For anyone interested in how Ret Pallies have changed in MoP, this is a fairly good review, I'm not convinced that the damage is really as low as it seems, it looks REALLY bad right now... crusader strike hitting for 6-12k and TV hitting 16k non-crit, with VERY few crits at all...
Watch and /discuss
This is Preach Gaming reviewing the current Retribution Paladin changes in MoP.
TLDW: Ret pally mechanics while improved still hit like wet noodles, and have significant downtime problems...
Not sure if ret is where we want it, to be competitive with DKs and other melee teams. I still think feral druids will be better than ret pallies if things don't improve
05-08-2012, 04:03 AM
Selz
Well, It's still early in the beta. Surely the damage seems a litle too low in the video, and I have also heard about the downtime situations.
But it's still work in progess, final level on beta is not even tested yet. I believe that's where the final tunings takes place.:)
05-08-2012, 05:37 AM
Mokoi
well yes, of course. it's too early, but take a look at the other classes. watch the warlocks do 80k crits. Watch other classes do MUCH better in DPS right now -__- this means that either Paladins have some kind of hidden mechanic to drag their DPS back in line at lvl 90, or it's just garbage again.
05-08-2012, 07:37 AM
Multibocks
It's still beta and we really don't know how paladins will be at 90.
05-08-2012, 09:00 AM
Noids
Gotta compare it to other melee classes rather than casters. Damage will be balanced around lvl 90s not 85s and the lvl 90 weps hit much harder. Thus the reduction in percentage of weapon damage contributing to strikes for all melee classes. Ret Pals are still looking good for boxers, because they are so much easier to get an efficent rotation going for than before and they have some really nice burst potential.
Just jumped on beta because its a week or two since I played the pally. Premade pally with 371 PvP gear is landing 11-14k crusader strikes for me, 21-24k TV and 15k exo procs. I still can't test judgement because it has 13d of cooldown left due to a bug with the PvP gear, but from memory that was a ranged 6-7k hit also. All of these numbers are non-crit by the way and without having inquisition up. Self buffed with kings and on a lvl 85 dummy.
05-08-2012, 10:11 AM
Fat Tire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noids
Gotta compare it to other melee classes rather than casters. Damage will be balanced around lvl 90s not 85s and the lvl 90 weps hit much harder. Thus the reduction in percentage of weapon damage contributing to strikes for all melee classes. Ret Pals are still looking good for boxers, because they are so much easier to get an efficent rotation going for than before and they have some really nice burst potential.
Just jumped on beta because its a week or two since I played the pally. Premade pally with 371 PvP gear is landing 11-14k crusader strikes for me, 21-24k TV and 15k exo procs. I still can't test judgement because it has 13d of cooldown left due to a bug with the PvP gear, but from memory that was a ranged 6-7k hit also. All of these numbers are non-crit by the way and without having inquisition up. Self buffed with kings and on a lvl 85 dummy.
Melee scaling was cut by 50% and melee weapon damage was doubled(white hits).
05-08-2012, 02:08 PM
Multibocks
Go watch videos of shockadins critting for over 100k. They nerfed holy shock by 50% but still that's a lot of damage for a class that can heal insanely well.
05-08-2012, 06:00 PM
Ughmahedhurtz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibocks
It's still beta and we really don't know how paladins will be at 90.
I understand your point but this kind of argument is quite specious. We've been told to shut up because "things will change before it goes live" every beta, yet when things come out that were a problem in beta as well, the ones that told us to shut up gripe that it should have been fixed in beta. It's perfectly valid to see a problem in beta and bring it up (loudly if it's a really bad one) so we're damned sure the devs know about it in detail.
Or did you have a link to a blue post acknowledging the problem/perception and explaining that they are accounting for that with scaling/abilities/itemization/etc. at 90?
05-08-2012, 10:11 PM
Mokoi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibocks
It's still beta and we really don't know how paladins will be at 90.
yes yes, I understand.
If we all just ignored beta, NOBODY would say anything about MoP yet, and we would be bored. We want to take the information we have now, and use it to plan our teams for the expansion. :P Im in the process of RAF lvling teams, so it IS relevant to do my best to make informed decisions a bout my play until MoP
05-08-2012, 11:40 PM
Ualaa
Looking at the early beta stuff...
The video of which class can kill a level 86/87 character, who had BiS and was Plate for maximum armor mitigation...
The Ret Paladin had the highest DPS (quickest kill), out of everybody.
Later on in the beta, they nerf the damage a bit, because it was over the top.
Now maybe it's not enough.
Chances are, it will be adjusted to be in line with other melee.
From a boxing point of view, we're concerned with an easy to macro rotation.
With decent sustained damage, for PvE.
Or with strong burst damage, for PvP... possibly with good AoE/Cleave potential, as another consideration.
Ret Pallies have other advantages...
Assuming the DPS is close enough in line to other melee options...
A Ret wears Plate, can bubble, has very easy to macro and quite effective cooldowns such as Guardian King/Avenging Wrath/Aura Mastery/Divine Protection/Etc..
They're going to have far higher survival, than say Enhance Shamans (who might put out more DPS)...
Word of Glory, without a cooldown, looks to be very nice healing.
Sacred Shield is more healing, and passively.
Pursuit of Justice, will be faster movement than most other classes.
You can self Cleanse away all Poison/Diseases (Crippling Poison) in one go.
Self Emancipate, to remove a movement impairing effect.
Hand of Freedom, for when you need mobility.
They can Rebuke, the same as DK's can Mind Freeze.
Also off of the GCD, for very strong anti-caster melee power.
Sure, if the damage and lack of burst remain to MoP.
A lot of these won't make a difference for the class/spec.
But if the damage is close enough to other options...
They have a lot of survival, mobility, healing, mitigation, cooldown power... in addition to their damage.
05-09-2012, 12:21 AM
Mokoi
Yeah, I agree, but I am worried that they will never bring Paladin damage in line with other Melee, like DKs because of course... they can also heal very very well.
Anyway, I am still happy enough that I am filling out my paladin team. I was just a bit disappointed a bit by their damage. I wasn't saying they were not a good idea, I was a bit chocked to see the state of the paladin at the moment.
They are actually still one of my favorite teams for MoP :) I was just hoping for a week of OP GOODNESS like the last week of BC! Anyone? Anyone? Divine Storm x5? hahahah.. good times.
05-09-2012, 12:28 AM
Ughmahedhurtz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokoi
Yeah, I agree, but I am worried that they will never bring Paladin damage in line with other Melee, like DKs because of course... they can also heal very very well.
DK's already self-heal better than paladins. We won't mention holy paladins because they aren't capable of the DPS output of DPS or tank-spec paladins or any flavor of DK.
05-09-2012, 12:32 AM
Ualaa
I'm leveling Pally's too.
They could be a strong team, so for the potential... it's worthwhile.
They're actually leveling as Shock'adins now.
And with the changes to Holy, to be able to level and quest in Holy spec...
5x Holy wouldn't be that bad, boxed either; especially when considering their survival power.
My single H.Paladin is quite strong on the Pally/DK team...
Going with five, allows for five focus targets during hectic situations.
Or to rotate which Pally is doing the mana intensive, but high output, healing. http://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/4...-Paladin-Guide
05-09-2012, 12:47 AM
Mokoi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ughmahedhurtz
DK's already self-heal better than paladins. We won't mention holy paladins because they aren't capable of the DPS output of DPS or tank-spec paladins or any flavor of DK.
umm.. i dont see frost or unholy DKs doing that much healing.. am I missing something? Blood maybe, but of course their DPS isn't amazing.
05-09-2012, 07:31 AM
Multibocks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ughmahedhurtz
I understand your point but this kind of argument is quite specious. We've been told to shut up because "things will change before it goes live" every beta, yet when things come out that were a problem in beta as well, the ones that told us to shut up gripe that it should have been fixed in beta. It's perfectly valid to see a problem in beta and bring it up (loudly if it's a really bad one) so we're damned sure the devs know about it in detail.
Or did you have a link to a blue post acknowledging the problem/perception and explaining that they are accounting for that with scaling/abilities/itemization/etc. at 90?
Hmm I think I did read a blue saying that 90 is where the balance would be, but don't quote me on it. What I was saying was wait til 90 is achievable in beta and then if they are still fucked up then shout it to the world.
05-09-2012, 09:09 AM
Fat Tire
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokoi
umm.. i dont see frost or unholy DKs doing that much healing.. am I missing something? Blood maybe, but of course their DPS isn't amazing.
I played eots on the beta at 87 and could not be killed as frost. I had conversion and a 2 hander in which you gain rp for auto attacks. I compared it to rogues recup but better.
05-09-2012, 05:47 PM
Ughmahedhurtz
Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibocks
What I was saying was wait til 90 is achievable in beta and then if they are still fucked up then shout it to the world.
Fair point. The PTR should also eventually have tier armor on premades for DPS testing, right? Not sure as I've yet to participate in a beta since the original release beta.
05-09-2012, 08:21 PM
Mokoi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Tire
I played eots on the beta at 87 and could not be killed as frost. I had conversion and a 2 hander in which you gain rp for auto attacks. I compared it to rogues recup but better.
Oh that's great! I watched a video of someone reviewing the talents, and at least on a test dummy (maybe you get less RP?) he said that the healing wasn't very good. So its good to hear you get enough healing out of it.
05-09-2012, 11:41 PM
Multibocks
DK healing is sick, sick, sick. I watch a beta stream of this guy who only pvps and sometimes it takes 4 people to kill him, 2 if they are good pvper's. Watching 4-5k heals go off every second, in addition to all the defensive cooldowns was crazy. He'd start fights at 30% and finish full health. I'm sure it's going to get the nerf bat soon, it's way too OP.
I can't believe no one commented on my shockadin post. I couldn't believe what I was seeing when some guy was hitting 50k 100k 50k 100k every cooldown during wings. He DOMINATED the damage done in the BG, not even close. Of course it was nerfed 50%, but its still probably OP. Makes wings actually scary again.
05-10-2012, 12:51 AM
Mokoi
Multi, I saw. I also watched a great PvP stream where a ret pally went up against gladiator arena players in BiS (of course not PvP) gear, and the ret aplly was no better than average, and got destroyed by several classes, most noteably by the warlock (Demo, Destro and Affliction).
The nerf to Holy shock is huge. It still hits well, but not nearly as much as it did, and I agree it's better this way, but it hits about as hard as a frost strike, and less than howling blast I think. And it's not aoe
05-10-2012, 03:02 AM
Ualaa
Holy Shock, as an instant cast...
With the GCD reduced by your haste rating.
And without any form of a cooldown.
Assuming you take that talent.
With 5x Shock'adins...
If Pallies have enough damage to kill single targets in succession, assuming a 4/5x group...
It might not be a bad idea to run 5x heals.
You'll have very good survivability, but lack a bit against cleave compositions.
Still, my 1x Pally... on the Pally/4x DK team, can be pretty scary in the amount of healing output she does.
Imagine having five of those.
And the ability to do some decent damage, even if you're taking out opponents one at a time.
My 5x Resto Druids can consistently take out 2-3x their number, anytime players ignore CC, and go for straight damage based killing...
05-10-2012, 03:14 AM
Mokoi
Ualaa, BTW have you been following resto druids at all for your resto team? Does the voting of insect swarm off the island change your thoughts on the team? Or is everything still looking good. I am considering a great 5x resto druid and 5x demo lock team which should be an unavoidable machine of hatred.
05-10-2012, 06:50 PM
Ualaa
Haven't really followed much, beyond occasionally searching youtube for videos.
Or reading what has been posted here.
My team would be primarily Feral.
The same as the Pallies are ideally primarily Ret.
It's just that the healing off-spec... works very well, and is quite effective.
05-10-2012, 11:14 PM
Multibocks
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mokoi
Multi, I saw. I also watched a great PvP stream where a ret pally went up against gladiator arena players in BiS (of course not PvP) gear, and the ret aplly was no better than average, and got destroyed by several classes, most noteably by the warlock (Demo, Destro and Affliction).
The nerf to Holy shock is huge. It still hits well, but not nearly as much as it did, and I agree it's better this way, but it hits about as hard as a frost strike, and less than howling blast I think. And it's not aoe
