x1Pally x4 Shaman, or a mixed team? (For PvE)

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182604#po st182604

"Geared out" in my opinion is "able to complete "x" objective". I guess in your mind its "wearing mail and able to complete "x" objective" - which has nothing to do with actually completing the objective.

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I'd even say full epic mail.

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Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182610#post 182610

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Originally Posted by 'Ken',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182600#post1826 00

You only need 1 dedicated healer for heroics and raiding. No need for extra chain heals. There isn't "a lot more micromanagement" if you group your spells properly and use cast sequences properly. In general all spells from any class can be categorized in general categories like aoe/instant cast/regular/DoT/etc. I personally categorize them into: single target dps cast sequence, multi target dps cast sequence, close combat cast sequence, spell interrupt
Also, I prefer 'real' AoE healing from a priest.


More unwieldy? o_O
Seriously, any class can do DPS fine with a castsequence. And what you might call "unwieldy" is something I might call a challenge.

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Why why why WHY do people think they know more about my set up than I do?

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Why can't I haven an opinion?
Why do you assume I don't have any experience with the group combinations I'm talking about or: why is my experience negligible?

My statements are based on the evolvement of my own group, that went as follows:
4 shamans (lvl 70, BC)
=> 4 shamans + warrior tank (lvl 70, BC)
=> 3 shamans + warrior + priest (lvl 80, WotLK)
=> shaman, hunter, mage, warrior, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, [s]paladin,[/s] druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

Each step my group diversified, it was an overall improvement for me.


@ Fursphere:
There is no way that you can claim that X of the same class gives more buffs(main ones, like totem of wrath, priest stamina and spirit, int buff, etc.) than a well-chosen diversification of other classes. Some shaman totems stack, I agree, and that *can* be very powerful. Also, not all class buffs stack, I'm aware of that, but in the end, you gain more unstacked buffs with different classes than with stacking the same class.
How much have you raided? Surely, you must have seen a DPS improvement when being in a raid? I definitely have (with my shamans).

[edit] Further down, you mentioned a list of buffs, however, important buffs/skills are missing per class, like the ones from the talent trees.

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Originally Posted by 'Ken',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182714#post1827 14

AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

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No wonder things improved for you - you are now running 5 mans with 6 characters :) (It's either a mistake or you're raiding).

I don't think this should degenerate into my group composition is better than yours.

The pally/shaman combo has been tested and proven by a lot of people, call it flavour of the month effect but it works.
It's easier to macro up when you have 4 of the same class, with the same build. The totems are incredibly useful, and cover many, many situations.
Beign able to reincarnate on 4 and res on 5 is wonderful for wipe recovery when learning new instances.
You have less issues with procs like hot streak, earth and moon etc (not sure what the names are).

Ken's group is well rounded buff wise and he feels it is easier to gear up, although I feel that crafted items shouldn't be discounted in the gearing up process considering the ease with which a team of 5 can farm gold at 80.

There is probably more complexity to macro setup, but once you've got that done it's down to tweaking again. Are the characters in the group performing optimally, who knows.

One thing to consider - a team with 4 shaman may be massively affected by any nerf (but also may be massively improved by an buff to a class). The team of 5 different classes will have less of an impact. (Note: some shaman teams were struggling post wotlk, but excel after the recent damage buff in the patch)

I like the idea of a diverse group - it would give me flexibility should I quit multiboxing to play different classes and fulfill different roles in the guild i'm in.
In reality a lot of folks with the shammy pally combo have other classes anyway.

So to the OP - if you have all the classes you listed at 80 then make two teams and see if you prefer one or the other, as personal preference and fun is greater than everything else.

If you don't then you would be able to have your high level pve fun now (presuming a tank at high level) rather than levelling another team.

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Originally Posted by 'shaeman',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182750#post 182750

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Originally Posted by 'Ken',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182714#post1827 14

AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

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No wonder things improved for you - you are now running 5 mans with 6 characters :) (It's either a mistake or you're raiding).

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That was a typo :)

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I don't think this should degenerate into my group composition is better than yours.

The pally/shaman combo has been tested and proven by a lot of people, call it flavour of the month effect but it works.

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Of course it works, I'm just stating that it's not optimal in relation to buffs and gearing.

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It's easier to macro up when you have 4 of the same class, with the same build.

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Agree, but that's only a temporary problem. I actually find it a good thing that it's got more macro magic to it, cause I like to spend time trying to create the best macro-setup.

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The totems are incredibly useful, and cover many, many situations.

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Sure they are, it's just that after 8 totems down, you've covered the all the important ones.

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Beign able to reincarnate on 4 and res on 5 is wonderful for wipe recovery when learning new instances.
You have less issues with procs like hot streak, earth and moon etc (not sure what the names are).

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Other classes have their own wipe-recovery abilities.
Also, learning new instances covers a relatively small part of the game time. After that, you shouldn't suffer from 4 or 5 wipes an hour, 'cause then you're doing it wrong :P

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Ken's group is well rounded buff wise and he feels it is easier to gear up, although I feel that crafted items shouldn't be discounted in the gearing up process considering the ease with which a team of 5 can farm gold at 80.

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True. It's just that you can't craft a full epic set of a specific gear type. Crafting the items that you can craft for a character is going to cost a lot indeed and even though you can farm gold easier at level 80, it's still A LOT of gold, considering you probably want an epic flying mount too.

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There is probably more complexity to macro setup, but once you've got that done it's down to tweaking again. Are the characters in the group performing optimally, who knows.

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Indeed.

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One thing to consider - a team with 4 shaman may be massively affected by any nerf (but also may be massively improved by an buff to a class). The team of 5 different classes will have less of an impact. (Note: some shaman teams were struggling post wotlk, but excel after the recent damage buff in the patch)

I like the idea of a diverse group - it would give me flexibility should I quit multiboxing to play different classes and fulfill different roles in the guild i'm in.
In reality a lot of folks with the shammy pally combo have other classes anyway.

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It makes it easier in raids: some people will really be pissed off when you roll for every caster mail item with all 4 shamans(because it makes it very difficult for any other shaman to get the item), while they won't complain if you roll for almost every drop but just with 1 character.

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Originally Posted by 'Ken',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182714#post1827 14

My statements are based on the evolvement of my own group, that went as follows:
4 shamans (lvl 70, BC)
=> 4 shamans + warrior tank (lvl 70, BC)
=> 3 shamans + warrior + priest (lvl 80, WotLK)
=> shaman, hunter, mage, warrior, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

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So 3 relatively straightforward ranged DPS classes, and your choice of tank/healer. Your DPS dynamic doesn't change that much outside of your skip from 3 shamans to the shaman, hunter, and mage, relatively straightforward and front loaded damage dealers. Ever done any work with a shadow priest, warlock, rogue, DPS warrior, or death knights? Is your mage set up to account for hot streak procs? How's their spell hit?

Anything can be (and have been) macroed to output their top end DPS, but you face a serious issue of gearing and where in the DPS cycle their damage lands. Locks and shadow priests in particular face an issue of their damage starting off pitiful and slowly building up to a crescendo of ticking madness. You face particular issues in classes that don't involve the stack spell damage/crit mantra of shamans, and if, God help you, you have melee characters, there are a whole slew of stats you have to keep up on to make sure they stay relevant.

It's certainly challenging and interesting, but it also gets tedious and annoying the wider methodology of gearing and rotations you have to develop to get the thing to run, as opposed to straight shamans, which are pretty simple to stack your 2 stats, write a few macros, go to town, and end up being just as effective, if not more so, as a mixed class group trying to capitalize on synergy.

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=182791#po st182791

[...]And in my seeminly unworthly mix of gear (including.... *gasp* cloth items! /oh noes!)[...]

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Great discussion tactics! Putting words in my mouth(that cloth is unworthy) and ridicule (the part inbetween the brackets) is always a great way to get a good discussion going on!
I actually thought you were in for a serious conversation, but I guess I was wrong.

Let me quote what I said about cloth:

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You want to put shamans in cloth? Sure you CAN do that, but it's everything but desirable.

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Mail is desirable. When I say that cloth is not desirable, it does not mean that it's unworthy or worthless.

Here are some more statements I made about gear types:

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Sure, but when you equip your shaman with cloth, I wouldn't find that shaman "geared out". Of course its DPS will be improved, but you haven't finished gearing that shaman, since he's still wearing cloth.

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So if you have your shamans in a cloth/leather/mail mix, you considered them all geared? I don't.

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There's nothing that says that cloth is useless or unworthy for a shaman. You're just scewing my words again.

I am by no means as experienced as you guys. But I started with a prot pally and 4 shaman.

Now I have only one shaman left. First I added a Frostmage for 1 Ele Shammy, and I love it. Not only the int buff is nice, but Frostbolt + Blizzard are badass DPS - plus the frosteffects you get, plus the 2% caster crit on each frosthit (stacks up to 5 times). I do not even want to mention PORTALS *yikes*.
Then I changed my resto shaman vs a disc priest and the priest heals so much better. Shield, Groupheal, Sta buff, WP buff, Fear immunity for tank etc. add so much more than my resto could. Yesterday I changed another Ele shamy for a Moonkin and again, I love it. Moonkin caster buffs, Mana regen buff, Moonkin ultimates, Moonkin AoE, 13% caster dmg increase on mobs, to-hit-debuff on bosses etc. etc. All this stacks up.

Compared together, my mixed group DPS is 35% higher (!) than my 1 Pala + 4 Shamy DPS. And its so much more enjoyable to have different chars to equip, explore their strenghts and weaknesses ... and have a whole bunch of toons available for your solo-play whenever you feel to.

I will never go back to shamans, I have one Ele shamy left for ingrim and caster-speed totems ... and yes, the mana-reg totems are nice, but so what. Just my opinion.

You know, we should probably just build a concise list of classes, specs, and synergy (both in an individual capacity and in a stacking capacity) and the difficulties associated with them so we can stop tossing vague accusations back and forth. More on that as I get the time.

Right, but I was talking more along the lines of as it relates to boxers in terms of difficulty of approach as well as the stacking affect that raidcomp doesn't take in to account (as far as I'm aware). For example, does raid comp figure in the utility of 4-balance spec druids, only 1 in boomkin form while the other gets the aura buff but maintain caster form to drop HoTs (more HoTs! More HoTs! More HoTs!) on the tank?

5 druids don't have a hell of a lot of synergy, but I'm betting it beats leveling/gearing up multiple teams when all I really want to do is pwn in PvP (not because of skill, but because of pure treant advantage... if you start talking aobut AoE against my treants I'll put on the ear muffs).

Just do what you think is fun. Developers are changing WoW so that nearly any class combination can be successful. Are there better ones? Sure. I'd be willing to be that due to ease of use and current stacking, DK+4 shammy is the strongest. What you lose in group utility/buffs you can in ease of use... ease of use often means increased DPS. But, they don't have treants... and that's what this guy cares about (your mileage may vary).

I think ill just stick to the x1 Pally, x4 Shaman setup for now, its less leveling anyway.

Thanks for the replies everyone! great information :thumbsup: