The Problem of a Retri Team you can see here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wSr7...eature=related
The Retri part start with 1:05
Running with a 2h Hammer but a good Player can run away ^^
Or Dalaran Arena, a good kick and you have a big Problem
The Problem of a Retri Team you can see here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4wSr7...eature=related
The Retri part start with 1:05
Running with a 2h Hammer but a good Player can run away ^^
Or Dalaran Arena, a good kick and you have a big Problem
Quote:
Originally Posted by sephice
wtf was that
43rd !
WTF Sephice
i think such videos are ment to be forgotten ..... but it fits :D
there must have been a nerf, i played on my 85 paladin w/ 85 blue handout weapon and I was getting no where near any of the numbers posted in the beginning. Shaman seemed slightly better and DK seemed kinda OP. might have to spend the rest of wotlk leveling my other dk's :(. If only dk's could bubble!
Needing 3 holy power really slows down paladin burst, having to build up and then decide on dps vs heal for using it sucks. We will see how beta progresses, but I may end up a sad panda with regards to pally's.
Yep, there was a huge nerf. It made me sad.Quote:
Originally Posted by outdrsyguy1
And for those able to try it, how good was this boost?
Retribution
- Crusader Strike now causes 120% weapon damage, up from 100%.
- Selfless Healer now increases the effectiveness of Word of Glory's heal by 25/50% when used on others.
- The Art of War now causes 100% additional damage, up from 30%.
Those damage buffs are nice but you're losing 25% of your healing from Selfless Healer I believe.
Those buffs/nerfs don't matter too much IMO. Ret is way too proc based to be effective since the mastery change.
I hesitate to call it threadomancy, but...
How does everyone who has a 4x Ret team feel about them post 4.0? I've played mine a fair bit and here are my comments:
1. It seems like it's pretty easy to set up a good one-button DPS system. This is a plus--The DPS loss from /stopcasting isn't too terrible.
2. Healing has become much more binary. 4x Word of Glory is worth like, 50k healing on my team without crits. You can't do it quite as often as the old Art of War but the throughput is insane.
Anyone have more experience to add?
Well, I played quite a bit with my rets.
The good:
The burst is up from pre 4.0. Mainly due to we are able to throw hammers with wings. But I don't think this burst offsets the resilience and HP buff. TV hits really hard. I have yet to find a good way to sync 4 (3 holy powered) TV together. At level 80, landing those 4 TV together will mean death to any class. Judgement has a longer range now. So we get some damage while being kited.
The bad:
Pretty much anything defensive and healing. We are the suicide squat now. Kinda like arm warrior. Divine storm is not worth using anymore. and Missing that "free heal from attack" is quite large. Stand there and heal or use WOG mean less damage. Art of war procs a lot less. And it rarely procs together on all 4. Again, I have no good way to sync exorcism. All my defensive stuff are gone. No sacred shield. No sacrifice. Bubble shorter duration.
Conclusion:
Hate to admit. But I only got one way to beat someone in arena. That is to global a target right off the bat. In order to do that, I have to sync my attacks. Unlike shamans + healer, I don't have the staying power to hange with a group of 5 individual players.
I've noticed it's a heck of a lot harder in heroics now, part of that is my DK needs better avoidance as I see he's taking crushing blows all the time now. 50k HP and gets melted rather quickly. I only did a few instances yesterday FoS, PoS, and old kingdom. On PoS, I wiped badly on the final boss as my tank got melted in what seemed like 3 hits.
My pallies DPS has gone down from ~6k on the target dummies to ~2.5k, so I know I have a lot of work to get my macros optomized, but I think even after better macros, I don't think they'll ever push 6k dps again @ 80. What's really sad is that I ran a heroic with my 5 shammys and it was so much smoother and easier. Both teams have the same gear (1800 pvp gear).
I really need to figure out a way to put zealotry and avenging wrath in a some sort of nuking macro as you can cast crusader strike, templar's verdict, hammer of wrath in a nice sequence.
Are there any addons that can show you the holy power in raid frames?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappy
Not that I know of yet. If someone know please. Or maybe Jamba would be nice enough to add it. HP is like combo points. If a raid / party frame is capable of showing combo points, it should be able to show HP as well.
Right now, I am just guessing it. "Oh, I 've been spamming CS for a while now. Let me spam the TV key". and some pallies got 3 HP, some got 2 HP. It is not in sync. 2.5k is low though. Do you have Holy Wrath in your rotation ? It hits normal non-undead now.
edit: the opt rotation seems to be
- TV (3HP) > HoW > CS > Ex > Judge > HW > Cons
I screwed around with this team for a while last night. Reglyphed and respec'd slightly and a few interesting things I found:
by using:
/castsequence .......
/cast Exorcism
/cast Hammer of Wrath
/stopcasting
vs
/castsequence ......exorcism....
/cast Hammer of Wrath
My dps was about 500 higher on the lateral one. Watching jamba, I was missing a few free procs of exorcism, but one big difference I noticed is when popping wings. Hammer of Wrath would only fire if you had a free exorcism up, so between losing Hammer of Wrath and resetting the swing timer, I'm convinced th second macro is a little better. In this scenerio, the 2nd macro added ~2k dps while wings was active.
I'll have to dig up the huge castsequence I created last night, but it's something along the lines of:
/castsequence reset=combat Judgement, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Divine Storm, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Templar's Verdict, Exorcism, Holy Wrath, Judgement, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Judgement, Templar's Verdict, Crusader Strike, Crusader Strike, Templar's Verdict, Exorcism, Holy Wrath
Then with each paladin, I move the divine storm further in the sequence, so that each rotation I have 3 doing Templar's Verdict, and one casting Divine Storm. After running a few heroics, I noticed that I rarely ever had to heal my paladins, and now on the boss fights, I was seeing ~6.5k DPS. By watching jamba procs, almost every time that it got to the exorcism in the cast sequence, it was a free/instant cast.
Now if I could find a good way to put Zeolotry in all of it some way.
Crushing blows? I thought those only happened if mob was more than three levels above you or you weren't crit immune. Are you spec'd for tanking?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappy
Spec'd for tanking, however it was late, so there's a chance that i was facing the mob. I know if you're not facing the mob, all bets are off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Multibocks
Good stuff Zappy. I will try to put everything into castsequence instead of just guessing the TVs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappy
But with Ex in it. Wouldn't it be kind of risky ? If it gets to exorcism, and you don't have art of war. It will start to cast. And if you move, you lose the cast. Now you are stuck with exorcism until you can get it out. Just a thought.
Oh and I tried the scourge lord too last night in POS. He hits super hard now. Pre 4.0, I can just eat the forceful smash after he bounces me away. Now I have to run, and kite him a little bit. Pre 4.0 was easy for us because we can rotate divine sacrifice when Rimefang marks one of my paladins. Now I have to move them individually. Combined with DK getting murdered, this fight is not that easy anymore.
Start with army of dead. and burn all wings in the beginning. With some luck on kiting, I got through with 1 paladin and dk alive at the end. Also, somehow I could not see the ice patches on the ground. Walk into it means death for sure.
I don't know guys. I might be throwing in the towel with dk + rets. Or at least not leveling them first for the initial PVP race. Played a bunch of bgs last night. It is kind of discouraging.
no cleanse, no kill. 1 frost mage can kite my team forever. and there is not much I can do about it. and without defensive skills, I am just sitting there and getting nuked (at least arm warrior get to spin). I am no longer face rolling. Burst doesn't mean much when I can't touch them.
Can you elaborate a little? Can't you deathgrip the mage after he blinks? And what about chains of ice?Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
i don't know how you could accomplish much without cleanse anymore.. I had to spam it constantly against frost mages and a lot of other classes, not only to prevent kiting, but to recover from fearbombs and dots everywhere.
Just got back from Blizzcon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Firstcow
I was laughing so hard when GC said his habit included nerfing paladins.
ANyway. The mage has so many tools to kite melees. Without cleanse, it is just a nightmare. The mage can start with the pet range nova. and simply go from there. Deathgrip is only 1 skill. He has like 3 novas. and obviously, if I am just 5 v 1 mage, I can simply exorcism him to death. But that is rarely the case in BG, combined with warlock, hunter, priest, and of cuz , the unkillable holy paladin. I am not killing anyone.
Looks like I will need to resub to take on the dk+rets challenge again :) Now if the wife wouldn't threaten to cut my balls...Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
Here's a new idea for the DK/4 paladin teams, and this one is a little outside the box.
Unfortunately, all my gear is ret gear atm, but I'm seriously considering making 4 shockadins. Shockadins look to be back since 4.0.1, so I'm gonna respec soon and give this a go in some instances hopefully tonight. If you're confused on shockadins, some good info here: http://www.wowwiki.com/Shockadins
After taking a good look at the holy tree, I'm thinking this might be exactly what our team needs.
Here's gonna be some of the key talents that'll make this viable:
* Protector of the innocent. Whenever you cast a heal on any target, you'll be healing all 4 of your paladins as well.
* Blazing Light (20% increased damage on Holy Shock and Exorcism).
* Denounce (75% mana reduction on excorcism, but 50% chance to have exorcism instant and no mana when casting holy shock) -- This is basically your art of war proc, except it'll proc from your main abililty -- holy shock
* Enlightened Judgements - increase range by 10 yards of judgements ** and ** instantly heals you for 2915.
* Beacon of Light..... OMFG... Now this talent has some serious goodness when boxed. "The target becomes a Beacon of Light to all members of your party *or* raid. Each heal you cast on any party or raid member, heals the beacon for 50% of amount healed." At this point, we'll have 4 of our guys with a beacon on them at all times. A nice piece of this is that it's not just party - it's raid, so it'll work in bgs just fine when we are split up, so everytime you cast a heal, you'll be healing 4 of your guys at once.
* Sacred Cleansing - Another awesome one.. Everybody crying about not having cleanse... Here's your answer to that one - "Your Cleanse spell now also dispels 1 Magic effect."
* Paragon of Virtue - Reduced CD of Avenging Wrath by 60 seconds, and Hand of Sacrafice by 30 seconds.
* Aura Mastery -- with 4 paladins, you'll have 16 seconds of no silence or interrupt effects.
I think the 5 optional talents would best be spent in crusade (30% increased damage to holy shock) and Improved Judgements - This stacks with Enlightened Judgements - so we'll have 40 yard judgements, however I'm not sure that judgements will do enough damage to justify it.
I saw a post or two about this. I'm interested in seeing how it goes but I'm not interested in grinding BG's to see if it works with gear :)
Maybe I'll go take another look tonight and see how much honor my guys have.
Hmmmm, Shockadin, didn't someone already try them in BGs ? Insane surivial, but lack firepower to kill. It seems a little goofy to me. I have to test the firepower to decide. But we don't need the DK anymore, don't we, if we go holy. We become a gimped shaman team with better healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zappy
I like it Zappy.
Have been thinking of this composition for a while, then reading of the Cataclysm changes kind of unmotivated me to try the team.
You get a team with a massive amount of healing, which makes them rather hard to kill.
I especially like getting cleanse again on the pally team.
A shock spec is also more ranged, or less vulnerable to being kited by a frost mage or whatever.
Not sure if they have enough sustained DPS or burst, with this spec but that remains to be seen.
I'm still up in the air on it. My druid healer for my alliance shammys suggested that I give it a try. He's not decked out in gear by any means and showed me some recount data from a heroic where he was seeing 4-5k dps *and* keeping the tank up. Couple that with some good gear and multiply it by 4, and it may just be interesting.
There is obviously a lot of theorycrafting at this point. After watching a few videos of some decent 4.0.1 shockadins dueling - mage, warrior, shadow priest, and you'll learn the shockadin is all about burst damage -- Holy Shock and Exorcism spam, and they never seem to run out of mana.
If I recall, i never sold my quel'delars after hitting 1800, so I should be able to change them in for the spell one, and buy the healing shield (only 70 honor points). I figured I'll reforge all my ret gear to have intellect on them to give it a try, then if it seems viable at all, I may just starting grinding for the gear on them as I don't really have that much else to do until cataclysm.
One thing that should be nice is that I can't imagine heroics would be that difficult on this team with so much survivability, and if they can pull off that much dps, I'll truely be impressed.
As far as the DK, tough to say for sure - Getting necrotic strike @ 83 for the MS debuff will be nice, plus I like the idea of having my tank level with my paladins. I can't decide between frost or unholy for my DK at this point. Unholy still seems to do some insane damage.
Time will tell if this spec will be viable or not.
This seems very interesting so far. Basically, I'm wearing 1800 ret gear on my paladins and I'm respec'd for shockadins. After some basic macro tweaking for a 1 button DPS spam, i am able to achieve 3.5k DPS:
http://www.garysdecks.com/WoW/Shockadin1.jpg
Now mind you... In full ret gear, buffed up, I have 118 spell power. LOL. I'm gonna have some more fun with this tonight, but I think I may have to farm a quick 219 wep for each of them, reforge them and see what I can get.
I was able to sell back my 1800 Ret weapons. I'm kind of hesitant to grind honor on these guys just for a test, but... What else am I going to do with my time between here and there?
Edit:
I bought the 1800 caster mace+shield and the WG shoulders/back. The rest of their gear is Relentless/Wrathful Ret gear. With a one-button spam I was up to about 3500dps before running out of mana, which happened pretty fast (only 10k mana).
I'm going to try some BG's and see how it feels.
I'm totally up in the air on this one. After flying around to the various rep vendors, I picked up a lot of rep gear, traded my ashen verdict ring among a few other things... I haven't socketed or enchanted yet, however, my DPS actually went down to around 2500 - this is with about 1k SP and 16k mana.
The interesting part is that I ran a few heroics and found it much easier than straight rets. Rets are quicker, however keeping people healed and topped off was now easier than ever.
So the real question is if they get their SP up, what kind of dps are they capable of doing.
I thought we already came to the conclusion that 4-5 individual healers had better survival as a team than 1 boxer.
Multi-boxing simply offers the increased coordination to making 100% -0% possible on a kill target, and easier.
It's not about 4 holy paladins running around and healing your DK to outlast the opponents. The last I remember about someone trying 4-5 healers was with a bunch of trees that could last forever, but could never kill anything.
The question is more about how much DPS a true shockadin can actually do. There's a lot of posts out there about the return of the shockadin in the 4.0.1 patch. Do a search on "4.0.1 shockadin" and you'll find tons of info. A quick youtube search gives a better idea of what kinda of damage and survivability that they have:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSwsL...ayer_embedded#!
All in all, the true test for the DK/Rets will be @ 85 when HP pools are way up. The problem right now is that level 80 pvp is so stupid and unbalancedis so quick. There's so many classes out there that have the capability of 1-2 shotting people right now.
Now that DeathWing is ready to start changing the world, I may just give up on attempting to make this team work, and just focus on my shammys for world pvp as everybody on the server will likely be heading to any zones that get changed soon. :)
I'm running a DK team up right now. I'm just really interested in how difficult it is to keep your slaves on target and in melee range with IWT?
Just start the team up and try it for yourself. Spam the IWT button and the follow leader button to make slaves not run off into the distance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercbeast
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mercbeast
In PvE play, it is fairly easy.
Press the button once, maybe again if the target moves a bit.
Then do your DPS stuff.
Maybe press it again, when the target moves more.
PvP is exactly the same as PvE, when the target is stationary -- ie, mashing is bad, as it causes your toons to swarm the target and sometimes run off in random directions, particularly when the target dies and you're still mashing IWT.
When the target moves, the mashing of IWT will keep your character close to it.
The circling about the target is confusing and annoying, which is to your advantage.
You will be behind the target for a portion of the time, which negates their chance to dodge, parry or block (at least Players cannot do these against targets behind them).
When swarming a target dummy, my DPS is not higher or lower, so the swarming action isn't a DPS gain/loss because of the movement.
While swarming, you're restricted to instant casts or melee moves, because your movement will break spell casting.
I'm using IS Boxer, and have two mapped keys for IWT.
I have the IWT mapped key, which has a hotkey and sends IWT to all members of my team.
I also have IWT (with an Action Target Group, as the target).
This one has no hotkey and is built into my DPS 1-4 keys.
I have all of my melee toons in this ATG.
I also have a two step mapped key (a toggle, step 1 = on, step 2 = off).
The toggle has a visual message on the active toon's screen.
A simple MELEE IWT ENABLED or MELEE IWT DISABLED.
So I can spam my 1-4 keys, as desired.
And have my melee toons IWT/Spam the target.
Or disable the Melee IWT, and still spam 1-4 but have no IWT presses.
For a DK team...
You have Death Grip.
And you have the Frost Snare.
And you have the same IWT as anyone else.
Not going to be terribly hard to keep someone fairly close, in range.
Has anyone in PTR looked at the rets again now that we can use DS from mana. Just wondering if the extra healing makes much difference?
I guess the DS free heal is better than nothing. But the game maker here is really this
http://wowtal.com/#k=ff3.a7t.paladin.
Look at retribution's "Art of Sacrifice" Talent.
"You cleanse will remove one movement impairing effect if cast on yourself"
If I am not mistaken, this would remove nova/earthbind root etc. As they count as "movement impairing effect"
ZOMG WTF ??!?!Quote:
Originally Posted by remanz
Talk about making hand of freedom useless. This talent is VERY OP! Can't wait for cataclysm Rets, although I can;t see this talent sticking around.
Well, give the freedom to DK, keep cleanse yourself. This is indeed OP because it bypass other debuff (all other magic debuff, walrock dots) on you, It strips the most important snare/root directly.Quote:
Originally Posted by BrothelMeister
Ok, so it's been asked, but I didn't find anyone with a response, Is there a way to track Holy power on slaves? If not then the whole you have X% chance to generate holy power is worthless since you can't know if it procced or not.