Against the rules?

I'm about ready to pull the trigger and get back into multiboxing. I've always been a huge HKN and Freddie fan, but ISBoxer seems to be nothing short of incredible. If it's truly as easy as the videos make it out to be to set up FTL and many other complex macros, all outside of WoW, then it's going to take lots of pain out of the configuration process (the stuff that is fun to do the first time, but making little tweaks for your team gets very tiresome after a while).

I realize that are many things in HKN that if used improperly it would break the rules. In the following post, I noticed Ualaa mention functionality in ISBoxer that I would consider a violation, but I'd like to hear the community's viewpoint:

http://www.dual-boxing.com/showpost....7&postcount=25

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Originally Posted by Ualaa

Or for it to reset to Step 1, "x.x" seconds after the first press or after the most recent press.

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Having it reset after x seconds after the most recent press is no big deal as you can easily replicate that in WoW. However, having it reset x seconds after the first press seems to add intelligence to button mashing that can not be replicated without software assistance. It allows the software to basically time usage of cooldown abilities (for example not allow wild growth to be cast for 6 seconds and cast nourish the entire time instead).

I think there's a reason Blizzard doesn't have this functionality. Users on this forum have been able to make creative macros using castsequence with commas to simulate timing, but having softward actually keep track of time since first key press seems over the line.

Thoughts?

If you feel uncertain about the use of certain functions in ISboxer/IS then don't use em :) - without being harsh towards your post.

Theres a lot of discussions around some of the functionalities in ISboxer on this forum - like the option to receive a keypress on both the down press and on the release of a button....

wow macros in game have the same capability to reset the macro after x seconds. I'm not sure I see what your concerned about. and involving the up and down keystroke, I know there are mods out there that are used (not part of isboxer) that change your key inputs to activate on the downpress instead of lifting up like wow is setup as. there is 1 action per keystroke. 1 for keystroke down, 1 for keystroke up. there's no programming that makes an action happen and action only happens from you physically pressing buttons that coincide with the action. I don't see any gray area at all personally. Now if you had delays that did multiple actions on one keypress over a period of time after that keypress, that would be against policy imo.

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Originally Posted by outdrsyguy1

wow macros in game have the same capability to reset the macro after x seconds. I'm not sure I see what your concerned about. and involving the up and down keystroke, I know there are mods out there that are used (not part of isboxer) that change your key inputs to activate on the downpress instead of lifting up like wow is setup as. there is 1 action per keystroke. 1 for keystroke down, 1 for keystroke up. there's no programming that makes an action happen and action only happens from you physically pressing buttons that coincide with the action. I don't see any gray area at all personally. Now if you had delays that did multiple actions on one keypress over a period of time after that keypress, that would be against policy imo.

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In game WoW macros only have the ability to reset the macro after X seconds if the macro hasn't been called again. What this functionality allows is for the same key to continue being pressed, but ISBoxer is blocking WoW from ever seeing a certain key press for a certain amount of time - in essence a delay.

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Originally Posted by Seldum

If you feel uncertain about the use of certain functions in ISboxer/IS then don't use em :) - without being harsh towards your post.

Theres a lot of discussions around some of the functionalities in ISboxer on this forum - like the option to receive a keypress on both the down press and on the release of a button....

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I understand you're not trying to be harsh towards the post :) However, I'm not sure what your point is. The multiboxing community is largely self regulated as most of us have a passion for playing the game within the rules. There are plenty of ways that we could bot using ISBoxer, HKN, etc, but as a community we tend to stay away from anything that would cast us in that light. With that in mind, I brought up the point of having the software do something that can not be replicated using just WoW (key up and key down can be replicated in WoW) and seems awfuly close to delays.

Whether it's against the rules or not, I'll have to make a personal choice on if to use the functionality. I'm not asking the community if I should use it or not, I'm asking if they think it's against the rules or not.

from what i can gather from Lax, ISBoxer was specifically designed so you can't bot with it. Just so I am clear on what you're saying: I could put a spell on key 1, another spell on key 2, press 1 once, then 2 three times, then 1 again at exactly 2 presses per second. The above functionality you mentioned will do that on 1 button instead of two, similar to how we all write click macros with commas. Have I got that right?

In which case I'm not concerned. I would be concerned if after x seconds ISBoxer would ACTION a keystroke, which it won't do.

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Originally Posted by Owltoid

I understand you're not trying to be harsh towards the post :) However, I'm not sure what your point is. The multiboxing community is largely self regulated as most of us have a passion for playing the game within the rules. There are plenty of ways that we could bot using ISBoxer, HKN, etc, but as a community we tend to stay away from anything that would cast us in that light. With that in mind, I brought up the point of having the software do something that can not be replicated using just WoW (key up and key down can be replicated in WoW) and seems awfuly close to delays.

Whether it's against the rules or not, I'll have to make a personal choice on if to use the functionality. I'm not asking the community if I should use it or not, I'm asking if they think it's against the rules or not.

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The problem with this is, mostly, the multiboxing community is wrong in their understanding of the rules. Which is why people seem to cry wolf so fast. Blizzard wants to make sure you are there playing the game and not harassing others, past that, they've proven (by not taking action) they really don't care what else goes on. You can achieve similar things with Nostromo software, and I assume the G15 and other similar software. So if you're asking the community if they think having a keymap reset after X seconds from the FIRST press is against the rules, I as a member of the community, respond with a resounding No. Am I an expert on what is allowed and what is not? By no means I am not. But this functionality still requires you be PRESENT at the keyboard and PUSHING BUTTONS to accomplish something.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

PUSHING BUTTONS

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Svper I prefer the term MASHING...

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Originally Posted by thefunk

from what i can gather from Lax, ISBoxer was specifically designed so you can't bot with it. Just so I am clear on what you're saying: I could put a spell on key 1, another spell on key 2, press 1 once, then 2 three times, then 1 again at exactly 2 presses per second. The above functionality you mentioned will do that on 1 button instead of two, similar to how we all write click macros with commas. Have I got that right?

In which case I'm not concerned. I would be concerned if after x seconds ISBoxer would ACTION a keystroke, which it won't do.

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You are correct. You could time yourself well, press the 2 key three times, and then switch back to the 1 key.

However, with ISBoxer, you no longer have to think about anything. You can just spam the 3 key as much as you want, and ISBoxer will take care of when the 3 translates into 1 and when the 3 translates into 2 using a clock. If it didn't use a clock then I'd have no issue with it... but isn't that all delays are is disabling something until a predefined amount of time expires?

In my opinion, if you think delays are against the rules, then you'd agree this is against the rules. (I realize many things can create delays, such as the fancier keyboards... but I thought the community interprested using those delays as against the rules).

ISXBoxer cannot be used for botting. That's what ISXWoW and ISXWarden used to be for in combination with say.. OpenBot.
You can use Innerspace + ISXBoxer without any worries.

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

The problem with this is, mostly, the multiboxing community is wrong in their understanding of the rules. Which is why people seem to cry wolf so fast. Blizzard wants to make sure you are there playing the game and not harassing others, past that, they've proven (by not taking action) they really don't care what else goes on. You can achieve similar things with Nostromo software, and I assume the G15 and other similar software. So if you're asking the community if they think having a keymap reset after X seconds from the FIRST press is against the rules, I as a member of the community, respond with a resounding No. Am I an expert on what is allowed and what is not? By no means I am not. But this functionality still requires you be PRESENT at the keyboard and PUSHING BUTTONS to accomplish something.

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Would you have a problem with pushing a button once, having it send the number 1 to WoW, waiting two seconds, and then sending the number 2 to WoW?

I'm not trolling and not trying to start a heated conversation but instead trying to get the common viewpoint on when software intelligence goes too far. If people want to play with delays then more power to them, but that doesn't stop the conversation of whether it's legit or not :)

And I disagree with the multiboxing community being wrong with their interpretation of the rules... if you have any examples I'd love to hear them!

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Originally Posted by warbringer

ISXBoxer cannot be used for botting. That's what ISXWoW and ISXWarden used to be for in combination with say.. OpenBot.
You can use Innerspace + ISXBoxer without any worries.

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I apologize if I was wrong. You can use HKN for botting because you can press one button and have HKN push buttons at predefined times for the next 10 minutes if you want. That fits my definition of botting, though I doubt anyone would truly use HKN as it would likely be way too complicated and there are other options out there.

I was under the impression that you could do similar things with ISBoxer, but I admit I haven't used the program still. I thought it would be able to push one button, and have ISBoxer go through different steps for the next 5 minutes if you set it up to do so.

Botting was definitely a term I shouldn't have introduced into the conversation :) Instead I should have just referenced delays.

I think the point svper is making is that we have exhausted this topic to death. Are you at your computer? Yes. Are you manually controlling your toons? Yes. Therefore it should be ok.

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However, with ISBoxer, you no longer have to think about anything. You can just spam the 3 key as much as you want, and ISBoxer will take care of when the 3 translates into 1 and when the 3 translates into 2 using a clock. If it didn't use a clock then I'd have no issue with it... but isn't that all delays are is disabling something until a predefined amount of time expires?

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What? This is not what a delay is in the context that Blizzard is concerned about. If a "delay" means you push a button for a while and different things might happen each time, then what do you think of /castsequence + /click? It's the same concept.

A delay in the sense that is considered automation is as follows: I press a key. 2 seconds later with no further action, as a result only of my pressing the key 2 seconds prior, something else happens. And hey, why stop there, 2 seconds later it happens again. And then again 2 seconds later. Now, 6 seconds apart, 3 things happened without my touching the keys, and I didn't even need to be at the computer anymore (this specifically is where "1 Key = 1 Action" comes from). ISBoxer does not provide any method of creating a delay.

If you are pressing the buttons to cause instant action at the time of the press (and/or release), and this action happens without any input from the game environment etc, and without otherwise breaking the EULA/ToS, you're not botting.

Past that if you think something you could possibly do might be against the rules, don't do it. From my understanding of the actual rules, and conversations between me and Blizzard, I don't see anything implemented in or configured through ISBoxer as being a problem. In the end everyone has different ideas of what automation means (especially who have no experience with bots) and so there's a lot of different interpretations of the rules, GM posts, etc. Use your own judgment and you'll be fine.

Edit:

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I thought it would be able to push one button, and have ISBoxer go through different steps for the next 5 minutes if you set it up to do so.

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Oh definitely not, thanks for clearing that up for us :)

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Originally Posted by thefunk

I think the point svper is making is that we have exhausted this topic to death. Are you at your computer? Yes. Are you manually controlling your toons? Yes. Therefore it should be ok.

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That's fine by me, but that also means the community has changed over the past couple of years :) Evilseed was banned for many reasons, but part of his flame war was against using his mouse broadcasting programs that send the mouse cursor to a predefined location on the slave screens (the community thought that was too much automation).

I am glad that I'm getting a warm fuzzy feeling about using these "delays" from the community, as that will help influence my decision to use them, which will make my toons easier to play.

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Originally Posted by Owltoid

Would you have a problem with pushing a button once, having it send the number 1 to WoW, waiting two seconds, and then sending the number 2 to WoW?

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Now you're making stuff up to argue? No, pushing a button once, waiting, and sending another button (or the same) would constitute a delay, delays being against the rules. This is NOT what your original post described. What your original post described (Keymap resetting after X seconds) is NOT a delay. You still have to PUSH or MASH the buttons for an action to happen. The only thing that gets changed during the button mashing is the keys that are sent. it does not send any keys without you telling it to.

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Originally Posted by Owltoid

I'm not trolling and not trying to start a heated conversation but instead trying to get the common viewpoint on when software intelligence goes too far. If people want to play with delays then more power to them, but that doesn't stop the conversation of whether it's legit or not :)

And I disagree with the multiboxing community being wrong with their interpretation of the rules... if you have any examples I'd love to hear them!

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People aren't playing with delays with ISBoxer (If they are, they're doing it outside of IS/ISBoxer. When you start a "Against the rules?" Thread, you're going to get these kinds of responses :_) I understand you have a legitimate concern, but I think that you're thinking more is happening than what actually is. As I said above, there are no programmed delays in the Keymap reset.

An example of the general multiboxing community being wrong in their interpretation is the 1 key to 1 action rule. It's been proven time and time again to not be the case. GMs have confirmed multiple actions in 1 keystrokes are fine. (Kromtor got a GM response about a G15 macro that sends more than 1 key) But I'm not here to debate that in this thread. I'm just trying to explain that ISBoxer is fine, and I don't like fear mongering "AGAINST THE RULEZ" Thread titles.

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Originally Posted by Lax

What? This is not what a delay is in the context that Blizzard is concerned about. If a "delay" means you push a button for a while and different things might happen each time, then what do you think of /castsequence + /click? It's the same concept.

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I'm ok with the /castsequence and /click combination because (1) you can do it inside of WoW (duh :) ) and (2) it's not using an external clock but instead relying on human timing.

I don't want to continue beating a dead horse since I think it's clear that the community is ok with the funcionality. Thanks for all the constructive replies :) I'm really looking forward to ISBoxer!

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Originally Posted by Svpernova09

I'm just trying to explain that ISBoxer is fine, and I don't like fear mongering "AGAINST THE RULEZ" Thread titles.

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You had the same overreaction years ago when I started a thread about removing /follow and thought I was trying to incite the community. Not all threads are fear mongering... sometimes people just like to have a discussion on what is legit and what is a gray area. There was nothing hostile in this thread. Let's all move on :)

My two cents...

Hundreds (or thousands; only Lax has the numbers) use IS Boxer for a multitude of games. To date, to my knowledge no one has been banned for its use in any game.

Use what you're comfortable with, and don't use whatever functions you think might be in a grey area; I don't use all of the functionality of IS Boxer... But even if you consider an area to be grey, no one has been banned or suspended for using it, which says something there.