Can we have this thread locked? I really don't want to have to roll another team...
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Can we have this thread locked? I really don't want to have to roll another team...
@Brothelmeister:
This thread wasn't originally about the 4 DK's viability compared to 4 Rets or any other comp--Just an explanation of how and why it's a dominating team. I think it's pretty well on track to be honest :)
To refute one or two of your points though, I have to say that the pressure this team puts out is different than any other's for one big reason: Necrotic Strike. This ability is going to change the world for boxers.
@Boylston:
Haha you scared me for a minute. The upside is this team starts at 55 and levels like a pro. I promise :)
@brothelmeister
I never wanted to join the 4x ret/dk discussion as I have not played that team at any decent level, but it seems to me (ever since patch day) that a geared ret pally was still very mobile and doing decent damage vs my shaman when i play him single (full wrath except shoulders). It was rather my survivability that was increased. So I can imagine if I was to have a 4 ret + dk team, to stick to it. On a sidenote: I sometimes have the feeling that some boxers ditch a class/team whenever they can't oneshot an opponent.
Reducing the 4x dk + healer team to a spamming HB gimmick is something that I don't really like, and definitely not the way I like to play. There are so many more features that this team offers, that you can use it for a multitude of playstyles (lockouts, cc's, ...). And how likely is it actually that you meet a shitload of enemies together within range? That is for me def. not the majority of the fights in BG's. On the other hand, saying that a frost dk his single target output is not that high ... I can't judge about lvl 81+, but everything so far up till lvl 80 has given me very awesome single target damage (which obviously requires something else than spamming hb). That the range on single target is limited isn't really an issue with 4x deathgrip. The reason I actually switched from unholy (still a decent choice) to frost was just for the single target output + the level of control I have over the enemy. It was rather by accident that I discovered the insane aoe power of HB.
(i havent read all 8 pages)
Just wondering what race(Horde and Ally) would you pick if you were starting a new DK team at the start of Cata? My 5 DKs are all lvl 60 NE. Starting over wouldnt be a big loss.
It'll take like 2 hours to get a team from 55 to 60 :) Go Human imo~ if you're Alliance. Horde BE or UD have best racials for this team (imo~).
Edit:
And I'm still interested in the healing debate.
I think you might be underselling DK burst. 12 HB's will kill people. Sure it will take 2s, but the fact it is hitting everyone in a 10 yard radius makes it difficult to heal everyone. Frost strike hits very hard as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrothelMeister
Additionally, after 3 HB's you will have enough runic power for 1 or 2 death coil barrages which is extremely helpful for finishing off someone just out of melee reach.
Neither team will have difficulty killing people in terms of raw DPS output, however DK's have more control which allows them to be in the position to actually put that DPS into effect on a more consistent basis.
Horde the clear choice is BE.Quote:
Originally Posted by cmeche
Ally human or worgen probably.
This is if you are absolutely set on min maxing.
The human trinket racial is really good and Worgen(And goblins) just have stupidly strong racials period)
BE's have arcane torrent and grip + arcane torrent spells insta-doom for any caster you suck in and you don't even need to use mind freeze to accomplish this. When I enter large fights, just running into as many casters as possible and cycling your arcane torrents works wonders for cutting healing or ranged magic DPS down.
I look at it, like this...
A team has to be able to win against at least equal sized groups consistently. And if you can take out larger groups, that's a good sign.
Imagine the other faction has control of the Blacksmith, but sent 10+ people there to take it. You can hit BS with your team, and have a chance because of the AoE nature of Howling Blast. Even if you're going to die 9 times in 10, you'll put up decent pressure doing it. Meanwhile your team has 10 people elsewhere to take bases from 5 defenders.
When you go against masses of players, your Frost Runes are a priority. Every two Frost Strikes, is also a 90% chance of another Frost Rune. You might go Howling Blast, Howling Blast, Frost Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast, Blood Tap, Howling Blast... and then focus on a healer with Necrotic Strikes as the Frost Runes recharge.
When there aren't a lot of targets in one place, as a boxer we should destroy our opposition.
And most likely we will, most of the time.
But let's say you go to the Gold Mine, and they happen to have three healers there. That's a lot of healing output on whoever we focus fire.
Necrotic Strike, makes us far more likely to down a target in this situation than another team with similar or possibly even superior DPS. Burst is the only chance for most other teams in this situation; drop someone in a single GCD. Necrotic Strike, gets a very good chance of downing one of the targets despite the other two healers doing everything they can to keep that target up.
So good tools for both masses of opponents and for focusing on any given single target.
It might be worthwhile to build two castsequence (or DPS Mapped Keys). And have a toggle between them.
The first prioritizes Howling Strikes, exactly as shown in the Manifesto video. The second prioritizes Necrotic Strikes, in a similar fashion. And then have a toggle which switches the mode from one to the other.
Going with the priority system from the Manifesto video, possibly something like this:
Code:Press:
Do Mapped Key - Melee IWT
Do Mapped Key A - Howling Blast (Keybind 1)
Do Mapped Key B - Necrotic Strike (Keybind 1)
Release:
Do Mapped Key C - Howling Blast (Keybind 2)
Do Mapped Key D - Howling Blast (Keybind 3)
Do Mapped Key E - Howling Blast (Keybind 4)
Do Mapped Key F - Necrotic Strike (Keybind 2)
Do Mapped Key G - Necrotic Strike (Keybind 3)
Do Mapped Key H - Necrotic Strike (Keybind 4)
Do Mapped Key I - Frost Strike (Keybind 1)
Do Mapped Key J - Frost Strike (Keybind 2)
Do Mapped Key K - Necrotic Strike (Keybind 2)
Do Mapped Key L - Necrotic Strike (Keybind 3)
Do Mapped Key M - Howling Blast (Keybind 2)
Do Mapped Key N - Howling Blast (Keybind 3)
Do Mapped Key O - Blood Strike (Keybind 1)
And then the toggle:
Step 1
- Enables Mapped Keys A, C, D, E, K, L.
- Disables Mapped Keys B, F, G, H, M, N.
Step 2
- Does the reverse.
As far as healers go... I would personally prefer all members of the same race.
As close to the same appearance as possible, which admittedly is a large boost for the Paladin camp.
Basically, so the opposition has a harder time focusing on the healer.
Additionally, when you switch to single target DPS hungering cold comes into play which is an aoe incapacitate.
All i see here is "OMG WINGS + HAMMER = WIN!"Quote:
Originally Posted by BrothelMeister
Burst is better for boxers as you say.... so lets do a comparison of a basic 100 attack sequence shal we?
Rets
Crusader strike - 115% base - after all is said and done it is 150% weapon damage 4.5 second cooldown (with sanctity + judgement haste + dk haste looking at about a 3.2 min cooldown)
Holy Wrath - decently large mana cost, small damage output especially against multiple opponents, 15 second cooldown
Exorcism - Only really usable when you have art of war otherwise it eats too much mana
Judgement - 8 second cooldown, the damage is laughable at best now.
Hammer of wrath - only usable while wings are up, or when target is below 25% life
Divine storm - shared cooldown with crusader strike, does 80% weapon damage (when bursting this is useless really, and limits your holy power generation unless you are lucky)
Inquisition - Increases holy damage by 30% requires holy power, lasts 30 seconds with max holy power... only applies to judgement damage, exorcism and holy wrath unless you have wings up.
Templar's verdict - Laughable damage and is not affected by inquisition (its a melee attack, not a holy attack) that does 235% weapon damage at max, and <100% for holy power less than that.
The rotation even in pvp requires 3 holy power to be used for inquisition every 30 ish seconds. 40% chance for it to give you 1 holy power back, judge exo and holy all have a 40% chance as well and hammer of wrath.
So out of 100 non templars verdict attacks you get the following (if you are not healing)
Judge (8 seconds)
Crusader strike (3.2 seconds)
Holy wrath (15 second cooldown)
Cusader strike (3.2 seconds)
Judgement (8 seconds)
Crusader strike x 2
Holy Wrath
Judgement
Crusader Strike
Assuming that rotation or similar is repeated to 100 total attacks you get approximately 70 holy power which is equal to 23x either templars verdict or inquisition.
Which puts this at a total of 123 attacks
As of 4.0.3a i am critting for about 11-13k with pvp gear on my ret paladin on training dummy with templars verdict
Deathknight
Each howling blast gives approximately 10 runic power per rune used other than frost which are 20. Meaning every set of runes used you gain 80 runic power. This does not include random procs from the spec.
Howling Blast x 2
Necrotic strike
Blood Strike (death rune)
Necrotic Strike
Blood Strike (death rune)
80 runic power dump = 2.5 frost strikes (im going to round up here to 3 to incorperate procs from spec)
3x frost strike
Howling Blast x 4
Necrotic strike x 2
100 runic power dump (going to up this to 120 because the proc is very high)
4x frost strike
So each basic burst or normal rotation includes
6 howling blasts
4 necrotic strikes
2 blood strikes
7 frost strikes
So you get this ~6.5 times to equal to the attacks (including usage of templars verdict/inquisition)
39x howling blast
26x necrotic strike
13x blood strikes
45.5 frost strikes
This means that for a deathknight in equal attacks... he gets his 100+% weapon damage over 70 times, 39x an attack that is equal to the damage of templars verdict (on a training dummy and some reforging it crits for 12k for me) and 13x attacks that are 80% weapon damage + 680 (at 85) and an extra 10% of that total damage for having frost fever on the target... so every attack is doing over 100% weapon damage.
Frost strike hits harder than crusader strike and is pure frost damage, and you can use it just as often because of the freaking cooldown on crusader strike. In 3.2 seconds you can easily get 32 runic power if you are attacking a target... hell you get 20 if you do two non frost attacks...
BtW in the amount of time the paladin throws out the stated amount of abilities (enough for 23 tv) you get 40% of 45 frost strikes as more attacks which equals even more frost strikes...
How is there even a comparison? I mean does the fact that you get to burst someone down every 2 mins with wings really make up for that?
I dont think there is a one best healer for this team. I think all 3 dicussed heavily so far are veyr strong in different ways and it depends on how you want to play the team. It sounds like half of the people taking up the challenge are doing to play from the DK PoV. The other half are interested in driving from the healer, with a single key launches the priority system and using priority and RR to throw in Mind Freeze/Death Grips/Pillar of Frost etc.
I was going to make my whole team Engineers as my focus will be Battlegrounds and rated Battlegrounds with a small dabble in Arena.
I'd love to see some fraps of PvP from Mosq driving his Paladin. I'd love to see th person who is using their Priest and their PvP.
For me thought at least for now this team is a pure PvP and secondary team so reputation/achievments etc are not a huge dealio.
I also agree maybe the thread is a little too excited about HB and ignoring the other amazing features of the Frost DK.
Has anyone considered going DW for PVP and not using a huge 2H considering most strikes (sadly not nectrotic strike) all hit with both weapons?
I played around some random dungeons with a terribly geared group of 4xDK 1xPally last night, driving from the healer and must say I found it quite enjoyable, granted the lack of range will probably hurt in some places, but the burst damage and CC is quite fun.
@Slats:
The problem with DW is that you need to be in Frost Presence to do better DPS than a 2h'er... And 2h'er is in Unholy Presence. This means that DW lose 15% run speed and base-1 second GCD's. The GCD thing is huge in my testing so far.
Also, after much waffling and talking to various people I've decided to stick with the Paladin for the following reasons:
The Paladin is a no-frills healer. You Beacon yourself and then just spam heals on whoever needs them. If you get targeted you Concentration Aura/Aura Mastery and keep spamming. If it gets worse you bubble. Either way the Paladin is a *terrible* target--If you attack me I'm healing myself and I get a Holy Power each time I do that--Which just builds how much healing I can put out. All the while my DK's are tearing you up. This forces people to target my DK's... And I can just sit there and spam heals unhindered. If it's just one person on me, the splashover I get from Beacon and Protector of the Innocent will keep me up until I run out of mana.
What does the Shaman do?
Well, after doing more testing they heal just the same that Paladins do. Earth Shield and Riptide are good heals, and I'd gladly trade Holy Shock for either, but their output is about the same that the Paladin's is... Except that amazingly enough the Paladins AoE is better than the Shaman. Chain Heal just took too big of a hit with the changes to talents and healing. Light of Dawn does have limitations, but the healing is solid on all the people I hit. Yes, the ramp up time is longer but the throughput is better. Mostly you're healing incidental damage with any group healing--Not as a primary way of healing direct damage. AoE healing in general is just not efficient enough nor does it have enough throughput.
So, single target? The Paladin does just as good as the Shaman. AoE? Everyone is weak as I see it. That leaves....
SURVIVABILITY!
And it's pretty obvious the Paladin is better at it than any of the other healers.
tl;dr:
Paladin wins.
I'm not done arguing with you yet, get back on skype >=O i fixed my mic..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
I have both healers... we'll see which is better in cata though.
Honestly I think both will be good, and it will depend on play style and situation. I can think of situations where Shaman will be better and I can think of situations where Paladin will be better. Like you Shodokan I have shamans and paladins almost to 80 so I can decide after some experimentation which I prefer.
@Shodokan
The Ability to WRECK people every 2 minutes is EVERYTHING!! In arena, if you destroy 1 or 2 of the enemy team immediately, you pretty much win. The Rets have this from wings, and from Guardian of the Ancient Kings.
My other point has gone un-opposed that the healing on the DK+4Ret team is divided among 4 characters, which makes CCing the "healer" more difficult. The Healer+ 4DK team has 1 Healer, with little to no healing from the DKs, which means that when the healer gets locked down, the team is without healing,and Chain CCing 1 target is easy, as I'm sure we've all seen. The other Healing ability that the Ret's don't have yet but will is Holy Radiance, which will be very effective flow of healing for it's duration.
Holy radiance for ret really isn't that great, most people from the beta will tell you the same thing. So unless you blow all 4 at once it's not a stready stream of anything. If you blow all 4 the duration gets you to 40ish % life from 0. But also keep in mind it is a heal over time. It heals for 683 non crit baseline and 1024 crit... its like healing steam totem as ret, it really isn't that special as it can only heal for a max of 10240 per toon baseline, even if it could get to about 1/2 your health over 10 seconds it has a huge mana cost at 40% of your mana. Mana is an issue if you are using all of your tools when they need to be used. If you stagger them so that 40 seconds of every minuet you are getting heals then it isn't going to be as effective unless you forsee that the group is going to be taking little damage... and we all know that isn't the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrothelMeister
Yes your healer can get chain CC'd, but with the paladin's healing if you are going to kill someone you need the damage from TV.
You seem to think that people are going to do 5's competitively in cata where blowing wings and killing a target is going to be the bees knees. Sure that is the case but the amount of arena wins it takes to get the same amount of points as in BGs is retarded. Also there are no longer any awards for being top rated arena teams from what i have read. So where does this really apply? It's the same thing with bubble... its once every 5 mins. Sure it is great when you have it but when you don't you are sitting ducks now that theres no more raid sac/bubble combo to keep the team alive. Also in how many situations did this team get obliterated when they were not getting constant FoL procs to heal themselves as they got AOE'd down? Especially now that divine storm is basically useless? Divine storm - School = Physical. So inquisition will not increase the damage of that either, meaning that the healing you get from it will still be negligible. If you are using divine storm every cooldown instead of crusader strike you lose out on a lot of damage... if inquisition buffed divine storm and the glyph for divine storm still existed i'd say there was a good chance it could work great but that's not the case.
Guardian SUCKS ASS, period. It does nearly no damage and basically only applies a STR buff. It explodes for less than mediocre damage as well.
Word of glory does not scale very well with ret unless you spec into increasing usefulness on other players, which only increases the healing of it by 50%. So your 6744 base turns into 10116 base meaning the crit goes to 15175. So this means that you are going to need to crit with all 4 and not get 50% of your life on a single character (plate blues is over 115k), at the sacrifice of a finishing move that does <= the damage of howling blast...and you only have the ability to use this ability when you know all of the rets have max holy power, and unless you get some macro or API/Addon to not allow the use of it unless it does have 3 holy power i don't think that it really is viable to rely on it with the inconsistency of gaining holy power from other things than crusader strike. Plus a healer can get someone 50k healing in less time than it takes to generate the holy power to do so. You're only going to heal for like 12k or so with single holy power, so is 1/10 of a single toon's life healing every few seconds really going to help all that much? So unless you are specing into protector of the innocent and getting 3-7k healing every time you use WoG for each toon as well... and then what is 3-7k in the long run? .025 to .05% of your total health.
With a leading frost DK you do have burst in the same means that 4x dks have (as in rotation wise), but keeping the entire team alive with less than mediocre heals isn't going to be easy or efficient.
With a paladin healer beaconed and the use of hand of sacrifice CC doesn't matter other than cyclone because it will be broken by the damage and immediately healed from healing your team or double healing from healing yourself due to beacon. So that point doesn't hold much ground if you play smart.
So to sum it up...
Paladin has inconsistent damage because it relies on healing most of the time with WoG. Relies on a 2 minuet cooldown to deal with equal members of the opposing faction and has crap for AOE damage and a 1 min cooldown to even make sure the team is being healed when it is actually going to use TV. The damage in comparison outside of wings is laughable at best especially in comparison to a frost DK. The ONLY saving grace paladins have is wings IMO and wings is not enough to make it better than a 4x dps + healer team.
If you wanna run the team, best of luck to you. But unless you have wings or bubble when you meet up with a 4x dk + healer... your entire team is dead by the time you kill a single target.
Shodokan, for rated arenas, do you think Ele Shamans or Frost DKs will be the more effective team?
The trend I see is, if anything is OP, it will be nerfed. and nerfed very quickly. Stacking NS seems very OP to me. I felt 4DK and DK + 4 Rets are kinda on the same boat.
I like frost dk's burst and control. but they die hella fast. At least at level 80, they die like arm/fury warrior.The melee arena match, how long does it really last? More like 30seconds. The match total time is like 2mins. and minus the beginning and ending (clean up), the meaningful fighting time is like 30 seconds. Whatever you can come up in those 30 seconds matters. Wings and bubbles have their places. Death Grip and NS are also awesome. But they are all melees, and melees have similar problems.
Now if you get a friend the heal you, and you use 4 dks. That's a different story. that >>>> playing Dk + 4rets all by yourself, as far as effectiveness goes.
For arena, a team has to be strong against variable compositions of an equal number of players.
The trick is flexibility/adaptability to deal with different compositions, or tools which cannot be negated so you can force the style of play.
Death Grip, is a strong counter to a lot strategies.
The only defense to Necrotic Strike seems to be an immunity effect, but we'd just switch targets.
The weakness of the team, is a relatively small window of immunities, so the need to kill key components of the other team quickly, so they're in a position where they cannot win.
We don't need to blow all our defenses at once, and we do have several.
- Anti-Magic Shell, 5 seconds (7 glyphed) of immunity to the application of harmful effects, every 45 seconds.
- Icebound Fortitude, 12 seconds of sun immunity, every 3 minutes.
- Lichborne, 10 seconds of Fear (and Stun/Charm) immunity, every 2 minutes.
- Pillars of Frost, 20 seconds of knockback immunity, every minute.
- The PvP trinket, every 2 minutes.
Immunity to almost all effects (I'd read this as anything that gives a debuff icon), for 7 seconds every 45 seconds, is a very strong chance to kill any target that doesn't become immune to damage. And using this every 45 seconds, is not a long cooldown.
Knockbacks don't give a debuff icon, but not a lot of classes have these, and we are immune for a relatively long duration.
In the arena environment, I don't like having only one healer, who could be interrupted or chain CC'd. Hand of Sacrifice is 12 seconds, every 2 minutes. This might mean a DPS race of sorts; can we take them out quickly (without heals) as they focus fire our DK's in turn?
For battlegrounds, a team should be able to take out larger groups of opponents.
We're forced to have five of ten (50%) or five of fifteen (33%) of the team in one place; which is a disadvantage.
To counter this, we should be able to fairly consistently be the wrecking ball. Be able to take any position, as our team then holds what we take.
I really like Howling Blast, Howling Blast, Frost Strike, Frost Strike, Howling Blast, Blood Tap, Howling Blast, Frost Strike... for taking out large groups. Run towards the tightest cluster of enemies and Death Grip others into the storm. Of course dealing damage to a lot of opponents at once, doesn't guarantee they cannot AoE or Focus fire us, but the AoE gives us a strong shot.
At least that's my take on the best approach to rated BG's. Once we cap on Conquest Points for the week, we will destroy in the unrated BG's especially going against less coordinated opposition.
DK's are OP again news at 11.
Last 2 weeks that I've done ICC with Reprisal I've ran my 4melee mixed group instead of bringing my shamans to shard everything. My DK is very undergeared and im running a 2handed frost setup pulling crazy numbers.
If they don't nerf the stacking NS this group will be the alternative to shamans + healer multibox pvp imo.
@Toned:
As it stands now, if I understand it correctly, the debuff doesn't "stack" in the sense that consecutive NS's don't just add to the running total--They just reset it to a higher value and refresh the debuff (-30% cast speed). If it does indeed actually stack then this team is going to be the runaway best team to play for Cata.
@All:
Good discussion so far. I think everyone has brought up a lot of valid points but I'd like to say that I'm really surprised people *actually* think that Rets will be a workable team in Cata. Yes, your healing is spread out over 4 toons which makes it harder to CC your healing--But your healing also sucks. There's no way for you to ensure that you're only going to be using WoG when it's at 3 HP without *seriously* lowering your DPS. That means that you never really know how much healing you're going to get when you hit your button. Also, you're one-dimensional as 4x Rets regarding healing--You can WoG. You can Holy Radiance. That's about all you can do in a combat situation. Having a dedicated healer means you have options. You have versatility.
Also, let's not mention that you lose serious DPS in order to heal.
The DK's don't have any of these problems. They DPS like madmen while I heal like a madman. If someone gets on me I DG them off. Or I aura mastery and keep healing. Or I bubble. Or I shield. And meanwhile my DK's are saying hi to whoever is most threatening.
I had a long talk with a GM the other night about multi-boxing when i called to see if i could get a discount for x-fering all my toons which lasted for about an hour. We talked about specific mechanics that are abusable by a boxer such as necrotic strike etc and from the horses mouth unless the class is unbalanced overall and not just in a fashion that a VERY insignificant amount of users actually participate in then those abilities will remain as is. If we want to talk about things being OP in multiples... then both fulmination and lavaburst would not be in the game, but they are balanced around a single person using them on a single target so they remain. If a shaman didn't have lavaburst then ele would be complete ass.Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
On to NS. NS does not stack for every hit, it stacks based on the amount of people doing it on the target. Which means that if you NS and then NS again it just resets the amount back to the max amount of heals necessary, not NS1 + NS2 - Healing done to that target between the two attacks = new healing required. If this debuff does a checksome as to "is this buff on from another player" it then makes that button useless and ultimately the spell useless because you can use plague strike instead for more damage.
Arms warriors played by a skilled player are one of the single best pvp characters in the game. Comparing them to fury also isn't the best comparison because i barely ever see a fury warrior able to compete even 1v1 against a lot of classes, dks have tooks for taking out and preventing things from every class... so comparing them to a class and spec with a lax amount tools for certain situations isn't the best route. Even then warriors have last stand, shield wall, spell reflect, frenzied regeneration, howl of terror etc...
If you are talking purely about arena... the up front burst of a 4 paladin dk team with ranged hammer of wrath is unparalleled, especially if you have inquisition on. But the MAJOR problem for this in arena is that you can't blow this straight off the bat against any team with a priest... mass dispel kills your cooldown use, like bubbles avenging wrath can be dispeled.
Survivability of a shaman team is much larger than a paladin team and their damage is ranged and just as high. At 85 a single lavaburst + mastery proc is equal to about 50k damage... thats a lot and that is PER shaman. The target will die, even with pain suppression. Shaman get totems etc etc... we all know how practical shaman are. The largest advantage a shaman have over the paladin/dk team is that all of their attacks do high damage and fulmination as group is OP as all hell. If you have max fulmination you can guarantee the target will die from 4 of them. Lightning bolt also hits for a baseline amount of like over 10,000... which if you think about it you are doing 1/3 of someone's life every non crit. Not to mention the ability to flash heal someone for like... 1/2 their hp because it is 4 of them in flaky situations, plus you have purge and lust.
So for arena... shaman are superior to DK/Ret.
This team i see like the rets as a 1trick pony in arena though. Pop your anti-CC macro and spam the fuck out of howling blast and frost strike and kill 1-2 people. Then pick the rest off easily. Realistically the numbers for a single attack for a DK are close to 1/3 of their life per attack, so it will take 2-3 attacks to kill someone, but at the same time if NS is up they can't be healed so it doesn't matter. The largest problem for 4x dk team is that they need to use 2 blood runes before they can do their maximum burst potential. Unlike paladins and shaman dks don't have an instagib... but right now my frost strikes and howling blasts in meh gear are hitting for like 14k... so even at those numbers you are killing someone in 2-3 attacks, which because of unholy presence is <3 seconds. You get much more control over the situation in a lot of maps... and if you DG someone to you they are dead before they can be healed plain and simple.
Like i said though, arena is going to be on the back burner in comparison, even a lot of the arena players on Illidan and other hot spots for PVP like servers on BG9 are all happy that they get to do something that requires more than just coordination of cooldowns and switching at the correct times.
I myself am going to play both shaman and paladin/dks. Lavaburst is too powerful... period. 20k+ crits = at least 80% of their life gone, thats if you don't use unleash weapon first. I'm doing paladin + 4 dks, and 4 shaman, and will run my healer for both comps.
As of right now every DK gets their applied. So it "stacks" as in each DK gets their own anti-healing debuff on the target. It resets when the thing is used again, keeping them at -30% casting speed. So for example you have 10,000 AP and your NS has anti-healing of 7.5k, they get a heal of 6k, you NS again... they need 7.5k again before they can get heals again... not 8.5k (the 1k not used from before + new application). One debuff is consumed when they get 7.5k. So lets assume you have 4 debuffs on the target... it requires 31k healing before they get a bit of their hp actually healed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
Can NS be nerfed? OFC it can., but will it? I doubt it. Every other class with a MS effect (priest, hunter, rogue, mage, warrior) gets -10% healing for a duration and does not lose it's effect when they are healed. So in 10 seconds someone gets off 4 flash of lights + 2 holy shocks... 10% of all that healing is down the tubes (lets assume 10k), not just the first 7500 and then they get the rest. 7500 is much less than the 10% debuff over the duration (which resets when re-applied) so sure their first heal makes NS go away, where as the next heal or two after ends up being more healing prevented than the time it takes for regen of unholy runes. No the 10%'s do not stack, but NS and MS effect do so it makes no sense to make NS not exclusive with itself unless you make it non exclusive with other negative healing effects.
Wait wait, so it doesn't stack as ++. It merely reset the timer and amount to max.
Then remind me why it was OP again ?
since we have gone a great deal about this discussion, best if we pull out some numbers. What does necrotic strke really hit for @85 and how much healing does it really prevent ?
hitting for 10k prevent 4k-5k incoming heals ?
Does 5k really matter that much when incoming WOG is like 20k.
Sure you got 4k-5k debuff on your target 100% of the time. How is that better than 10% healing debuff from 1 guy.
What I read from Shokodan is that each NS will reduce the incoming healing by 7500 per DK, so tha means everytime you apply it (twice per 9-10 sec) the incoming healing is cut down by 30K with 4 DKs. One GCD dropping the incoming healing by 30K, while dealing 10K+ damage isn't bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
But at the same time, Wings+Hammer will be hitting for 16-20K per Ret pally (so 80K crit damage) depending on Inquisition from 30y away is twice the effective dent on the HP for 1 GCD.
As for Ret healing, any Ret that doesn't spec into Selfless healer for the +50% healing on other targets is a fool since you never need to cast the heal on yourself, and it gives you a 4%/8%/12% damage bonus when you do so. That with the +healing done and healing recieved talents in the Prot tree should make for some decent incoming heals.
@Shodokan
We're on the same BG, so we can get in vent and queue for 5v5 skirmishes against each other to try this out. I would be very curious to try my team against yours. I have awful gear, but we can try this tonight if you want, I think skirmishes are still available... hit me up with a PM if you want.
I am dinging 80 tonight dude, and it's arena is a whole different ballgame, like i stated a bunch of times...arena is not the pvp focus anymore. DKs + healer is not meant for arena imo, though they would destroy shaman. We don't even need to go into arena to know you'd win. My pally would be dead unless i pop bubble when you wings, and then the healing isn't enough to keep enough damage off of the incoming target from a focus fire of 5. I loved my DK/Ret team, yes they will do well in ARENA because of the wings + HoW. Using AMS wont help because the first of 4 HoW will take it off, and the other 3 will kill him. But then i have like 6 seconds to howling blast you to death before you get another chance to HoW... thinking about it... it could go either way really.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrothelMeister
I'll be glad to skirmish when i know that my health wont be 100% gone at 85 from HoW =P I'll be glad to show you that you can't heal through DK's onslaught though if that's what you are looking to find out.
I'll PM you my vent info and we can talk when i get home if you'd like. Just sit in the welcome channel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrothelMeister
Ok reduce incoming heals by 30k over the entire attacking period 10 seconds is different from flat out reduce incoming heal 30k by 1 shot. Say I got MS on you, reduce healing by 10%. And in 10 seconds, the healer pumps out 300k (made up number), the effect is the same. You negate 30k healing in both cases. The difference here being, the more healing you get, the bigger the effect for 10% MS debuff. and 30k from NS stays flat.
So at the end of the day, it is just a MS like 10% healing debuff. having more DK only makes sure the debuff will stay on 100% of the time.
As of right now it stacks, i tested it on beta. There are 4 separate debuffs. It is 30k with the 4, it is 7.5k alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
I'd love to see a dk team with high arena points..
did anyone already tried arena with dk's?
cause when i just look at the pvp movie of mosg, i c he gets feared badly (in arithi basin it was i think)
and he needed to pickup again :(
im just a bit "scared" to start this combo cause of the different rune cooldowns and procs..
hm soQuote:
Originally Posted by Shodokan
30k in 1 shot aye ? So my incoming 30k WOG crit becomes 0 when it hits, due to having 4 NS debuff on me. But 1 heal will wipe out 4 debuffs.
OR
30k incoming WOG crit hits, reduced by 7.5k , 22.5k still goes through. And NS debuff reduced to 3. In this case, it is nothing but MS. I would look at it as the same as 10% MS
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrothelMeister
4dks will melt the rets team as Howling blast is truly insane AOE right now. Rets have lost their cleave big time. With equal gear, rets probably can't stand up to the DKs.
If the debuff is 7.5k per DK, which with four DK's adds up to 30k.
Ideally, you'd want each DK to apply the debuff immediately.
And to use the other Unholy rune to apply the debuff again, at the 5 second point.
By the 10 second point, the first rune will have regenerated, which means another application.
So, Necrotic Strike will negate the first 30k in healing, every 5 seconds.
That means two attack sequences, really.
One where we want to put out an AoE shit-storm.
So we prioritize Howling Blast, over everything and Frost Strike as secondary because that can regenerate a depleted Frost Rune (or randomly another rune type, but if the DPS priority is Frost Runes - Runic Power - Other Runes then most likely a Frost Rune).
The second type of sequence is whenever we want to focus on something.
So 4x Necrotic Strikes every 5 seconds, as top priority.
And then whatever is the most DPS.
I'm not 100% sure, all i know is there are multiple debuffs on the target.Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
And you just have to target the offender and grip him to your DK's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
mosg, would you like to share some of you macro's you are using please?
like ur castsequence etc, pretty please
greetingz
I'm getting ready to go to work right now but I'm thinking that tonight I will make another video and explain how each of my macros work.
awesome dude :D looking forward to itQuote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2
I dunno... as long as they keep the bubble cooldown on a different timer with wings - the rets lose 50% damage from bubble, but regain 20% from avenging wrath. Simply put - bubble, pop wings and go to town. Hammer of wrath x 4 even at a 30-40% damage reduction is still plenty to drop people in 1 GCD. In Bgs, when facing off against 7-8 opponents at the same time, bubble, wings, and two of them will be dead before bubble ends, and another 1-2 before your wings end.Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
4 well timed anti-magic shells can mitigate at least one of the hammers, so it might come down to a who's better at CC'ing game.
Weeelll, I will let the DKs defend their positions. I am on rets side still lol. The DK team does have healer though. But I am not a big fan of playing healer yourself and controlling DPS at the same time. I tried it back in the shaman days. It was a disaster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappy
Inserted for comic relief... :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mosg2