4x Enhancement arena?

Been testing it for a few days now, and sorry guys it does'nt work very well.

With no MS and lousy burst, 1 healer can outheal full cooldowns (minus heroism). I tested against a druid in tree form.... took me about 30 seconds to finally outdps his healing and kill him. All I can say is I am REALLY surprised how lousy the dmg is... and I believe strongly it will NOT be competitive at higher than 1600 or so.

Edit: On a better note, they FINALLY FIXED the battleground group shifting. You can now move people amongst groups already containing players. Currently in 3.2 you can only move BG members to an empty untouched group slot.

Aelli and i had a long discussion about this setup and came to the conclusion it wouldnt work either. Im above 1800 and had 2200+ arena points. was so close to buying the axes to try but then i thought how the hell am i going to get out of roots. a good mage will keep you in place all damn day. If im correct earthbind only works on snares right? 8 Dogs seems awesome but to what extent. Thanks for confirming now i wont waste arena points on that setup!

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Originally Posted by asonimie

Been testing it for a few days now, and sorry guys it does'nt work very well.

With no MS and lousy burst, 1 healer can outheal full cooldowns (minus heroism). I tested against a druid in tree form.... took me about 30 seconds to finally outdps his healing and kill him. All I can say is I am REALLY surprised how lousy the dmg is... and I believe strongly it will NOT be competitive at higher than 1600 or so.

Edit: On a better note, they FINALLY FIXED the battleground group shifting. You can now move people amongst groups already containing players. Currently in 3.2 you can only move BG members to an empty untouched group slot.

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I think we should start a campaign to get enhancement an MS effect. ;p

and yes EP is for snare effects only. Really need a pally to freedom ya.

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Originally Posted by asonimie

Been testing it for a few days now, and sorry guys it does'nt work very well.

With no MS and lousy burst, 1 healer can outheal full cooldowns (minus heroism). I tested against a druid in tree form.... took me about 30 seconds to finally outdps his healing and kill him. All I can say is I am REALLY surprised how lousy the dmg is... and I believe strongly it will NOT be competitive at higher than 1600 or so.

Edit: On a better note, they FINALLY FIXED the battleground group shifting. You can now move people amongst groups already containing players. Currently in 3.2 you can only move BG members to an empty untouched group slot.

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even with the hounds?

IIRC enh shammys did have a MS during a PTR? Maybe you could see it return.

Even with hounds. I know I was truly shocked, after playing my rogues for 2 days who can 2 shot anyone who isn't prot specd. I was saving points for enhancement gear also, but I'm glad I tested this. DON'T BUY IT. Will not work as is.

Maybe pve would be better for quad enhance!

i don't understand how that cuold not work... enh shaman solo just rip things apart. strange how some things just don't work 4x.

Good thing, I almost starting buying enh gear tonight because they're all honor capped
guess I'm getting gems or resto stuff

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Originally Posted by asonimie

Even with hounds. I know I was truly shocked, after playing my rogues for 2 days who can 2 shot anyone who isn't prot specd. I was saving points for enhancement gear also, but I'm glad I tested this. DON'T BUY IT. Will not work as is.

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Were you spam purging the HoTs? because I don't see how he could heal without kiting you completely. Should also try it on other healers as well. I bet you global priests without pain suppression up, and rip through them quickly anyway when they do.

Theorycrafting, I'd think an Enhancement would add a ton to a melee team.
The same as an Elemental boosts the crap out of casters.

Of course, in practice... mixed teams are rarely as good as the sum of their parts, at least in arena.

Hmm, not trying to doubt the validity here but how was your gear on the 4x enhancement. Really well geared enhancement Shamans on triple melee cleave teams are usually the highest amount of damage done total and they don't even aoe.
I think they are viable but there is really no answer to the roots problem void and I came up with :(

Gear? PTR. Full relentless premades with double 2.6 1800rating axes. WFs hitting with 7500AP.

Fully top geared.

And @naysayser: No I did not spam purge hots unless there was nothing else to cast because in a real arena game with 2 healers someone else will always be healing your target. No the druid didn't kite me around, the druid was my roommate and we did a "sitting duck" target test basically, just sat there and let me beat on him target dummy style, basically best case scenario.

I will play with them some more but I was being realistic about the situation with my prediction because I know how the CC, roots, and especially HEALING are at top end arena... their damage just doesn't feel right at all. It felt like playing with 2 elementals. Also, I'm not going to do damage tests on a mage or some piece of kleenex class - eventually you will need to kill a plate.... and the shaman damage suffered badly here (tree form=plate dps armor). Also roots suck, but they aren't a game ender with 2-3 ways to break roots.

The reason I'm being negative here is because A) Its true and B) Lots of people are thinking about dumping valuable points on enhancement gear right now and I don't want anyone making an irreversible mistake.

Edit: If anyone wants to do further testing with enhancement, I already have the toons, gearing, and macros ready to go. I can't do infinite testing because we are out of premade copies, but please contact me and make a healer / whatever class, and I'll come beat on you while we discuss things over vent. I am happy to help in any way.

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Originally Posted by asonimie

Gear? PTR. Full relentless premades with double 2.6 1800rating axes. WFs hitting with 7500AP.

Fully top geared.

And @naysayser: No I did not spam purge hots unless there was nothing else to cast because in a real arena game with 2 healers someone else will always be healing your target. No the druid didn't kite me around, the druid was my roommate and we did a "sitting duck" target test basically, just sat there and let me beat on him target dummy style, basically best case scenario.

I will play with them some more but I was being realistic about the situation with my prediction because I know how the CC, roots, and especially HEALING are at top end arena... their damage just doesn't feel right at all. It felt like playing with 2 elementals. Also, I'm not going to do damage tests on a mage or some piece of kleenex class - eventually you will need to kill a plate.... and the shaman damage suffered badly here (tree form=plate dps armor). Also roots suck, but they aren't a game ender with 2-3 ways to break roots.

The reason I'm being negative here is because A) Its true and B) Lots of people are thinking about dumping valuable points on enhancement gear right now and I don't want anyone making an irreversible mistake.

Edit: If anyone wants to do further testing with enhancement, I already have the toons, gearing, and macros ready to go. I can't do infinite testing because we are out of premade copies, but please contact me and make a healer / whatever class, and I'll come beat on you while we discuss things over vent. I am happy to help in any way.

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were you interrupting his casted heals? If you are shocking his regrowths, and purging his rejuvs, i don't see how he could live more than 4 seconds oO sure, he has a couple good cooldowns, but.. it seems like something is missing.

was he playing a good druid, and hotting and then bearforming? because im sure then you would have a tough time doing anything to him, full relentless druid armor in bearform would be tough to crack =/

You guys are missing the point. I didn't want to test what it was like to fight an active kiting druid. He was simulating an average high armor target.... basically playing a training dummy with resilience that can heal itself. It could have been a dps warrior, ret pally, whatever. The point is against non cloth/leather targets, the dmg was low.

Purging and shocking? In a real arena match I would have focus assigned shocks and blah blah blah yes I am crazy good with macros and control... thats not the point. I let him heal, because it roughly simulates the amount of healing he would receive in a 5v5 match with the 2nd healer spamming him. Argue that if desired, but its the reality against a good 5v5 team. You won't successfully micromanage shocking every heal... not if you want to dps.

The point is, these guys are taking longer to dps someone down than other 4 dps comps I've been testing. The fact they are rootable, nonstealth, and have no MS means they have little to offer other than dps and hex... which is pretty much useless in 5v5 anyway. I have also come to realize the basic idea of enhancement shaman 4box arena is a bit flawed anyway, why? Enhancement shamans fit the same role as elemental shamans, ie. 4dps, no MS, poor cc etc. Enhancement doesn't bring any real tricks to the table that elemental doesn't already provide. So whats my point? High end arena healers vs. potential burst. The fellow top rated ele boxers and I will agree, that if we have trouble dropping a target with an instant 65-70k spell damage burst(not mitigated by armor) because enemy healers are so reactive and quick.... what makes us think we could drop a target from melee range with a max burst/second of maybe ~30k(resilience AND armor mitigated) ?? Exactly.

Also, I've been playing them in WSG to test open pvp... and they just get destroyed compared to my rogues or probably even pallies.... altho I have not been impressed with ret pallies either.

fyi, since 4 days ago my rogues on live are lvl 50 no RAF. This gives you an idea where I think the power is at.

6 seconds CD interrupt, and constant purging, those are the things that make enhancement kill healers. Without them, I don't think enhance can kill healers. So asonimie's testing is pretty accruate. In 5 v 5 arena, no way you interrupt the healer's heal if you are not on that healer. You need the burst or healing debuff to kill. I am sure he can kill the single tree druid quicker, if he rotate his interrupt and purge. But that's not realistic in an arena 5 v 5 situation.

Ret paladins has no interrupt, no healing debuff. So obviously it has higher burst. Especially when you open those wings after bubble, not to mention you have stun to keep your target there. Also I think the strength of paladins is the defense. The instant heal + hots x 4 really = a holy paladin currently (not sure after the nerf). So in 5 v 5, you basically have 5 dps and 1 holy paladin healing.

About rogues, I see it working with all CDs intact. What happen after you blow your CDs and kill 1 target. Plus as far as burst go, it seems only combat spec can deal high burst. But the survival is kinda low for them.

@rogues: just the opposite. I tried both specs with the following results.

Mut/Prep (assassination/sub): amazing dps, non-cooldown based. Mutilate alone will destroy any single target in 1-3 seconds (if not a tank w/ tank gear of course). Massive defensive cooldowns, and buffs to the important core abilities I need for 5v5. Some of my fastest kills were no cooldowns used, mut spam.

Combat/KS: Way more cooldown based, made me feel like a 3 minute mage back in the day. While killing spree is probably the funniest thing I have ever seen in wow (40 weapon hits in 2.5 seconds).... once the KS is done I feel rather naked with only SinisterStrike spam.

Seeing is believing, they sounded mediocre to me, but after killing priests stunned and dead in 2 seconds... I'm a believer. Biggest threat to a rogue? Melee cleave. 15-20second evasion while you kill all the casters? Amazing.

Oh and icing on the cake.. remember how much we shamans hate destro locks? Ya.. I kill them in about 2 seconds now.

But... But... They're defenses are all cooldowns! It just sounds, on paper, like it could never work. Can you Fraps some stuff up for us hard-to-be-convinced types? :)

Sure will! Already frapsd 4-5 engagements. I'll do some more right now.


Preparation = 2 sets of cooldowns, so its pretty hax.

Hmmm. BG type stuff or arena type stuff?

It just seems like any team is still going to be able to 4v5 you down after you gib one of their healers or DPS. Say it's a given that you murder your initial target. Then what? Pop Vanish and try it again? Sprint/Evasion and go after the number two target? it just seems like you'd be too easily CC'd after the initial target goes down. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and the concept is ridiculously powerful.

I guess having someone be MS'd, 70% snared, stunned, and casting slowed all at the same time would be pretty f'ing hot... Hmmmm. The more I think about it the more I like it. I guess if you could gib a DPS first and then immediately gib another DPS even while they're getting healed it'd just be a matter of mopping up at that point.

Now you're starting to see the light! :)

And gib me with what? I'm immune to melee for 15 seconds and I can rape any dangerous spellcaster in 2 seconds. Not exaggerating... 2 seconds of fully MS'd, mind poisoned, stunned death.

I can't promise anything, but I'm usually pretty accurate with me theory crafting... and the average match will probably go something like this:

4x Sap <trinketed>
Immediate 4-way Blind for full duration
Insta rape the shaman, warlock, non-frost mage, or druid.
FanOfKnives which puts MS, Snare, and Mind numbing on every target in 10 yards thats right... 3 poisons on everyone(or just leave them blinded - just as fun)
Vanish and walk away... sapping them over and over to keep from rezzing... or just start on target 2 right away... why not... they'll be dead in 3 seconds unless they're wearing pve prot gear.
++Evasion
Kill remaining spellcasters / healers while I lol@melee

Any problems in the above sequence... just hit Prep - and start the whole chain of cooldowns over again.

So far... my healer hasn't had to do much has he?

By the way... I'm even more excited about the damage after frapsing some more the last 60 minutes. I've killed DKs, arms wars, holy pallies all with 30k base health in 2-3 globals.... all before coming out of the initial stun.... with nothing but mutilate spam. No cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by asonimie

Now you're starting to see the light! :)

And gib me with what? I'm immune to melee for 15 seconds and I can rape any dangerous spellcaster in 2 seconds. Not exaggerating... 2 seconds of fully MS'd, mind poisoned, stunned death.

I can't promise anything, but I'm usually pretty accurate with me theory crafting... and the average match will probably go something like this:

4x Sap <trinketed>
Immediate 4-way Blind for full duration
Insta rape the shaman, warlock, non-frost mage, or druid.
FanOfKnives which puts MS, Snare, and Mind numbing on every target in 10 yards thats right... 3 poisons on everyone(or just leave them blinded - just as fun)
Vanish and walk away... sapping them over and over to keep from rezzing... or just start on target 2 right away... why not... they'll be dead in 3 seconds unless they're wearing pve prot gear.
++Evasion
Kill remaining spellcasters / healers while I lol@melee

Any problems in the above sequence... just hit Prep - and start the whole chain of cooldowns over again.

So far... my healer hasn't had to do much has he?

By the way... I'm even more excited about the damage after frapsing some more the last 60 minutes. I've killed DKs, arms wars, holy pallies all with 30k base health in 2-3 globals.... all before coming out of the initial stun.... with nothing but mutilate spam. No cooldowns.

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Oh come on, You think in a real arena game you would get 4 saps off? They would see 4 stealth on their gladius and start popping off AOEs until shadowsight was up and then your toast. As for the rest of the theory it sounds fun, but no way in hell would you get 4 saps off at the start.

The saps are far-fetched but I my impression is that between Sprint/Evasion and SkillCloak you should be able to gib two DPS'ers before you're actually vulnerable. Your opening target is a nobrainer autokill, then all you have to do is get one more. 5v3 should be cake, especially considering you can just pop Preparation.

Hmmmmmmm.

Not that far fetched at all.

Stealthed I move at about 90-100% normal speed run speed. Depends if they group up or not, but if bunched up ya I totally could. Has a 10 yard range... plus I can COS while stealthed if need be. If spread out... even better. Gib the guy out of range of heals.

Uploading the HD video now.

I was totally thinking of /cast [target=arena1] sap lol

You wont get more then 2-3 off but its prolly worth the shot haha.

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Originally Posted by asonimie

The fellow top rated ele boxers and I will agree, that if we have trouble dropping a target with an instant 65-70k spell damage burst(not mitigated by armor) because enemy healers are so reactive and quick.... what makes us think we could drop a target from melee range with a max burst/second of maybe ~30k(resilience AND armor mitigated) ?? Exactly.

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Paladin burst isn't all that great anymore either, yet that one guy is rated 2200. They've got no MS. Most of the paladin holy damage has been changed to physical. So, how's he doing it?

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Originally Posted by remanz

6 seconds CD interrupt, and constant purging, those are the things that make enhancement kill healers. Without them, I don't think enhance can kill healers. So asonimie's testing is pretty accruate. In 5 v 5 arena, no way you interrupt the healer's heal if you are not on that healer. You need the burst or healing debuff to kill. I am sure he can kill the single tree druid quicker, if he rotate his interrupt and purge. But that's not realistic in an arena 5 v 5 situation.

Ret paladins has no interrupt, no healing debuff. So obviously it has higher burst. Especially when you open those wings after bubble, not to mention you have stun to keep your target there. Also I think the strength of paladins is the defense. The instant heal + hots x 4 really = a holy paladin currently (not sure after the nerf). So in 5 v 5, you basically have 5 dps and 1 holy paladin healing.

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How is Kromtor or whatever his name is at 2200 if you can't interrupt multiple healers? You say you need burst or healing debuff, neither have a healing debuff, so paladin burst is that much higher than enhancement? Hard to believe that. Especially when enhance can purge off defenses. If they're not on par, they aren't far off, especially with the wolves.

Yah, and paladin can't pop wings after bubble. I doubt Kromtor is popping wings until the fights over and there's only one stubborn enemy left. He's mentioned using bubble often to stiffle cc so he can keep the pressure on, so pretty much none of his matches are being won by popping wings at all.

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Originally Posted by remanz

6 seconds CD interrupt, and constant purging, those are the things that make enhancement kill healers. Without them, I don't think enhance can kill healers. So asonimie's testing is pretty accruate. In 5 v 5 arena, no way you interrupt the healer's heal if you are not on that healer. You need the burst or healing debuff to kill. I am sure he can kill the single tree druid quicker, if he rotate his interrupt and purge. But that's not realistic in an arena 5 v 5 situation.

Ret paladins has no interrupt, no healing debuff. So obviously it has higher burst. Especially when you open those wings after bubble, not to mention you have stun to keep your target there. Also I think the strength of paladins is the defense. The instant heal + hots x 4 really = a holy paladin currently (not sure after the nerf). So in 5 v 5, you basically have 5 dps and 1 holy paladin healing.

About rogues, I see it working with all CDs intact. What happen after you blow your CDs and kill 1 target. Plus as far as burst go, it seems only combat spec can deal high burst. But the survival is kinda low for them.

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Repentence, Hammer of Justice, Arcane Torrent, Seal of Justice are all ways to interrupt spells. Once a targeted is judged justice, hes only 100% run speed. Where the ret paladin is 115%. Rogues are rediculous DPS, so you prolly could blow cd's kill one and another, vanish prep and do it again.

there's something very "meh" about enhancement shaman. their burst comes from instant casts which take 5 stacks of maelstrom which takes too long to build up. i'd rather play 4 prot and stack up seal of corruption for better burst (I'm thinking about this).

As for rogues - they are viable. People shouldn't laugh at them. Though I would urgh asonimie to think out of the pvp box a little and do a different build than the typical mutilate spec. an opener followed by killing spree x4 could be phenominal and if you spam autointeract at the right rate it makes you circle your opponents allowing you to get backstabs off. or go shadowstep for more reliable ambush openings

My solo toon is a rogue.
I'm combat in PvE.
I'm Mutilate/Prep in PvP.

My PvP gear blows, compared to what you're testing with.

While I have cooldowns (Blind, Cloak, Cold Blood, Dismantle, Evasion, Sprint, Vanish... and Prep for almost all of those again), I am very much OP in random BG's... Mix of full Ulduar 25 PvE and some assorted PvP/Honor gear.

Sprint + Evasion rocks.
Cold Blood + Mutilate is insane - 2 automatic Crits.
Dismantle makes melee gimps.
Vanish is unreliable, but with a /Stopattack, /Cloak, /Vanish macro, its half decent.
Blind is fun, but allies almost always break it fast... not if you play everyone.

When my rogue is stunned, I have no active defenses.
All my defenses are basically dodge based.
I'm very hard to hit when in control of my toon, and am a gimp when stunned.

Boxing will be a bit different, of course...
But that's my limited 1x boxing PvP BG experience.

I'm very interested to see these Rogue videos.

I guess what I see is trading healing and better passive defense for significantly better burst and CD-based defense in the Paladin vs Rogue situation.

Probably be hard to do instances with 4x Rogues :/

Ya enhancement burst is nonexistant. Windfury is it... and can't be relied on.

Thanks kromtor! BTW I did play with killing spree as I stated above somewhere, but its extremely situational. There cant be any other targets within 10 yards else it gets split. When it works, the target dies in 1 second no matter who they are. But... mutilate spec is much more reliable constant burst instead of waiting on cooldowns.

Rogue video is up! VERY basic video. No music. Just to give you guys an idea how hard these guys burst. All targets are full relentless, 1150 resilience, and between 25,000 - 40,000 HP.

Note: Please pay attention to the targets class/HP pool. Some of the kills seem slow at 3-4 seconds... until you see its a warrior/pally with 31-40k hp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHLcZb5rmNI

Enjoy. Let me know what ya think.

Also FYI, my roommates druid healer and my 4 rogues went and did the new icecrown instances. Normal mode... but still 219 loot.

Thanks for the video. It was entertaining.

Hearing that scream like 8 times when people get melee crit is just hilarious.... that's one thing I miss now that I play casters

what scream? lol

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Originally Posted by Ogloo

what scream? lol

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the emote sound toons make when crit by melee

ah havnt played melee pvp ever, just leveling