Experience will triumph over DOING a job, typically, but good luck GETTING a job without a degree or a super fat resume. Young guys getting started have to 1) know someone (more important than a degree for getting a job) or 2) have a piece of paper :/
I've seen the same. I've actually seen quite a few comparisons. Now of course some of this only holds up depending on what you are capable of doing without a degree. However think of it this way... two 18 year olds just graduated high school. Teenager one goes to college. He turns 22 and graduates with a bachelor degree - total earned so far - $0 (of course he might have had some jobs throughout but most likely just to pay for some food etc). At 22, with a bachelor degree but no practical experience, he goes and finds a job that doesn't require any experience at a company where he can work his way up - it pays $36k a year. By the time he is 26, he is now making $55k a year. At 30 he finally gets his big break into upper management and is making $100k/year. It can go beyond this of course, but this is also a good scenario, a lot of people with a bachelor degree may never even see $55k a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=172636#po st172636
Teenager number two does not go to college. At 18 he gets a job in a helpdesk making $35k a year. At 22 he is now a full time system admin making $50k a year. At 26 hes a Sr. admin making $75k a year, and at 30 he has now been making $95k a year for a couple years.
By 30, teenager 1 with a bachelor degree has made $364k total and is now making $100k/year. However, he had to pay back $50k in student loans so his total made is ~$314k.
By 30, teenager 2 without a bachelor degree has made $680k. He is also now making $95k/year.
By the time both people retire, theres a decent chance they'll have made the same amount or even that the teenager that didn't go to college made more.
Of course this is one example and the variables can all be wildly different depending on the scenario. Just want to show that having a degree isn't always going to mean you will make more money over the course of your life. I will also say that IT is really the one major field (aside from entrepreneurship) where this can happen and happens a lot. Most fields, having the 4 year degree will earn you more over the course of your life.
I don't have a bachelor degree (or any college degree), but I am a firm believer in most people getting one. Sometimes though I wonder if it is worth it. I have a cousin who is 23 that graduated with a bachelor degree last year and hes making $33k right now, 1 year after graduating with a degree. He will move up eventually but hes not going to be at the $100k mark any time in the next 10 years if ever.
Again, it depends on what field you're in. Also, someone with no degree and no experience, and someone WITH a degree but no experience - both are going to have a terrible time finding anything other than a very low level job, especially in this economy. Yeah having the degree will help a little bit but neither person is going to jump into a super high paying job (unless their degree is a med degree or something :D )Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Coltimar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=173050#pos t173050
Not contradicting the fact that a degree is good to have (it is) but, especially in the case of something like IT, someone with a 4 year degree and someone with no degree will have a relatively equal chance to get a starting position in their field that pays approximately the same. The difference is the person with the degree can eventually move into mid-upper management if they choose to (not everyone wants to) :)
I'd argue your numbers are relatively skewed Hachoo, but I totally understand your point and agree, to an extent. But thus far, it seems most of the "degree means squat" arguments rely on an IT related example (I'm not IT, I don't know what the difference between a degree is or isn't in that field).
Ok, here:
http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/p23-210.pdf
Its a bit dated, but it addresses the point I'm trying to make. Comparing the top and bottom outliers of any given sample will give innacurate impressions. If you think you're an outlier, feel free to disregard what anyone tells you about your earning potential, but on a general basis, higher education pays off.
Edit: More up to date information: http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab7.htm
Oh I agree the numbers can be (and probably are) way off. Its just really hard to get numbers that mean something without taking a huge survey. So I just used myself as example of teen2 and one of my RL friends as an example of teen1 since that was the only example I had :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=173117#post 173117
55k is near welfare for this area (and areas like New York). 55k is pretty nice for South Dakota.
I second Fursphere's recomendation on joining the military for at least 4 years. If you have military experience on your resume people really respect that, and I believe will give you an edge. People out of the military are generally more discplined, get shit done, and don't complain. I've worked in an office with a large amount of navy/airforce/marines and they were all very good workers and went on to get good jobs as contractors.
This is the truth. I used to frequently race my cars at the track, and I'd easily spend $500 a month just in 116 octane gas.. NOT including replacing worn/broken/upgraded parts. Now I just make the occasional trip to the track and I'm saving a ton of cash.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Hachoo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171102#post1 71102
I also enjoy scuba diving. Gas for the boat is easily $20-30 per person on a day's dive. Provided food/gift to the boat owner or boat rental is extra expense. Air tank refills aren't too expensive, but the gear is relatively expensive.
I easily spend more than $75/mo target shooting. Ammunition is not cheap. $10-12 is 20 rounds for my AR-15. $15 for 50 rounds of .40SW for my Glock. My M1 Garand's .30-06 isn't cheap either. Unless you're buying Russian surplus for a semi-auto AK47, you're spending a lot of money for an hour at the range. (No, you're not making 40 rounds last an hour. More like 200+.)
$75/mo for 5-boxing is one of the cheapest hobbies out there. Ever try oil painting? A black canvas is easily $30-50, and oil paints are $5-10 per color. Yes, you can mix, but you're still going to be using a lot of paint. I was going nuts over the art shop bills when my ex-gf was asking for cash to support her hobby.
I'm a software engineer for military simulations. Stay in school kids. Study in high school. Pick a major you ENJOY in college, and work harder in the books than you did in high school. Do well in school to prove to an employer that you deserve a shot at a good starting job. Work hard to prove you deserve to be promoted at the job for higher salary. If you've proven you're in high demand, you can basically name your salary. Play equally as hard as you work.. and I'm not talking about WoW.
I didn't follow my above advice, but I WISH I DID. I cruised through high school since it was easy. I picked a major for the idea of the med-school career (surgeon) instead of what would I be happy with if I didn't go to med school (microbiology). I discovered I hated looking through microscopes 3 years into college. I changed majors to something I enjoyed more (Software Engineering/Computer Science). I was in college for 8 years straight and was burnt out at the 5th year. I worked my way through, was likeable enough in an interview even though my overall 8 year GPA wasn't stellar.
I busted my ass at work since day one to get to where I am today. I only wish my college entrance advisor asked me the proper question - "What major would you pick for fun, if you weren't planning on med-school?" I would have started with computer science from the beginning, as I taught myself computer programming the first 3 years while tutoring actual Comp. Sci. majors for beer money.
To put it bluntly, don't fuck up. It's not easy getting a 2nd chance at college - everything is on a permanent record, and future interviewers WILL look at it. I look back and think that a good combination of luck and personality helped me overcome my lack of discipline in college to land a fantastic job out of school, but if I were to have a shot again, I wouldn't take that risk. I always had no doubt in my ability and knew I'd be valued once I started work.. I just looked at college as "doing my time" until I graduated. That's not the right mindset.. and if things worked just a little differently, I could have really regretted it.
I had something of a front-row seat for this, I had just been promoted to IT Manager at my workplace (they pretty much created the department at that time), and a friend of mine was just heading into the job market fresh off of time spent in one of those fly-by-night technical colleges. He turned out alright, he was smart, hard-working, and ambitious but not the type to leap into a pool before checking for water. I heard about guys who were just starting out and making three or four times my salary (and spending it as fast as it hit their pockets). I heard about recruiters walking right into offices and walking out with people who they had made ridiculous offers to.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171819#po st171819
And then I got to hear about how those guys were pretty much finished when the market imploded. Their jobs went away, the high salaries went away, the perks went away... the mortgages for their summer homes didn't go away, nor did the debt on their fancy cars, or their credit cards, or the loans... nasty stuff. I was glad that I didn't decide to make the jump at that time, I was pretty set where I was (and where I still am... I will have been here 20 years as of September). And my job, salary, and perks are still here, too.
I don't have a degree and I make over $30k more than my wife who does have a degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Bigfish',index.php?page=Thread&postID=171069#post 171069
That being said.. If I had additional money..I'd go back and finish my degree. And I don't think I would get any benefit at all from doing it other than being able to say I had one.
I just go and sell a cow. :D
Seriously, I own a small cattle ranch, so Multi-boxing wow is just how I relax at the end of the day.
Stephen