of whether mass multiboxing should be accepted or not?

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Originally Posted by Mokoi

A 40 boxer on Horde side isn't going to even come close to evening the odds. Stop complaining about mass multiboxing in this context.

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Again, I have to ask, what bearing does being at a disadvantage have in this context? Is someone only allowed to multibox a very large amount of characters as long as they understand they're at a disadvantage? What happens if you are able to lock down quest hubs day after day for hours at a time? Does that not mean you've got the advantage over others in that case?

I personally watched a semi-large-scale multiboxer lock down Stormshield on Sargeras back late last year, and it took over an hour for the Alliance to group up and take him down. A few months before that he said that he had locked down Stormshield for "5+ hours" and the Alliance "had to get the GM to make him leave."

With that said, I don't know how you don't expect to have the advantage with such a large amount of characters, since that multiboxer I mentioned above (perhaps one of you two?) had no issues doing it with a much smaller number.

You can read this as an attack, but these are legitimate questions. I'm always curious to know why a few people have such a desire to multibox a very large amount of characters.

Damit Mosg2... You were a hero of mine, I still hear your voice of that video explaining the Mosg system. In my mind you shared a seat with Ellay and a few others.

Now I just feel like Donald Trump won the election.

@Mirai
I think the point Mokoi was making is that if you're mass multiboxing and that only makes you 'even' with the other side's numbers, then it's (more, at least) morally acceptable.

Also, right before Mokoi and I took a break, there was a guy with character names Ebola, I think, that was multiboxing 40+ toons there on Sargeras Horde. There were a few times I was able to lock down Lion's Watch for 10 or 15 minutes, but with only 15 toons I would just get steamrolled.

@Selz
Don't be like that baby. You know I still love you.

It's like Mokoi said above: I don't see there being any sort of moral problem with it if you're vastly outnumbered and your intention is actual pvp, not zone/server disruption via lag.

As an EVE player, I wholeheartedly support your decision to multibox 40 characters. It is a theme park mmo after all; the whimpering alliance suffer no real loss from you actions.

And as for mass multiboxing being a "disruption," I think its pretty embarrassing that the game servers can't even handle it. I thought it was supposed to be an MMO?

Stomp them nice and hard friend. Its literally the only thing worth doing there now.

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Originally Posted by EaTCarbS

As an EVE player...

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Please allow me to translate: "As a player of a game where input broadcasting and the use of anything but full-screen VideoFX is now prohibited because of community outcry..."

I'd point out the irony, but given how constructive your posts tend to be whenever you decide to poke your head around a World of Warcraft related thread, I think there's a reasonable chance you're well aware of it.

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Originally Posted by MultiBear

Please allow me to translate: "As a player of a game where input broadcasting and the use of anything but full-screen VideoFX is now prohibited because of community outcry..."

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I have to admit its nice to play a game where the creators of said game actually care about and listen to their players instead of raking in cash.

https://youtu.be/XuOYmqSF6OQ

One thing I would worry about with large scale pvp is that with wow phasing it seems to transform into something different from regular world pvp. It becomes a battle of phase lines, lag, banners, and toys.

I also rolled some toons on H sarge with the plan of participating in world pvp there. I was really surprised to see that the dual-boxing.com guild recommendation was for Alliance Sarg.

I've been doing 'large scale Mboxing' for years, apart from a few GMs teleporting my characters around to test what i'm doing-- it's been pretty good.
I'm on frostmourne, the population is really skewed like Sargeras (RIP Horde haha).

There's been no 'public outcry' to have me and my friends removed, our friends lists have exploded with Alliance laughing and asking us to do more.
I can't really comment on the class combinations too much, since i'm not really going to change mine in Legion. It's worked for years, why change now haha.

Some advice though, on getting the majority to like you.
Roll RACES that are the minority, so alliance can complete nemesis quests (for example).
Rotate the Hubs you lock down, don't stay in one place for too long. The enemy WILL follow you everywhere :P

Personally i'll be sticking with DKs (9-10), 4ish resto shaman, 2 resto druids, a MW monk and hpally. Sprinkle in some Hunters, warlocks and a mage :P
Right now I'm using 3 boomies instead of warlocks. Raise ally, rebirth etc. so much lasting power. I'm not sure if it's being changed.

I did want to use Demon Hunters, but I don't see all that movement they have being used too much en masse.

I'd say that the "asshole" line is drawn if the mass boxing causes the server to lag out. Granted it's a problem Blizz should fix, but fingers wil lbe pointed at the person instigating the issue.

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Originally Posted by daviddoran

I'd say that the "asshole" line is drawn if the mass boxing causes the server to lag out. Granted it's a problem Blizz should fix, but fingers wil lbe pointed at the person instigating the issue.

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Strictly speaking, everyone was an asshole in the Tarren Mill days by that standard. ;) If there really was a thing a multiboxer could do that would purposefully lag out a zone on-demand that wasn't "just playing the game," I'd be very surprised if Blizzard wouldn't smack that with the Orbital Ban Hammer.