Agreed :DQuote:
Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96666#post96 666
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Agreed :DQuote:
Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96666#post96 666
Ok, I've read all the way through here, and I realize this is merely my second post, but I feel I need to respond to your hyperbole.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96666#post96 666
I'm not trying to flame you but this is silly. You're not completely wrong. But mainly, you're just sitting and arguing a set of semantics so you appear better than other people.
Truthfully, it doesn't matter what you think about whether people should be banned or not, it's just your opinion, and your opinion doesn't really count in the grand scheme of things. Blizzard makes the rules, they made the game, they goofed up a boss fight, people saw it was goofed up, some smart people used the goof to their advantage. Big whoop. Blizzard ignored the public forum request for a response (if you would bother to read older posts you would see that) and then moved it to a bug report forum. Classifying it as a bug (not an exploit), they then terminated the goof up by toasting the xp gain. Whoopdeedoo. Nobody was banned, nobody lost credit with Blizzard, Blizzard had obviously screwed up.
Stop trying to lord it over people that somehow you are superior because you choose to spend hours of your life grinding a specific way that is different than their way. Yes, yours is the nice, hard-working time-consuming way. Nobody is arguing with that. Some people prefer to drive 80mph in the 55mph zone. They get tickets. Some people prefer to drive 55mph in the 55mph zone. They don't get tickets. Some people prefer to drive 80mph when the sign says 80mph, and everyone knows it should really be 55mph. So the city ordinance gets passed and the sign gets changed. Doesn't really change anything except the speed limit. You can't give tickets to drivers for doing the stated speed limit in an inconsistently delineated zone.
Exploiting is only against the rules if you're exploiting certain things. You can exploit class imbalances to win in arenas, for example. Suvega's definition is pretty accurate.
Unless you adversely effect the economy or bother other players I doubt you'll get banned. Worst case you get rolled back, and even then I doubt they would unless you find a way to get to 70 in under 24h unrested.
In 2.0 macros pretty much went from 150k xp/hour usefulness to 5k xp/hour usefulness. You could pretty much have had an entire raid macroed to one button back then and would only need to worry about movement. Heals that always target the lowest raid member? Easy, even down ranks for you. Programmed dps cycle that checks for buffs and debuffs that proc and uses cooldowns? You got it. Stop casting if your threat is too high? I think we had this. Someone even had a healer that afk-healed AV by using autofollow for movement and just mashed one button while watching tv or something. So does that mean we shouldn't be discussing macros that work now since blizzard removed them? The only difference here is that one was public.
I'll try this one more time. Some people would consider the use of a 70 to instance boost a lowbie, just such an "interesting tactic". See the similarity? Forget the actual tactics. I realize that thus far Blizzard hasn't taken that stance or they'd have "hot fixed" it. That doesn't change the fact that with their tolerance of instance boosting (or boosting at all) they are at a minimum passively endorsing the tactic. Therefore, those that used Zolo (I never had the chance myself) very easily could have seen it as nothing more than following precedence. Either way is sort of a "cheesey" approach to leveling in that the lowbies do NOTHING and gain levels. Sound like an exploit or an intended game mechanic?Quote:
Finding interesting tactics to get an upperhand in the game (protip: thats the defintion of exploit), is not a recommended hobby when wanting to keep your account.
So, if someone finds an event, instance, mob-set that generates a higher rate of exp than a comparable instance, that's automatically an exploit? That's some stretch considering the policies that are in place.
Ignorance of the details doesn't make it right. Sure, a 70 was used. That doesn't mean that there STILL wasn't an exploit involved.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greythan',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96718#post9 6718]the use of a 70 to instance boost a lowbie, just such an "interesting tactic".[/quote]
It wasn't the mere use of a 70.
The fact that you had to jump through hoops using a specific 70 doing a specific thing on a specific boss to SPECIFICALLY get an unrealistic amount of XP -- that is the exploit.
[quote='Greythan
Like the blues in the CS forum say -- just because you didn't read the rules doesn't mean they don't apply to you.
ANY 70 can speed through normal instances as fast as he/she can to get XP for their friends/lowbies. ANY 70 can rip through quests with their lowbies to try and get them faster quest credit. ANY 70 will hit the instance cap if they do this at a rate that is unrealistic. ANY 70 can use ANY instance to get XP for their lowbies. Certain instances are more efficient for certain classes -- prot pallies excel at SM and warlocks at ZF -- however, you still can't exceed the XP/hour that's determined by the instance cap, no matter HOW fast you are. ANY 70 can NOT "nearly afk" doing it either.
Let me paraphrase this a bit to make a bit more sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Greythan',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96718#post 96718
you: "the use of 5 shaman to PvP is not botting -- it's a multiboxing playstle"
me: "just because you're multiboxing, doesn't mean you aren't also botting. A anti-afk bot connected to 5 multiboxed shaman is still a bot, multiboxed or not."
There are similarities, yes. But the situation around those similiarities is vastly different. One does not exclude the other.
Well, we're into who's going to get the last word in on this as either I'm not understanding you or vice versa.
Would it be reasonable to presume that using the Zolo technique elsewhere in the game would be frowned upon by Blizzard? Yes. Is it black and white as to what level rate using standard game mechanics is acceptable to Blizzard? No.
Is there a similarity between me using my 70 Warlock to boost my crew in SM and another boxer boosing their crew in Zolo? Yes.
So, my problem was not with the general consensus that Blizzard has opined on Zolo, but rather the rather heavy handed way some posters were taking an "I told you so" approach. Anyone who's boosted is "guilty" of circumventing "normal" exp/hour rates. Period. From there its a question of degree and Blizzard has been less than clear on what they find acceptable. (i.e., one booster who has a Pally main has a HUGE leveling advantage over another who might have a rogue main. Pally can clear, what, 6 or more of SM Cath/Armory in one hour while the rogue can do 3?)
i just wanted to say hi...
its done, its over. ... you cant do it any more.
Find another spot and dont post about it, if you want to keep it.
I was going to post my views on this in length but this post seems to sum up the jist of what is really important to take away from all this...Quote:
Originally Posted by 'darkcaster',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96831#po st96831
My name is Pinotnoir.. And I am a Zolo lover. Yes I used him to level from 35-56. Blizzard changed the encounter so it’s done and over with. I really find it funny that all you people are arguing over something that doesn’t exist anymore. Let’s quit all the post about how you think it’s an exploit or you think its fine. Remember the saying about opinions... They are like assholes. We all have them and think everyone else’s stinks. It makes me sad :( reading the forums and seeing all this bickering. Let’s move on because this doesn’t exist anymore.
Cheers, here is to the future.
A) I'm not trying to hold myself high and mighty, all I'm saying is that anyone who was dragging mobs around and instance to exploit a game mechanic to allow for phenominally high xp/hr (4-5x questing rate) probably knew that it wasn't 100% legit. Trying to 'convince' us that you had 'no clue' that this would be nerfed if ever found out, is a bit of a stretch :PQuote:
Originally Posted by 'wererabbit',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96704#po st96704
B) You're analogy is flawed. It is more like the law states that you must not go over speedlimit posted. There is no speedlimit posted so you go 200 mph in a suburb. Law is graciuos enough to not take your drivers license, and instead puts a 25mph sign up.
You can choose at the next suburb with no sign to go 200mph, you might keep your license you might not, however you knew it was risky when you did it.
In the end, you can admit it was shady, or lie to us/yourself to the contrary, but it was not 100% legit.
A nun was driving 3 other nuns. A cop pulls them over. The Cop says to the nun that you are going too slow the speed limit is 55 not 10. The nun says that the sign says 10 (as the nun points to the sign). The cop says that is the route number not the speed limit. The cop then looks in the back seat and see that 3 nun are scared and pale like they seen a ghost. The cop asks the driver why are they like that. The driver says oh we just got off of route 138. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97550#post97 550
So, is this an exploit, or creative use of game mechanic?
http://www.wowhead.com/?quest=1957
What about Baron in Strath--that an exploit too?Quote:
!)(Secret)(Secret)(Secret)(Secret)(!
Always hear about Mage AoEing is the best thing since sliced bread? Never been able to REALLY do it? Now you can! Go to the Dustwallow Marsh to receive this quest, Mana Surges, but be aware you would have to complete the quest to go to Uldaman before you can gain access to Mana Surges. This is a really nifty trick that I have never heard anybody talk about. I just happened to find this out on my own and startd to use it on my mage. With this nifty trick you can gain up to 55,000 xp/hr at level 40-45 easily, and yes, solo. Here's what you do:
1.) Make hundreds of food/drinks.
2.) Accept Mana Surges quest.
3.) Walk outside near the two torches and buff up. (Mage Armor, Dampen Magic, Arcane Intellect, Mana Shield)
3.) DELETE THE QUEST! (This is the most important part.)
4.) The mobs spawn, 2 sets of 2's, 2 sets of 3's, 2 sets of 4's, all the way up to 2 sets of 5's. The mobs will spawn 1-5 seconds after they die. So AS SOON as the mobs die, run away and start resting up for the next set of AoEs.
5.) Your able to AoE these mobs and get as much XP as you possible can, for 10 minutes, then the mobs despawn. After this, go back to step number 2.
Repeat all of the above steps to get some of the best xp in the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sanctume',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97594#post 97594
Easy way to figure this out, ask yourself 2 questions:
1) Did the developers intead for this to happen, or is it a bug?
2) Does it give you a gain over anyone who does not know of this "trick"?
"Exploit" or "Creative use of game mechanics" or "Bug" are all the same thing, just classified in different levels of severity.
You -probably- will never get banned for using these explots / bugs / tricks / etc, however if you find one that is -exceptionally- beneficial, you might want to be careful. S'all I'm saying.
Hell I use http://www.wowhead.com/?item=18284 for every progression raid. Probably isn't spossed to stak with every spirit buff in the game (except mistletoe), but I use it anyways. Obviously this will prob get changed in the future, however the impact is small IMO (10mp5 in a boss encounter).
Now if you find a method to walk through walls to pull to C'Thun (people got banned)
Or to dupe items (Ban)
or to kill same side faction with your totems (small bans)
or wall jumping (ban)
or getting around the starting gate in ZA (ban)
or communicating with people of the opposite faction in game through the use of babelfish (ban if you use it. Developer asked to stop development)
... etc.
If they ban people for using an addon to communicate back and forth with horde, why do you think finding a way to level 5* faster then the other 'shmucks' couldn't?
I think the main difference between that you listed is that power leveling does not hurt the economy, or directly impact other player's gaming experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97627#post97 627
Your spirit buff is not an exploit, it is what it is--a benefit for some negative.
The rest griefs other people's play or a huge impact on the economy.
Easy way to figure this out, ask yourself 2 questions:
1) Did the developers intead for this to happen, or is it a bug?
That's not my job. I pay to play. Given, that it's Blizzard's rules; they can intend things whatever they want.
2) Does it give you a gain over anyone who does not know of this "trick"?
Now that sounds too general. You can apply that to raiding progression because each event has their own tricks. It don't differ with leveling, power leveling, or raiding.
If getting 55k XP an hour solo at 40-45 is an exploit, I'd better stop doing quests!
Just to clarify -- the 55k XP/hour solo is from a quest in Dustwallow that can be abandoned before completion in order to spawn mobs continually for 10 minutes. This is questionable, but not severe (since, as you mention, you can get similar xp/hour from doing quest normally).Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Stabface',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97665#post 97665
The XP you could get from Zolo pre-nerf was much, much higher.
Powerleveling doesn't hurt the economy, but it does hurt the rest of the leveling playerbase when one player uses an exploit to gain experience that is substantially higher than ANY other method. They cannot realistically compete, and while you won't be flooding the market with items, you will be flooding the populace with newly-dinged 70's at a faster rate than anyone else.
This is worthless, you can't honestly say with a straight face that you can't see the difference between exploits and tactics?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Sanctume',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97660#post 97660
Why are you even arguing, other then to convince yourself that dragging mobs around to enable infinite mob spawns, evading mobs, etc to gain a leveling advantage is NOT an exploit.
Stop trying to defend shady activity with arguments that have no factual background.
"That's not my job. I pay to play."
Are you serious? You have to actually think longer then 5 seconds on wether zolo was an exploit or not.... Come on, wake up.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...63073&sid=1#22Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanctume',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97660#post9 7660]1) Did the developers intead for this to happen, or is it a bug?
That's not my job. I pay to play. Given, that it's Blizzard's rules; they can intend things whatever they want.[/quote]
[url]http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=5464367421&postId=53773931287& sid=1#59[/url]
[quote='GM Syndri
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...719563&sid=1#8Quote:
Originally Posted by GM Malkorix
Quote:
Originally Posted by GM Malorix
While I can agree with both points, I think it's beyond reasonable for anyone to think Blizzard would ban you for acting out a readily available game mechanic. Even if we were to assume that Blizzard is against the idea of using "Zolo like encounters" for boosting in this manner, Blizzard, as a company would not want to assume that all players, from this day to the end of days, would know that they even Hot Fixed Zolo. Until the day Blizzard makes the blanket rule "You may not use summoned creatures during an encounter to gain endless experience without moving." then there is nothing that makes it an exploit, or against the rule.
Intended or not this is a function of the game. In all reality, this is no different then a paladin running into the SM Cath, smacking the last boss in the face, then running back quickly to the door, and killing every mob in the zone in less then a minute. The fact is this was a known game mechanic. A party of 5 could have killed skeletons that Zolo summoned until their fingers were numb from playing if they so desired, long before a person used it to boost characters. Even still you can do that. Blizzard attempts to discourage things, not ban them, as such they will most likely continue to discourage more "Zolo like encounters" as well as further continue to discourage boosting in general.
I think we have to come to the realization that this isn't a stand by Blizzard against using encounters like Zolo to your advantage. This is a stand by Blizzard to attempt to further discourage boosting. Boosting is not an intended part of any game to the best of my knowledge. Blizzard has been kind enough not to make it so it's not impossible to boost, just discouraged it. They could easily just make it so any group with a party member X+ level's higher, causes the group to receive next to no XP, and suddenly boosting is over. No one is going to boost a party if they get 3 XP a kill. We should take this for what it is, it's Blizzard tweaking the game so that people have to work to earn their levels, rather then quickly rush through them, not make a policy statement.
**Edit** I'm adding to this because I feel it came out not saying exactly what I wanted. I need to learn brevity.
In no way do I want to sound like I support the use of this type of encounter. I believe that common sense and logic should have said this wasn't an intelligent thing to do, but I stand by it not being an exploit. Blizzard (And any other company) keep their EULA somewhat vague and open to interpretation for the same reason the Constitution is sometimes vague and open to interpretation. Because things change. Blizzard, just like anyone else, can not predict the future. They cannot predict what new and interesting ways people will find to do things, or to break the rules. By leaving the EULA vague something such as the Zolo encounter can just as easily be banned for, as hot fixed. This isn't to say Blizzard would, it's bad business to ban for something 'You' failed to account for, so they attempt to avoid it at all costs. Had the Zolo encounter somehow effected the rest of the world (Say all the skeletons dropped loot, and suddenly you just rained the Auction house with items from it) their decision may have been different. We don't know, we aren't Blizzard, and as such cannot speak for them. When you signed the EULA, you put yourself into a contract, that has only one exit. Quitting the game. If you did not agree with this contract you were offered a refund, their decisions will be final. Your free to break this contract, so long as your willing to pay the penalty (Being banned).
With all this being said, I've put together a very simple flow chart that I believe illustrates how to approach this type of situation.
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3...artcopypy8.jpg
I agree 100% with this flowchart. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Elili',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97755#post977 55
Very nicely done. :)
/thread
all hail the flowchart
I've noticed my ability to think late at night is bad, and I placed a Yes / No in the wrong place. But I guess the idea stands..
Please refer to revised flow chart for all future questions.
http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/3...artcopypy8.jpg
The flowchart says I shouldn't get my mounts at 30.
Running heroics by myself sounds too good to be true too...
Maybe it's just me .. but running heroics by myself is sooo not too good to be true. It's the toughest gameplay I've ever been able to find.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Zaelar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97836#post97 836
lets face it, using a level 70 to run a bunch of toons through any instance is an exploit that they don't currently ban anyone for.
CoH used to level limit the characters to the instance, so a level 10-15 instance would reduce the level 70 to 15 for that instance. No free rides there. Hopefully we won't ever be seeing that type of patch in WoW.
I think this is really what it came down to. That it was relatively easy to set up and the experience rate was extremely fast, which could make it a really popular way to PL groups. After all, they have not forbidden players to powerlevel lower characters through dungeons, including using a paladin or mage to AoE places like Ragefire Chasm or Scarlet Monastery. You can probably clear those dungeons in 2-5 pulls.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Zaelar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=96608#post96 608
I suppose the only other 'exploit' with Zolo was that you were deliberately keeping him alive, deliberately spawning skeletons, and not even killing the skeletons, just allowing them to despawn and provide experience. Whereas in zones like SM you are doing what a normal group would also do-- trying to kill the mobs for experience.
I think we're getting a bit too hung up on the term exploit. My only concern with the Zolo exploit was whether or not Blizzard considered it a ban-worthy offense, and it seems as if they did not. GMs appeared to advise players not to do it, but stopped short of warning them of any adverse consequences. For me, as long as we were not discussing something bannable, I was not concerned. And Blizzard changed it, and that is pretty much that.
Zolo wasn't either since it was a confirmed by a blue. It wasn't supported, but it wasn't an exploit due to the fact that Blizzard themselves said "we're not going to ban anyone over this, but don't expect us to help you".Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Catamer',index.php?page=Thread&postID=97999#post9 7999
Now that Zolo is nerfed, it's no longer "safe" to assume that finding a way to "fix" it such that the now-exploit works again, or doing a similar thing to another boss with a similar mechanic, would prevent you from getting banned.
Boosting with a 70 is still penalized by the instance reset cap per hour, and XP decay mechanics (for grouping with a much higher level). You also go in and out of combat appropriately, which decays your durability, forcing you to have to leave to repair. Granted, being hit by mobs also decays your durability, but going in and out of combat frequently accellerates the process.