Cataclysm: The Ret Paladin- AKA Multi-Box Burst PVP Machines.

The other thing that has made frosty so good to play is the simple dps rotation. I haven't played around on PTR yet but is it as easy to get an efficient dps cycle with unholy?

Also the advantage of HB was not only perma snare to keep us on target but the aoe pressure it put on teams. I guess we are trading this pressure for improved single target dps with unholy and the super pets are always a nice source of extra pressure?

Edit: Been following this thread and the DK one, meant to post this there, sorry.

BrothelMeister I faced off against your team on wednesday (day after i hit 85) with my 4shaman1Hpal we did like 6 matches? I think you won 4 I won 2, I have to say I was quite impressed with the burst that the paladins did, I basically looked at my health frames right after you reached me and 1 of my shamans were dead, the only reason I beat you in my greens and few blues from questing was when I split your team up on unfriendly melee maps ie hit you off ledges, due to my burst not being that great yet. It would be fun to see how the 2 teams go head to head with one another after I get some gear though, maybe the pally burst won't be so high. How long does it usually take to kill people with high resil with your team?

Ps: I have to admit that 4 rets with wings and guardians all charging you is quite scary lol :)

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

Remanz, how do you feel about having toons that can Cleanse/Freedom themselves? It seems to me playing my DK's that the most important part of a melee boxed team is time on target--Even if they have no burst as long as you're running a 4 dps setup it's all about having your guys on target. On live now I get decent time up on target with 4x Death Grip and the group snare via Howling Blast but a good team will just Freedom/Lifegrip/HoP/whatever my target and force me to swap--Losing DPS in the meantime and giving them more time to CC me.

I think once this PTR gets pushed to live it's going to be no contest--DK's with Death's Advance will have the best mobility of any melee class. My Rets still call to me though--The buffs to Rets on the PTR seem real nice and make them easier to box... And Cleanse/Freedomx4 is something I miss dearly.

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I've had a long discussion and debate with my friend who plays a frost mage main in pvp. Cleanse/Freedom gives Retribution a chance to hang with frost mages. It is one of the best tools for a melee class. However, just cleanse + freedom is NOT enough. Simply because the moment you touch the mage, you will be snared and the mage will gain a step on you. From that point one, it is the same old kitting game. Retribution will keep cleansing himself and not doing much damage to the frost mage. So Rets don't counter frost mage like feral druids did. Otherwise, they would've nerfed the cleanse from Rets, not the powershift for feral.

The key here is that Retribution has no snare, no charge, more importantly, no 9k dots on the mage. With the limited amount of time that Rets can get into melee with the frost mage. I am just not doing enough damage. This is where the DK comes in. The DK offers control and snare. It makes the team possible.

So to sum it up for the cleanse/freedom. It is good to have as it takes care of snare/root. The other half of the problem is CC. AOE + Instant CC will render half to full of my teams useless. Some good teams, they create this 1v1v1v1v1 situation in 5s. Where they don't focus fire to start, they individually start with the CC game. Just as you miss the cleanse/freedom, I miss anti magic shell that can be used preemptively. Immue to CC.

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Originally Posted by Koralon

BrothelMeister I faced off against your team on wednesday (day after i hit 85) with my 4shaman1Hpal we did like 6 matches? I think you won 4 I won 2, I have to say I was quite impressed with the burst that the paladins did, I basically looked at my health frames right after you reached me and 1 of my shamans were dead, the only reason I beat you in my greens and few blues from questing was when I split your team up on unfriendly melee maps ie hit you off ledges, due to my burst not being that great yet. It would be fun to see how the 2 teams go head to head with one another after I get some gear though, maybe the pally burst won't be so high. How long does it usually take to kill people with high resil with your team?

Ps: I have to admit that 4 rets with wings and guardians all charging you is quite scary lol :)

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There you are, I couldn't find you on the forums, but I recognized the Barcodes. Anyone with as low of resilience, and HP as your team is usually a free win, but 4 Ele + HPally really has a huge leg up on a 5 melee team. People with high resil have been trouble so far, but that's because I'm still behind in gear somewhat (I didn't exploit the Tol Barad week of 1800 Honor)

If you notice I usually beat you when your Grounding totems weren't up, or your healer was out of position. Your team has a lot of CC, and you weren't using close to enough of it. Groudnings with earth bind + Spirit walker would have been the shit to stop me, yet I never saw it all meshed together. Hex would have been good while I was charging in, if you had had your groundings up.

Keep working at it :)

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Originally Posted by remanz

I've had a long discussion and debate with my friend who plays a frost mage main in pvp. Cleanse/Freedom gives Retribution a chance to hang with frost mages. It is one of the best tools for a melee class. However, just cleanse + freedom is NOT enough. Simply because the moment you touch the mage, you will be snared and the mage will gain a step on you. From that point one, it is the same old kitting game. Retribution will keep cleansing himself and not doing much damage to the frost mage. So Rets don't counter frost mage like feral druids did. Otherwise, they would've nerfed the cleanse from Rets, not the powershift for feral.

The key here is that Retribution has no snare, no charge, more importantly, no 9k dots on the mage. With the limited amount of time that Rets can get into melee with the frost mage. I am just not doing enough damage. This is where the DK comes in. The DK offers control and snare. It makes the team possible.

So to sum it up for the cleanse/freedom. It is good to have as it takes care of snare/root. The other half of the problem is CC. AOE + Instant CC will render half to full of my teams useless. Some good teams, they create this 1v1v1v1v1 situation in 5s. Where they don't focus fire to start, they individually start with the CC game. Just as you miss the cleanse/freedom, I miss anti magic shell that can be used preemptively. Immue to CC.

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All this post says is that clearly, a good frost mage is not a kill target. If your first target is the frost, and he effectively gets away after you open up, pick a different target (Arms Warrior)

This team has superb mobility so long as you are matching their snares with snares of your own from the DK. We all know this is chains, desecration, and chill-blains. (I prefer chains and Desecration as an Unholy DK, but will likely go with Necrotic strike's Desecration, and chains for the root effect as a Frost DK post patch)

I don't think it's that easy Brothel. I've never been a doomsayer on these forums but as they currently work one single Mage will make a melee cleave team lose. If you don't have Mass Dispel or Shattering Throw to get rid of a Mage's iceblock you will have an incredibly difficult time winning. You have two options:

A) Attack them and then swap targets when they Iceblock and then back to them. You're unlikely to kill anyone in the first 30 seconds of a match if you do this--Which means you're probably going to lose with a blitz-like 4 DPS cleave setup.

B) Don't attack them and let them turret cast while they root, snare and Ring of Frost your team, in which case you're going to lose.

I believe that http://www.wowhead.com/item=62471 is a guaranteed necessary item for all melee teams in arenas now.

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Originally Posted by BrothelMeister

All this post says is that clearly, a good frost mage is not a kill target. If your first target is the frost, and he effectively gets away after you open up, pick a different target (Arms Warrior)

This team has superb mobility so long as you are matching their snares with snares of your own from the DK. We all know this is chains, desecration, and chill-blains. (I prefer chains and Desecration as an Unholy DK, but will likely go with Necrotic strike's Desecration, and chains for the root effect as a Frost DK post patch)

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I used to think frost mage is a terrible first target. Playing higher teams more, I now changed my mind on the mages. I target them first. Force them into iceblock is a top priority. Mage is just doing too much if you leave them alone. It is simply a "let others beat me rather than the mage" strategy.

I faced this team twice. and they just eat me alive. Killed my DK in like 3 seconds while render my entire team useless.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/arena/nerzhul/5v5/jawking/

Yeah, my strat now is to focus their Mage and force an Iceblock and then swap back as soon as it wears off. A Mage left alone is just going to turret cast you to death. If they didn't have Iceblock I think it'd be a different world for us--You lose so much momentum when you have to swap targets and then back. This is, to me, almost a good enough reason to run with a Shaman healer. You get the offensive Purge so you can rip off Iceblock and get the Mage kill asap plus they're pretty durable.

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Originally Posted by Mosg2

Yeah, my strat now is to focus their Mage and force an Iceblock and then swap back as soon as it wears off. A Mage left alone is just going to turret cast you to death. If they didn't have Iceblock I think it'd be a different world for us--You lose so much momentum when you have to swap targets and then back. This is, to me, almost a good enough reason to run with a Shaman healer. You get the offensive Purge so you can rip off Iceblock and get the Mage kill asap plus they're pretty durable.

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err, purge can't dispel iceblock. It is the same as divine shield. Only warrior shatter throw and priest mass dispel can strip it. Restore shaman needs to run to stay alive, probably not the best solo healer in 5s.

Gah, I thought it was Purge/Dispellable. Le sigh. Was probably thinking about Hand of Protection.

Whelp, at least I can spend time leveling that 4x Mage team now haha.