Questions on how to support this hobby? Supporting this hobby, what do you do?

I'm getting started with my first 5-box team and already I'm looking at the costs dreading it, but I love computers and am going through with it. So, how do you support this hobby of yours?

Let me give a bit of background on myself first. I'm currently 20 years old, working out of the house, well parent's house lol. I did try and attempt college but it's not me, so I left. I'm currently a video editor for the news and advertising field. Not full blown editing, but just small things and some other computer related tasks. I've got my work computers set up (iMac, eMac, some recording gear for capturing TV shows from other states, etc) and my personal computers setup right next to it. At the rate I'm going right now though, I'll never really be able to go full blown and 10-box like some of you do here (it's a goal/dream you could say lol). I do have some talent in web dev/design and computer related things, but in this day and age you need a degree 99% of the time. Which, in my opinion is stupid. Why hire someone that would probably have less real world experience but has a piece of paper then someone who does have real world experience? I don't get that. I know for a fact, if I was hired for my skills and not a paper saying I know what I'm doing I'd do fine, but employers won't even take a look at me unless I have that piece of paper. Am I right?

So, what I'm thinking of doing is opening my own company that specilizes in web development, computer refurbishing and building, and general internet and technology solutions. How viable is web development/design nowadays? Anyone here do that for a living? I'm a member on a professional Designer forum and some of them are able to get by charging $300+/hour on some projects. Yes, they've got a LOT more skill than me, so I'm thinking I could get by charging ~100-200/hour starting out for web design and devlopment. Now for the computer refurbishing and building, you really need a store front for customers to come to, that of course costs money. Would it be viable to operate that portion out of my home until business picks up, etc? Why I'm asking this is because I really would like to enjoy myself with this hobby and of course all of this requires money. I'm not the kind of person to go around saying what I make, neither do I expect you all to announce it, but my current job, which is actually the very first job I've held is currently paying $10/hour at 20-50 hours a week. Does anyone think is an ok payrate for what I do currently (video editor for an television marketing consultant...the company who goes around telling news anchors and stations how to 'hook' the viewers, etc).

So, anyone got any advice for me?

I found a way to pay my bills/WoW costs while allowing me to save all my regular paycheck for college.

I donate blood plasma twice a week for a total of about 65 dollars.

A good friend of mine donates blood twice a week too and he gets $60; $20 for the first visit and $40 for the second. He's been doing it religiously every week for well over a year.

This is a joke right? I shouldn't of posted about this here lol.

The piece of paper isn't so important. What the piece of paper represents is. Its an indicator of your tenacity and your ability to stick with a large undertaking and see it through. Having a degree shows an employer/potential client that you've invested a fair amount of time and money in to getting certified at what you do.

A good 80% of jobs out there can be performed by a trained monkey, but when employers/clients look at potential employees/contractors, why should they hire someone with no degree when there are plenty of people with one? In the same vein, why should they pay someone with no degree the same they would pay someone with one? There are no shortage of people who can work, but what firms are really interested in are people who are devoted to what they do and aren't going to flake out or hop ship at the first sign of trouble.

Now if you don't want to go to college, that's your perogative, but you'll make less money over the course of your career if you don't. You don't have to go to a university if that's not your thing (and I'll say, 50% of what you get out of university is useless), but you should at least consider a technical college or getting several certifications.

Plenty of people on this board make a good living without a degree, several far above the average degree holder. Thing is, they aren't going to drop the magic secret to making money in your lap just because you asked for it. You mentioned professional designers who charge 300$/hour for projects, but do these people have employees, equipment, and debts to pay off? How much experience do they have, and what do their portfolios look like? Charging 300$ doesn't necesarily equate to them being paid 300$, not to mention with any such endeavor, you typically do not get the option to charge on an hourly basis and it gets done when it gets done. You're far more likely to have to forecast how many hours a project will take, and make a competitive bid on that based on what you charge. You get the project done early? You get to pocket the difference. You take more time than you thought? That comes out of your pocket.

Now if you have the drive and ambition to pull off owning your own business, more power to you. I would still highly suggest you take some classes on it, and come up with a business plan.

I was just throwing the designers out there as an example. I know they got a ton more experience than me. I never mentioned anything about not having certifications either. I have a couple. I'm just as motivated as someone with a degree, I guess I just need to find a way to show that I am which is easier said than done. I am currently working on a business plan, I expect it to be finished sometime in the next 2-3 weeks and I am considering going to a technical school. I'm looking at ITT Technical right now.

I just really wanted some advice or something. So, thank you for it.

Unless you go way overboard the hobby is really one of the cheapest hobbies you can get.

I was 5 boxing just fine on the PC I already owned (3GB memory, dual core athlon x2 2.5GHz, GeForce 8600GT). I've since upgraded a couple times but didn't have to. Aside from that, buying the WoW accounts was a bit of cost up front, but other than that, $75 a month is fairly cheap in the grand scheme of things (My cable bill alone with internet is $150 so $75 is pretty cheap).

Anyway, don't be afraid to 5 box with what you have - memory is the most important thing and its retardedly cheap right now (recently picked up 4GB of memory for $20 with free shipping).

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Originally Posted by 'bryce',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170924#post17 0924

Why hire someone that would probably have less real world experience but has a piece of paper then someone who does have real world experience? I don't get that. I know for a fact, if I was hired for my skills and not a paper saying I know what I'm doing I'd do fine, but employers won't even take a look at me unless I have that piece of paper. Am I right?

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[...] and some of them are able to get by charging $300+/hour on some projects. Yes, they've got a LOT more skill than me[...]

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I think that you've answered your own question yourself:
If you don't have a degree, you need to excel and have proven to be on par with someone that has a degree. If you are on the same level as an average person with a degree, then it's very natural that the person with the degree gets picked if there are a lot of candidates for the job. Unfortunately for you, there are a lot of web developers.


(I'm speaking out of experience; I got hired at the age of 21 - without a degree higher than highschool - as a programmer for a big development studio)
I've even been approached by several web development companies that asked if I could work for them ... and PHP/XHTML/CSS is only something I used for my personal websites.

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Originally Posted by 'bryce',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171088#post17 1088

I was just throwing the designers out there as an example. I know they got a ton more experience than me. I never mentioned anything about not having certifications either. I have a couple. I'm just as motivated as someone with a degree, I guess I just need to find a way to show that I am which is easier said than done. I am currently working on a business plan, I expect it to be finished sometime in the next 2-3 weeks and I am considering going to a technical school. I'm looking at ITT Technical right now.

I just really wanted some advice or something. So, thank you for it.

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I didn't mean to imply you didn't have any certifications. I just wasn't sure. I guess the point I was trying to make is that finding an income, whether it be through self employment or through an already established firm, is just as important if not more so than what you actually end up doing. Its a ridiculous system and it makes no sense, but "soft skills" (interviewing, how well your resume is worded, how you interface with people) are hugely important. Sadly, being motivated has little to do with finding work. Its all about presenting yourself as the best option to prospective clients/employers.

I do wish you the best of luck, though, and I don't mean to be a downer. I'm just putting things out as I see them, which may or may not be accurate. :whistling:

I can honestly say I learned little to nothing out of college, and my brain has fried to a certain level of retardation now that I'm actually working (since I do pretty much the same thing... every day...)

It makes teh moneh, tho.

Just think of it this way: The piece of paper helps. Why? Who cares. It does. If you don't have one, it's not the end of the world. But it helps.



I can't help you much when it comes to jobs or starting your own job, but I can say that multiboxing, like any hobby, is a balance of cost versus gain. If you're willing to cut out some other costs in your life you can have more room for gain. Cell phone? Dinners out? Starbucks in the morning? See if there's any extras you can trim to give you more room to save for 'boxing. There's also ways you can cut costs while 'boxing -- software setups are (generally) less expensive than hardware, or hardware 'boxing with some lower-end PCs also works (used PCs go for very cheap -- and WoW, being an older game, will run pleasantly on a computer that's seen a few years).

Just take a look at your spending and you'll find ways to balance. And if you refuse to cut out costs elsewhere, that's when the only real way to go is to find another job that pays better or gives you spending money on the side.

I have a good job so its not much of an issue, but when budgeting it comes down to cutting unnecessary costs. Eating out and Entertainment are by far my biggest sink holes for cash. Course i'm single, live alone, and lazy about cooking... Basic budgeting is a life time skill so learn it. Some of my biggest month to month savings was getting rid of cable tv ($120/month). I can watch anything I want online now a days. Using Netflix. $15 a month vs about $50 that I was spending on movie rentals, and going to the movies. Thoes two things ammounted to about $150 a month swing right there. Now if I could cut out the fast food, that would prolly be a good $300 a month swing.

WoW is a cheap hobby on a month to month cost. Smokers prolly spend more each month than we do. Also if you play say 2 hours a day average. and shelling out $50 for internet and $75 for wow sub's. That comes to about $2 an hour and change for your entertainment. I remember 10 years ago when I was an EQ addict and I did the math and included the game costs, internet, sub fees, etc it came to like 30cents an hour entertainment.

I'm a housewife, so we're a 1-income family. My husband makes decent enough money, but I wouldn't say we're exceptionally well off or anything. We're comfortable. ;)

When it comes to being able to afford my multi-boxing, it's really a no-brainer for us. It's our form of entertainment. We don't go out because we're on a 3rd shift schedual...nothing's open when we're up to do stuff. We quit smoking and we're dieting {I swear we save $300 a month in milk, coffee and smokes alone!}. And it solves our problem of being more hardcore than most of our friends, but too old to deal with hardcore guild crap.

As far as your own business, keep in mind the costs that come with that. You'll probably need to be licensed for the computer bits, and you may not be allowed to run a business like that out of your home. I don't know specifics, I just know my parents had a million headaches starting up their antique sales business.

Starbuck_Jones, we got rid of cable, too. There is absolutly nothing on that justifies $120 a month or whatever. Whatever we want to watch, we buy or can watch online.

I got in early on some wireless IPOs, the stuff just skyrocketed from there. How's your portfolio?

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Originally Posted by 'bryce',index.php?page=Thread&postID=170924#post17 0924

So, anyone got any advice for me?

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The only advice I can give is advice that is very obvious, but which many people do not follow-- do not get in over your head. It's that simple. It is not always easy, but if you're willing to bite the bullet from time to time and not take risks that are clearly bad (something I have done from time to time >.< ) you can keep your finances manageable. It's about compromise and being level-headed (and not emotional) when considering how to spend your money. Or at least, that is my perspective on it from my own experiences.

I work in IT and make a good salary. I have debt, but it's very manageable and I've never gotten into more debt than I can comfortably pay. What's more, between my 401K (in spite of the recent beating it has taken) and a savings account where I always dump my tax refund checks (small as they are), I am in a position where if I happened to lose my job I could pay off my debt completely and have enough cash on hand to pay my bills for 6-12 months. Aside from that I have cut my debt by about 1/3rd in the last few months, and will have another 1/3rd down before this year is out. I may be completely debt-free by early 2010.

It took me many years (longer than it should have, to be honest) to focus on making sure that I was secure financially. But because I was always responsible enough to keep from doing anything that would have really hurt me, once I decided to focus on that I was able to do it within around a year-and-a-half. And now I'm very close to being able to just pile on the cash savings and be much more than just financially secure, while still being able to splurge from time to time. It's something I am really looking forward to, assuming that things remain as they are for the next year or two.

This is what makes me chuckle when someone on the WoW forums tries to point and laugh at a person who "pays $75 a month for a video game." If I can see my plan through, then in about 18 months I'll be able to pay $750 a month for video games if I want. Or $1,500. $75 a month? Heh...

Back in the early 90's I'd donate plasma twice a week. Back then it was for beer money, ends up that if you drink enough and often enough your liver will create some enzymes that exclude you from donating plasma...

It was a sad day for me.

I set investment strategy for insurance companies (actuary) and make a good living. However, I recognize that the multiboxing hobby is multiples the cost of a regular WoW hobby. While WoW is one of the cheapest forms of entertainment ($/hour) multiboxing does start to get more expensive (especially with new hardware). However, if it's a choice between going to bars and drinking or playing WoW, then even multiboxing is cheaper (not necessarily better and possibly much less fun if you don't have a significant other or girlfriend/boyfriend).

I also agree with everything Bigfish said. College is about 80% worthless, and most jobs are mind numbing, but that's the world we live in. You may not learn much in college, it probably won't have much to do with your actual career, but on average that piece of paper is well worth the time & money. Can you make millions w/o a degree? Absolutely. I'd probably say the correlation with degree vs high net is lower than compared with who you know, initiative, and risk tolerance. However, if you're not one of those who is sure they're going to take over the world then college is a valuable investment. I think you'll find many things in life are about going through the motions and doing what society demands, regardless of how little value it actually produces. You can fight against it and make your path more difficult, or you can choose to go with it and spend your energy/time doing things you enjoy. Many people take the former and many take the latter.

Edit: oooh, my 150th post and a second star... must be a good one or full of total crap!

When I started working in IT, circa 1993, everyone in the industry was down on going to college for computers. The stuff they taught was obsolete two years before they could get a program going. (OSI model ftw!) So I went the cert route. A+, Net+, CNA, MCP (x3), MCSE. I had more initials than a Scrabble game. Somewhere around 2002 everyone started wanting the degree :/ So I went to plan B and married a dentist.

I support it because my life is something like:
Rent is 450 a month(900 but I have a housemate)
I pay 750 a month as an allotment.
Gas, electric, water, cable internet, sewer and trash is another couple hundred bucks.
I can still afford my $75 a month, but I seem to always end up running behind on some bill or other because ... bills are like Righteous Defense. You go to group with someone other than your shammies, and you forget to turn it on, and it doesn't matter until you get to that first boss fight and then you're OOM (because you forgot to put on BoSanct too) and are watching your healer crumple to the ground. I hate that, but I still can't find someone else to blame it on when I forget to rebuff or pay a bill.
Solely because of that, I feel poor even though I make pretty good jack working for the government. No degree here either. I have about 150 college credits, but never seem to get around to paying someone to turn those into a degree either. I'm sick of being a 33-year-old unmarried High School Graduate.
I was sick of it back at age 25, too.

Go ahead YOUNG MAN, be like me!
Oh as for my job, I instruct people in the armed forces how to do stuff. The reason I have the high paying job with my lack of credentials is because of 6 years experience doing the job that I now teach, while I was in the Army.

FYI, your life earnings over the course of your life statistically double with a Bachelor's degree, triple with a Masters, and quadruple with a Doctorate. Has nothing to do with the actual piece of paper, but the factors that got you there. Part of it is the "need money to make money" aspect of life, part of it is your drive and determination, part of it is your intellect, part of it is the prestige that goes with the piece of paper.

That's not to say you won't see extremes. You can get super rich high school graduates, or super poor doctorate holders, but as far as where the bell curve sits, you see those numbers.

I work full time and at 20, I make more than my mum who has a PhD, so those statistics mean squat to me. I have been to Uni for a bit as well and continue to return there every once in a while for some education when I feel like it. But from my life experience I have a general rule...

Once you get into uni/college, you high school score doesn't matter. Once you get a job/experience, your Uni score doesn't matter.

These days, experience will trump a piece of paper. From what I've seen working on mine sites, you don't even need a degree to do an Engineer's job

Experience will triumph over DOING a job, typically, but good luck GETTING a job without a degree or a super fat resume. Young guys getting started have to 1) know someone (more important than a degree for getting a job) or 2) have a piece of paper :/

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=172636#po st172636

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Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=172629#post 172629

FYI, your life earnings over the course of your life statistically double with a Bachelor's degree, triple with a Masters, and quadruple with a Doctorate. Has nothing to do with the actual piece of paper, but the factors that got you there. Part of it is the "need money to make money" aspect of life, part of it is your drive and determination, part of it is your intellect, part of it is the prestige that goes with the piece of paper.

That's not to say you won't see extremes. You can get super rich high school graduates, or super poor doctorate holders, but as far as where the bell curve sits, you see those numbers.

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I've seen some info that contradicts this lately....

So many recent years employers have demanded college educations but paid mediocer salaries in return - now the people holding the paper are demand premium salaries (while at the same time having zero real world experience), so employers are starting to care less about paper and more about previous experience.

I've worked with college educated people in the past that couldn't' wipe thier own asses, let alone do the job they were hired for.

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I've seen the same. I've actually seen quite a few comparisons. Now of course some of this only holds up depending on what you are capable of doing without a degree. However think of it this way... two 18 year olds just graduated high school. Teenager one goes to college. He turns 22 and graduates with a bachelor degree - total earned so far - $0 (of course he might have had some jobs throughout but most likely just to pay for some food etc). At 22, with a bachelor degree but no practical experience, he goes and finds a job that doesn't require any experience at a company where he can work his way up - it pays $36k a year. By the time he is 26, he is now making $55k a year. At 30 he finally gets his big break into upper management and is making $100k/year. It can go beyond this of course, but this is also a good scenario, a lot of people with a bachelor degree may never even see $55k a year.

Teenager number two does not go to college. At 18 he gets a job in a helpdesk making $35k a year. At 22 he is now a full time system admin making $50k a year. At 26 hes a Sr. admin making $75k a year, and at 30 he has now been making $95k a year for a couple years.

By 30, teenager 1 with a bachelor degree has made $364k total and is now making $100k/year. However, he had to pay back $50k in student loans so his total made is ~$314k.

By 30, teenager 2 without a bachelor degree has made $680k. He is also now making $95k/year.

By the time both people retire, theres a decent chance they'll have made the same amount or even that the teenager that didn't go to college made more.

Of course this is one example and the variables can all be wildly different depending on the scenario. Just want to show that having a degree isn't always going to mean you will make more money over the course of your life. I will also say that IT is really the one major field (aside from entrepreneurship) where this can happen and happens a lot. Most fields, having the 4 year degree will earn you more over the course of your life.

I don't have a bachelor degree (or any college degree), but I am a firm believer in most people getting one. Sometimes though I wonder if it is worth it. I have a cousin who is 23 that graduated with a bachelor degree last year and hes making $33k right now, 1 year after graduating with a degree. He will move up eventually but hes not going to be at the $100k mark any time in the next 10 years if ever.

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Originally Posted by 'Coltimar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=173050#pos t173050

Experience will triumph over DOING a job, typically, but good luck GETTING a job without a degree or a super fat resume. Young guys getting started have to 1) know someone (more important than a degree for getting a job) or 2) have a piece of paper :/

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Again, it depends on what field you're in. Also, someone with no degree and no experience, and someone WITH a degree but no experience - both are going to have a terrible time finding anything other than a very low level job, especially in this economy. Yeah having the degree will help a little bit but neither person is going to jump into a super high paying job (unless their degree is a med degree or something :D )

Not contradicting the fact that a degree is good to have (it is) but, especially in the case of something like IT, someone with a 4 year degree and someone with no degree will have a relatively equal chance to get a starting position in their field that pays approximately the same. The difference is the person with the degree can eventually move into mid-upper management if they choose to (not everyone wants to) :)

I'd argue your numbers are relatively skewed Hachoo, but I totally understand your point and agree, to an extent. But thus far, it seems most of the "degree means squat" arguments rely on an IT related example (I'm not IT, I don't know what the difference between a degree is or isn't in that field).

Ok, here:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

Its a bit dated, but it addresses the point I'm trying to make. Comparing the top and bottom outliers of any given sample will give innacurate impressions. If you think you're an outlier, feel free to disregard what anyone tells you about your earning potential, but on a general basis, higher education pays off.

Edit: More up to date information: http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm

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Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=173117#post 173117

I'd argue your numbers are relatively skewed Hachoo, but I totally understand your point and agree, to an extent. But thus far, it seems most of the "degree means squat" arguments rely on an IT related example (I'm not IT, I don't know what the difference between a degree is or isn't in that field).

Ok, here:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf

Its a bit dated, but it addresses the point I'm trying to make. Comparing the top and bottom outliers of any given sample will give innacurate impressions. If you think you're an outlier, feel free to disregard what anyone tells you about your earning potential, but on a general basis, higher education pays off.

Edit: More up to date information: http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm

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Oh I agree the numbers can be (and probably are) way off. Its just really hard to get numbers that mean something without taking a huge survey. So I just used myself as example of teen2 and one of my RL friends as an example of teen1 since that was the only example I had :)

55k is near welfare for this area (and areas like New York). 55k is pretty nice for South Dakota.

I second Fursphere's recomendation on joining the military for at least 4 years. If you have military experience on your resume people really respect that, and I believe will give you an edge. People out of the military are generally more discplined, get shit done, and don't complain. I've worked in an office with a large amount of navy/airforce/marines and they were all very good workers and went on to get good jobs as contractors.

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Originally Posted by 'Hachoo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171102#post1 71102

Unless you go way overboard the hobby is really one of the cheapest hobbies you can get.

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This is the truth. I used to frequently race my cars at the track, and I'd easily spend $500 a month just in 116 octane gas.. NOT including replacing worn/broken/upgraded parts. Now I just make the occasional trip to the track and I'm saving a ton of cash.

I also enjoy scuba diving. Gas for the boat is easily $20-30 per person on a day's dive. Provided food/gift to the boat owner or boat rental is extra expense. Air tank refills aren't too expensive, but the gear is relatively expensive.

I easily spend more than $75/mo target shooting. Ammunition is not cheap. $10-12 is 20 rounds for my AR-15. $15 for 50 rounds of .40SW for my Glock. My M1 Garand's .30-06 isn't cheap either. Unless you're buying Russian surplus for a semi-auto AK47, you're spending a lot of money for an hour at the range. (No, you're not making 40 rounds last an hour. More like 200+.)

$75/mo for 5-boxing is one of the cheapest hobbies out there. Ever try oil painting? A black canvas is easily $30-50, and oil paints are $5-10 per color. Yes, you can mix, but you're still going to be using a lot of paint. I was going nuts over the art shop bills when my ex-gf was asking for cash to support her hobby.

I'm a software engineer for military simulations. Stay in school kids. Study in high school. Pick a major you ENJOY in college, and work harder in the books than you did in high school. Do well in school to prove to an employer that you deserve a shot at a good starting job. Work hard to prove you deserve to be promoted at the job for higher salary. If you've proven you're in high demand, you can basically name your salary. Play equally as hard as you work.. and I'm not talking about WoW.

I didn't follow my above advice, but I WISH I DID. I cruised through high school since it was easy. I picked a major for the idea of the med-school career (surgeon) instead of what would I be happy with if I didn't go to med school (microbiology). I discovered I hated looking through microscopes 3 years into college. I changed majors to something I enjoyed more (Software Engineering/Computer Science). I was in college for 8 years straight and was burnt out at the 5th year. I worked my way through, was likeable enough in an interview even though my overall 8 year GPA wasn't stellar.

I busted my ass at work since day one to get to where I am today. I only wish my college entrance advisor asked me the proper question - "What major would you pick for fun, if you weren't planning on med-school?" I would have started with computer science from the beginning, as I taught myself computer programming the first 3 years while tutoring actual Comp. Sci. majors for beer money.

To put it bluntly, don't fuck up. It's not easy getting a 2nd chance at college - everything is on a permanent record, and future interviewers WILL look at it. I look back and think that a good combination of luck and personality helped me overcome my lack of discipline in college to land a fantastic job out of school, but if I were to have a shot again, I wouldn't take that risk. I always had no doubt in my ability and knew I'd be valued once I started work.. I just looked at college as "doing my time" until I graduated. That's not the right mindset.. and if things worked just a little differently, I could have really regretted it.

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171819#po st171819

In high school (1997, last year for me) I predicted this happening.

Then I sat back and watch the IT industry hire complete retards WITH degrees and / or Certs (not saying everyone is), and now its finally coming around.

A piece of paper is for wiping your back side. Real world experience and know-how are where its at. At least, this has been working for me and my friends for some time now.

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I had something of a front-row seat for this, I had just been promoted to IT Manager at my workplace (they pretty much created the department at that time), and a friend of mine was just heading into the job market fresh off of time spent in one of those fly-by-night technical colleges. He turned out alright, he was smart, hard-working, and ambitious but not the type to leap into a pool before checking for water. I heard about guys who were just starting out and making three or four times my salary (and spending it as fast as it hit their pockets). I heard about recruiters walking right into offices and walking out with people who they had made ridiculous offers to.

And then I got to hear about how those guys were pretty much finished when the market imploded. Their jobs went away, the high salaries went away, the perks went away... the mortgages for their summer homes didn't go away, nor did the debt on their fancy cars, or their credit cards, or the loans... nasty stuff. I was glad that I didn't decide to make the jump at that time, I was pretty set where I was (and where I still am... I will have been here 20 years as of September). And my job, salary, and perks are still here, too.

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Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171069#post 171069

A good 80% of jobs out there can be performed by a trained monkey, but when employers/clients look at potential employees/contractors, why should they hire someone with no degree when there are plenty of people with one? In the same vein, why should they pay someone with no degree the same they would pay someone with one? There are no shortage of people who can work, but what firms are really interested in are people who are devoted to what they do and aren't going to flake out or hop ship at the first sign of trouble.

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I don't have a degree and I make over $30k more than my wife who does have a degree.

That being said.. If I had additional money..I'd go back and finish my degree. And I don't think I would get any benefit at all from doing it other than being able to say I had one.

I just go and sell a cow. :D

Seriously, I own a small cattle ranch, so Multi-boxing wow is just how I relax at the end of the day.

Stephen

I'm selling my kidney on Ebay.

Seriously, I'm sorta in a do-it-all function within a few family companies. They're not too big, fairly small business', so hard work. But hard work pays off. :P

If you need money and can't find a job... join the Army. Accomodation, food, friendship, pay, life experiences, physical fitness, they have it all.

The Army is my back up plan if I can't become a fireman when I quit this job later this year.

And around this area, big mining companies (and other big paying small companies) have stopped hiring people with a piece of paper fresh out of uni. They are hiring experienced people in similar jobs. Not that job specifically, but similar.

One of the reasons people go to university (UK) and college (?US) is not just to get the piece of paper. It's also to meet up with like minded people and build a network so that later in life you've got a helping hand.

This is why prestige universities/colleges are prestigious; not necessarily because the actual education is better but because you meet the right sort of people to help you out later in life. Knowing the right sort of people is what can double/triple/quadruple your lifetime income, you only need one lucky break and luck comes to those who make it.

A piece of paper is not gauranteed to increase your income, but statistically people who have those pieces of paper tend to earn more than people without.

That said, it's far from impossible to make money without any eduction whatsoever.

The hard part is making your hobby into your job. (ie. having lotta fun while making money. :P )

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Originally Posted by 'Tonuss',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171672#post1 71672

This is what makes me chuckle when someone on the WoW forums tries to point and laugh at a person who "pays $75 a month for a video game."

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Heh, it seems a common insult along with "get a life". I usually respond that I feel very sorry if $75\month means something for them and that I definitely do NOT want to have such life where I can't afford $75 for a hobby.

One extremely easy way for me to tell if someone is still living with their mommy or not is when they tell me $75 is a lot and I respond "Um, $75 is hardly anything for a hobby. I pay $135/mo on cable/internet".

Then, they respond "WTF who the hell spends $135/mo on cable and internet?"

Er... how about almost everyone? Unless you have basic cable with the crappy channels, but the bottom line is if you don't even know about cable or satellite packages and how much it can possibly cost you probably still live with your mommy and she probably pays all of the bills.

My life experience is..

After high school i went 2 years on a tech school teaching me to become a normal mechanic, took a break after 2 years since i was dead tired.. The work was at a fish factory were i earned about $15 each hour and the job was horrible but i liked the people and we had lots of parties together (tons of swedish girls) Worked about 400 hours more then a normal job(aka 2100 in total) Took me about a year to get some kind of "upgrade" wich made the job alot more enjoyable but it still was crap and getting pissed on by random bosses in a bad mood happened from time to time.

But i was detirmened to finsih the last year and get alot more electrical stuff since that means you can be used everywere and to everything!

Had to take 1.5 years as a apprentice and earn 60% wich was $15 (same as my old wage) but when i worked overtime im paid 100% instead of 50%. Aka if i bothered to work 6-7 hours on a saturday were i started WHEN i wanted and did WHAT i wanted i suddenly earned $58 each hour.The down side is that i have to work 1 week early 6-14 and one week late 15-23.. (The day is one hour shorter on fridays thought)

Now im done and my normaly hour pay is $29 wich is enough for me since i still live home with my mother (sad yes) 6 months ago i was offered to join the fire phone thing (incase of a fire alarm i meet up and is there to inform the fire department of sudden changes, gas bottles etc) This is each 5th week and the requirment is to be sober and less then 30 min away. $720 for one week EXTRA on my normal pay.

With 3 years of school in total (since i didnt work as a mechanic on the fish factory) the difference is.

My last year on the fish factory i earned a total of $40 700 spread on around 2100 hours..

2008 in my new job i earned $68 570 spread on around 1700 hours.

My old job was quite physical and i was very tired after a worked day (always worked 06:00-15:30) It was very noicy and you got yelled at by some random asshole bosses. I couldnt do shit without taking a shower after work since the smell wasnt that great. Every morning was hard since that i didnt enjoy going to work!

Now there is barley any physical work left and i work 1.5 hours less.. I dont wake up and think to myself "YES WORK" but if i stay home a whole day even wow tends to become boring! The key certainly to not do the same stuff each day!

My plan however is to start on a engineer degree in september wich is over 4 years.. I guess i will go up about $14 000 - $20 000 but i dont realy care about the money as long as i like the job and its not underpaid of course.

$68 570 might sound like alot for a normal job but DO take in consideration that i pay 45% tax since i dont have a big load or kids.. Since im from Norway everything costs waaaay more then in other countries. I do however get a scholarship when i head back to school,free health care and dont one of thoose crazy health insurances you need in the states.

When i go out and drink i use atleast $140 and i do it around 4 times each month so $75 on multiboxing isnt to bad. :)