Even for non-boxed, How is the burst vs healing + defense. Nothing is going down ? All 25min battles ?
I played some bgs. getting rolled right now as lacking gear right now.
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Even for non-boxed, How is the burst vs healing + defense. Nothing is going down ? All 25min battles ?
I played some bgs. getting rolled right now as lacking gear right now.
Games in 3's can last 2 mins due to burst (bm hunter + something), or 20+ mins (mage/ret/druid vs dk/mage/shaman, mage/ele/priest, RMP)
Been gearing my shamans in BGs aswell, at first I almost cried cus 1 lock could solo my team. Now Im at 16 % pvp power, and shit die. Get some kills by trinket, insta Elemental blast followed by (insta sometimes) Lava burst, then ES. Gonna try 5v5 once Im close to fully honor geared.
I'm assuming that 1 warlock was full pvp geared and you were in fresh 90 with quest stuff? Cuz is a quest geared fresh 90 can own my whole team already, kinda makes me not wanna finish leveling them to 90 :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita
At least pallies can survive. Pallies are pretty beefy this round with all the defensive stuff. But damage are not there, at least not yet that I can see. So I just run around getting feared/CCed to no end until I am out of mana and bubble.
I think I've enjoyed fok aoe silience in arena more than bgs these days :D, srsly sometimes you feel like nothing dies, although you dont die too but anyway its so fcking boring
I've also done an arena game with 12% pvp power, at least the oneshot macro does its job but still pretty hard with all that cc stuff and warrior/mage damage, will see how its going with full gear.
How is the Ascendance burst holding up at 90? I played a few WSG's when I hit 87 and with Ascendance + SWG it was god mode. Blow the hell out of level 89 flag carriers even with their healers, they couldn't stop it.
The problem I had at first, and will just come with experience, is when to use it. I ran into a couple 89 blood DKs who ate my entire burst through an AMZ I didn't know was up, and a pally with the run twice as fast as me thing just outrun me even with SWG up and I couldn't get enough lava bursts on it.
Survivability: the stone bullwark totem + 4x healing tides kept me alive against beast 89 ret paladins and warriors who would otherwise wreck my whole time in 5 seconds. But after those were on cooldown, way squishy. But this was level 87 with no resil or pvp power.
My other observation is that the "empowered" chain lighthing aka lava beam was garbage, not worth using the 15 seconds of ascendance when with ele mastery and/or bloodlust it was more effective to pick off individuals.
On another note, a good counter to all the mass CC, especially warrior/mage stuff will be crucial. I have this idea in my head of strategically projected capacitor totems and the old earthbind root + thunderstorm trick that procs in mid air and lands them 20-30 yards away, rooted.
I don't even know what to do level anymore, so I'm just leveling randomly whichever characters pop up on my screens when I log in.
Eventually, maybe by the next expansion I will have all teams up at 90.
Ok I just got full set of pvp gears in time before Monday night. How about gemming. PVP power > all ? I had a feeling PVP power > even primiary stats (Str) for pvp. Played some solo arena. Rets are best described as semi tanky + off healing + 2min per burst. Even the 2 min burst is mediocre comparing to Warrior, BM Hunter, or even Frost DK. As usual, the best tools Rets bring to the team is the off healing and support.
What I see from other offensive classes are:
1. Warrior and BM Hunter burst are retarded. Should not be ignored. Either CCed or take down first.
2. Demo lock is unkillable. Serving as a tank/bait in arena where locks run ahead to soak damage.
3. Frost DK outputs more sustained pressure and damage than warrior, but it is kind of squishy.
4. Mage, didn't see any good mages here. But they are definitely not as good as in Cata where they can pvp with just pve gear, and nobody can touch them. Some of these PVE mages, I killed them with just range attacks.
5. Both enhance and elemental shamans are squishy as usual. Usually targeted first by opposing teams. The burst from them are 2nd to warrior and BM hunter. But the survival is much worse compare to warrior and hunter.
6. haven't seen enough rogues/druids/monks/priests.
EDIT:
btw for shamans, 4 elementals, at around 30% PVP power, 4 elementals can 1 shot pretty much everything without immunity (even demo lock). It kinda felt like LichKing era. So aim for 30% pvp power.
By one shotting I assume you mean 4x flame shock + lava burst is a kill, not ascendance and spamming lava bursts in god mode equals a kill?Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
If so that's great to hear... I'm almost 90 and have taken a break at every level to pvp and even at 89 I still cannot one shot anything (maybe an 85 without pvp gear but who cares). The math makes sense though, 30 (or 40%?) base mitigation, 4x 30-40k lava bursts don't equal a kill on 160-300k hp. Nice to know some pvp power may change that.
30% pvp power is maxed out. All pvp gear + all pvp power gems. At that level, probably 2 elemental shamans can already burst 1 target down with a straight basic combo LB > FS > LVB > CL.
I wonder if this early if that's the way to go, that'll be a huge loss of spellpower
I've got heroic weapon and blue pvp gear; on a dummy that combo deals 19,1k, 8,9k 52k 17,3k = 97,3k *1,3 power ~126,5k *0,4 resilience ~50,5k *4 = 202k total, about 40% of a full geared player, ofc you do a bit more due to epic gear later in the season but still I doubt the effectiveness of that combo since it involves 3 castsQuote:
Originally Posted by remanz
well that's good because I suspect I'll be facing a lot of level 87s in arena :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruschpakx4
hm, you sure about the number ? I don't have a geared shaman, but my friend has a fully pvp geared elemental shaman. and he bursts my DK down within 6 seconds. SoloQuote:
Originally Posted by Kruschpakx4
97.3k x 1.3 = 126.5k x 0.4 (???) why 0.4 here. should be 0.6 isn't it ? should output 80k per shaman still this number is kinda low.
It's the base resil everyone gets, so all the dmg you do, gets reduced by at least 40%Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
I know that. "reduced by" it should be x 0.6 (1 - 0.4)Quote:
Originally Posted by valkry
I have a 489 weapon, fully pvp geared and my lava bursts hit for 46k on geared players. Which is a complete joke. Solo ele is in a really bad spot, but amazing as a team to multibox. The damage is garbage compared to other specs (count the amount og globals it takes to kill someone), and the defense is weak.
fully geared players have around 60% resilienceQuote:
Originally Posted by remanz
Beat me to itQuote:
Originally Posted by Kruschpakx4
Perfect pvp gear = about 40% total reduction of PVE damage after PVP power is taken into account.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kruschpakx4
Theres a post discussing it on AJ/MMO-Champion.
well , the calculation already factored in pvp power. Then my assessment is off. So overall elementals' damage is weak. I tried to play 5s last night. getting 15+mins queues, nobody plays 5s anymore. So ended up queuing 3 at a time. and took all night to cap the points.
Did arenas with 4 ele shamans. Got my cap pretty darn quick. Im only at 1500 rating with like 13 wins and 7 loss. Overall the dmg from 4 shamans are okay, you cant global anyone, but with critts on insta EB with trinket + Earth shock + LvB on a purged target is almost a guaranteed kill
No healer?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita
And when/how did you figure Ascendance into the mix? Poke at them a bit then pop it, or wait till they bursted first then do it?
4 ele shamans + a high duelist paladin. Tbh, I hardly use Ascendance, I even forget to use that damn stormlash. Havent done 5v5 since s10, still getting used to ele shamans and 5v5. But one thing Im using like a baws is hex, WS and purge. Hoping to push 1800-1900 before next reset.
It goes, your dmg, multiplied by your pvp power, then reduced by their resil.
Say you ahve 30% pvp power, they have 60% resil.
An attack does 100 dmg normally, now it will do 130 dmg to the enemy. They reduce that by 60%, you do 52 damage.
Your 30% pvp power doesn't cancel out 30% of their resil.
This is correct. Except that pvp power doesn't really multiply your damage but rather increase it as in [normal damage + (normale damage * pvp power)].Quote:
Originally Posted by valkry
PVP power has no influence on resilience, and the other way around. PVP increases your dmg vs players, resilience reduces your damage taken from players.
I can tell you that it is not actually reduced by 60% of PVE damage in full s12. Essentially the % increased pvp damage from PVP Power makes it so that 57.8% resil is less than stated. Theres a graph and explanation here
http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...silience-Guide
Because of the linear scaling of PVP Power you can essentially increase your damage more than it is reduced. As you can see if you can manage to get 56.7% of your PVE damage vs someone in full s12 gear not completely gemmed for pvp power, and a warrior can effectively get 66.8% normal damage with t2 + full pvp power gems etc.
PVP power scales linearly where as resil has diminishing returns.
not sure about EU, but you guys actually get to play 5s at all ? on US servers. I can't get any match to pop at all.
2-4 min que in 5v5. Its the same as its allways been. Got heroic weapons on all shamans now. Sitting at 30% PvP power + 16k SP. Pushing higher this week, hopefully i'll hit 1900-2000 rating. Will post how it went :)
Resilience does not have diminishing returns. You probably mean that once beyond a certain point, if you stack 1 extra resilience that you get less of a gain in absolute value. But that doesn't mean that it's proportionally worse (and that is what diminishing returns are).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodokan
Example:
A player has 30% mitigation, so it means that if you deal 100 damage, he will take 70 damage.
That player adds another 20% mitigation, so if you deal 100 damage to him, he will eat 50 dmg.
By stacking an extra 20% resilience, he takes 29% less damage than before.
Which is basically exactly the opposite of diminishing returns. Because the higher your mitigation is, the higher that the effect of adding more resilience iwill be, just not in absolute numbers.
An more extreme example:
You have 10% resilience and add 1%, If a player deals 100 damage to you, you would receive 90, with increasing your resilience by 1% you will now take 89 damage. or you have just reduced the anount of damage you took by 1,2%.
In other words: the effect of adding 1% mitigation is a 1.2% dmg reduction taken.
You have 90% resilience and add 1%, If a player deals 100 damage to you, you would receive 10, with increasing your resilience by 1% you will now take 9 damage. or you have just reduced the anount of damage you took by 10%.
In other words: the effect of adding 1% mitigation is a 10% dmg reduction taken.
I assume this is EU ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita
From past experience the amount of resil required for 1% damage reduction goes up.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenga
Basically... with gear + gems you get more pvp power faster than you get damage reduction through resil which actually means throughout the seasons yes you will have more negation percentage but the increased damage will more than likely net a higher damage gain over said reduction. (vangurads did a whole video on this as well)
30% pvp power, so you went with solid pvp power gems in every slot? or some mixed ones to pick up socket bonuses?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikita
I don't have full season 12 yet but it doesn't look like 30% pvp power is possible without gems in almost every slot.
Also, how did you find a good healer? I've been out of the boxing and 5v5 scene since wrath. It was hard to find a healer back then, I ended up with a dpriest that was very nice and dedicated, but the two problems were that he was a priest and that he wasn't very good - I blame him for getting stuck at 2100 and quitting. THen again 2100 in that season was #1-3 for boxers in the world, not counting cheaters and win traders.
So I have to convince a good paladin on the server to try it out, just for fun... someone that's already meeting their pvp goals in 3v3 and doesn't care that the team is experimental at this stage.
Heyaz and remanz
I went for full PvP power gems in every slot, all the r1 guys go for that.
Yes, 2-4 min que in 5v5 are in EU, Im playing on EU Ravencrest, Alliance.
Without sounding like a total douche, Im actually pretty well known on my realm. Im nice to everyone, even haters. Ive done tons of 3v3 with 2200+ players. So there is allways some guys who wants to test it out. My former paladin who I played with in s10 just came back. He is pushing glad in 3v3 this season, so he will get the conq weapons and t2 weapon pretty fast, which helps a ton when it comes to surviving that retarded mage, spriest, hunter and warrior dmg.
Im still tweaking my macros for arena, would gladly share my ideas if anyone is interested
Ya agreed. everyone is gemming for pvp power now.
EU is great. I am stuck for US servers for now.
10% Resilience is 10% reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenga
20% Resilience is 20% reduction.
That's a given.
What he means is, at some point linear returns become diminishing returns.
As in, it might be 1000 rating for 10%, up to a point.
But then it becomes 1200 rating for the next 10%.
And 1600 rating for the next 10%.
PvP Power stays the same rating for each 10%.
100% this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ualaa
The pace at which resilience rating converts into absolute damage reduction slows down by each extra point of resilience rating you gain, which is basically a diminishing return on resilience rating for scaling purposes. However the importance/value of damage reduction increases the more you have. And it increases at a faster rate than the diminishing returns of resilience rating does, thus making resilience actually having stacking returns (dont know the exact word in English, but the returns do not diminish but increase)Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodokan
Or ... the effect of adding resilience becomes bigger the more resilience you have. Thus resilience does not have diminishing returns whatsoever.
http://i.imgur.com/Wp3SF.png
B is the amount of resilience you have
A is the amount of extra mitigation you get per extra point of resilience rating.
C is the value of damage mitigation
The first curve goes down slower than the 2nd one climbs, relative to your amount of resilience.
I'm not sure if I'm the best at explaining this, and it might be confusing, but this is how it works.
Edit: I didn't say / give the impression that pvp power is worse or better than resilience, I basically just commented on your statement that resilience has diminishing returns.
It stacks decently well... but the other person's information shows that pvp power and resil actually come to a point where you deal more damage % than the reduced amount should allow (Should only do 40% damage but does 54% etc)Quote:
Originally Posted by zenga
I'm not saying resil is bad, or that pvp power is the best thing since sliced bread (it is better than main stats for a bunch of classes) but they do interact with one another and have an effect on damage done and the reduction of said damage being equal to if you had only reduced it by Y% opposed to the original X%.