The Banned thread

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Originally Posted by MiRai

Unless of course they're using multiple computers where multiple windows can stay in focus, and you can control both with the same keyboard by moving just your mouse between the computers.

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Just like you can move your mouse between windows with a certain isboxer setup that's legal? ;)

TY for proving my point.

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If it's so well established and such a big "NOAP" (as you put it), then how come it has only become a concern 8 years later? CCP had stated many, many times in those 8 years that ISBoxer was allowed, but if it was doing things that fell into a category as extreme as the "NOAP" category (I have to assume that because it's in quotes, capitalized, and spelled incorrectly that it must be an extreme category) then why did it take almost a decade for them to get around to actioning people for using it?

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CCP has banned all sorts of stuff in between, from macros, to the very thing I pointed out in my example - Bacon.

I don't know why CCP took as long as they did to ban these features of isboxer, but they have - as they should. Your point here has absolutely nothing to do with the relevant discussion.

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You have nothing to back that statement up with. Please show me the excerpt from CCP's EULA which states what you claim, and I'll ask that you not twist some general statement into your own statement for your convenience. You are very adamant that you're correct, so we're going to need some hard evidence and not your interpretation of a general statement from within the EULA.

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I pointed out Bacon specifically. You seem to have issues with reading things when posted. Claiming "nothing" when I specifically cite a source is a very bad way of going about a debate. Re-read above if you need to. Arguing that it took CCP a while to notice one particular thing while they banned all sorts of other stuff (again, lemme list the example of Bacon) does not constitute me not backing a statement up, nor does it have anything to do with the discussion at present.

Don't strawman (or w/e other :shenanigans: - I can't be bothered to debate over THAT) in this discussion please, it doesn't speak well of you.

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And what evidence is that? The only thing I see is you just spouting words and claiming they're facts because you believe them to be so. You've convinced yourself that you've figured it out even though you don't actually have anything beyond your own speculation and assumptions to back up anything that you claim in your last post.

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Read above, this isn't worth responding to beyond these words.

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It's a fact that CCP has not given you, or any of us, any information on what they're "logging," or even looking for, so for you to claim that you know otherwise is complete ignorance.

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Well, no. They gave us all the same thing - you're the one trying to argue that something which is clearly 2 actions is magically one. Re-read things again if you need to understand, or re-read what I've already posted if you'd like someone to lay it out to you.

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That is untrue, as well.

Everything you've said so far, and every claim you seem to be making is based off of the incredibly small sample size which is this forum, and this forum alone, since not a single player up to this point has posted on the ISBoxer forum claiming to have been banned. So looking at the few threads from this forum, there must be less than 20 (maybe 30) people who have actively participated in these discussions... and this is your sample size for a game with a very large multiboxing playerbase?

If the evidence speaks for itself, then show it to us and let it speak because during this dark time, EVE multiboxers need factual evidence more than ever. What they don't need are your assumptions, or opinions, which you're trying to pass off as fact, and there is a very large difference between saying, "I have factual evidence," and, "This is what I believe." If you have facts that you can provide links to, then I ask that you present the information, for you cannot cite yourself and expect others to believe what you're saying -- This isn't religion, or politics, this is a multiboxing forum where we value actual facts.

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I'm not sure if this is your first time "friendly" debating, but usually you actually provide your own evidence to back up statements, rather than trying for the "never mind me, you're wrong BECAUSE I SAY SO."

Your response had absolutely nothing in the way of evidence to back up your points, beyond validating my original point in your very first response. Let's not sensationalize things, and instead use (very simple) logic to reason here.

Provide me evidence that disproves any of what I said and/or my evidence, and then you may attempt to make a statement of this substance again. You can't claim that anything I've said is wrong while having absolutely zero evidence or backing logic to what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Lax

No. It sounds like you're using DxNothing and putting your Video FX Viewers in that, right? You have to click to first focus the DxNothing window because in your Window Layout you have not ticked the "Focus follows mouse" box :)

... now back to your regularly scheduled riff raff.

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Riff raffing away o7

Thanks for the DX and VFX help lax, i havent opened isboxer and eve together for a while now, will look into it

Going to stick my head into the cockfight

It has gone way past the merits of isboxer, but i think what Lord is trying to say is the act of swapping focus is also construed as an action, as it is not something we are able to do without the use of isboxer

I.e. there is no ingame keybind to send commands to other clients

So if i was to focus on client X, and press f1,f2,f3, and have each of those keys, send f1 - to clients 1, client 2, client 3...etc, while i am focused on window X, this is the order of events

Press F1 > focus to client 1 (since otherwise you cannot send clients there) > send f1 to client 1 > Have client X as the focus without technically swapping positions

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Originally Posted by LordsServant

Just like you can move your mouse between windows with a certain isboxer setup that's legal? ;)

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Umm it's built into Windows......

Control Panel->Ease of Access->Change How Your Mouse Works->Activate a window by hovering over it with the mouse

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Originally Posted by thedevilyouknow

Have client X as the focus without technically swapping positions

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Actually you can do this in Windows too with a couple of registry settings. It is Focus Follows Mouse (like the activate a window by hovering), but without bringing the window to the front.

You need to set the bitmask for Active Window Tracking and Active Window Tracking Z Order as detailed here https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../cc957204.aspx
If you want to speed up the Active Window Tracking to be faster, you can set the ActiveWndTrkTimeout https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../cc957203.aspx

You end up with the ability to have a window receive input without it being the "active" or topmost window as per the usual setup in Windows.

This would allow you to arrange your windows in such a way that you could simply roll your mouse around over the windows pressing the F1 key, all without changing the layout. Not quite as fancy as Video FX, but it's pretty damn close, and if you have 6 screens and 6 clients (or just a 4K screen) you could be quite effective with nothing but Windows and EVE, and be much faster than an ALT+TABer.


Also, I recommend you press ALT+ESC rather than ALT+TAB, as it will cycle through Windows in the order they were opened, whereas ALT+TAB uses a MRU order. Cycling through in a known order is much more useful than in the MRU order

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Originally Posted by mbox_bob

Umm it's built into Windows......

Control Panel->Ease of Access->Change How Your Mouse Works->Activate a window by hovering over it with the mouse



Actually you can do this in Windows too with a couple of registry settings. It is Focus Follows Mouse (like the activate a window by hovering), but without bringing the window to the front.

You need to set the bitmask for Active Window Tracking and Active Window Tracking Z Order as detailed here https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../cc957204.aspx
If you want to speed up the Active Window Tracking to be faster, you can set the ActiveWndTrkTimeout https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../cc957203.aspx

You end up with the ability to have a window receive input without it being the "active" or topmost window as per the usual setup in Windows.

This would allow you to arrange your windows in such a way that you could simply roll your mouse around over the windows pressing the F1 key, all without changing the layout. Not quite as fancy as Video FX, but it's pretty damn close, and if you have 6 screens and 6 clients (or just a 4K screen) you could be quite effective with nothing but Windows and EVE, and be much faster than an ALT+TABer.


Also, I recommend you press ALT+ESC rather than ALT+TAB, as it will cycle through Windows in the order they were opened, whereas ALT+TAB uses a MRU order. Cycling through in a known order is much more useful than in the MRU order

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That is quite cool

The only thing i can imagine ccp doing is labeling windows as a third party program :D

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Originally Posted by LordsServant

Just like you can move your mouse between windows with a certain isboxer setup that's legal? ;)

TY for proving my point.

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As it's been pointed out, the functionality is built into Windows, so any vanilla player can use this feature if they wish.

But other than that, it would seem you don't have any proof. Saying "see: Bacon back in 2007 or something, along with many others" is on par with saying "Google it," and from the sound of it ("or something" and "along with many others"), it would seem like you don't even know what I'm supposed to be Googling. When you make the original claim the burden of proof falls upon you, and it doesn't fall upon anyone else to disprove something which cannot be proved in the first place -- I don't understand how you don't understand this concept. How can there be a debate of anything (which is a complete waste of time anyway since no one here has the real information) when you haven't brought anything to the table except your own speculation? You say that swapping windows is interpreted by CCP as an action, and I say it isn't, so I'm asking you to prove it.

I never said you were wrong, but I said you have no proof and you still haven't provided any, so I'll make this easy...

Please provide proof of your claim(s), other than your own belief, that CCP is interpreting what you consider to be a window focus action as a second action being sent to a game client, and then actioning players based upon that.

I don't know if you noticed...since its been said a few times...but CCP is not really abiding by the 1 action rule anymore....

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Originally Posted by thedevilyouknow

That is quite cool

The only thing i can imagine ccp doing is labeling windows as a third party program :D

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"Third party program" only means "made by a third party", which in this case is to say, not CCP. So yes, Windows is quite literally a third party program and nobody should argue otherwise. ;)

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Originally Posted by MiRai

As it's been pointed out, the functionality is built into Windows, so any vanilla player can use this feature if they wish.

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Yes, any player can move their mouse. JUST. LIKE. IN. LEGAL (NOT illegal, LEGAL). ISBOXER. SETUPS. This has been established for the third time now in just the last few responses?

I'm really not one for insulting people, but how thick do you have to be to not get that moving your mouse to swap window focus is an action?

F1 --> Move Mouse --> F1.

Not F1 --> F1. This is a VERY simple concept.

You have now acknowledged my point for the second time.

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But other than that, it would seem you don't have any proof. Saying "see: Bacon back in 2007 or something, along with many others" is on par with saying "Google it," and from the sound of it ("or something" and "along with many others"), it would seem like you don't even know what I'm supposed to be Googling. When you make the original claim the burden of proof falls upon you, and it doesn't fall upon anyone else to disprove something which cannot be proved in the first place -- I don't understand how you don't understand this concept. How can there be a debate of anything (which is a complete waste of time anyway since no one here has the real information) when you haven't brought anything to the table except your own speculation? You say that swapping windows is interpreted by CCP as an action, and I say it isn't, so I'm asking you to prove it.

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http://bit.ly/1zOuGmh

http://bit.ly/1zOuQdh

http://bit.ly/1zOuyTL

http://bit.ly/1BKNrN8

http://bit.ly/1BKNE2O

http://bit.ly/1BKNHM5

http://bit.ly/1BKO6xX

Literally just woke up and I think of all of those off the top of my head. Click any one, and even if you have a noscript or w/e and that doesn't automatically open the link for you, any of the top 5 or simply reading the results should be quite simple to look through.

Also, if you're brave enough or if there's an FHC link on there, that might be rather enlightening as well. I was in the alliance(s) in question during several of the monkeysphere / python injection / broken api things, and also was in certain command channels where I directly witnessed russians talking about, and using some "binary thing" to gain entrance to POS forcefields. I don't think anyone was ever banned from that, and Raiden. (the alliance I was in) never used it ourselves; White Noise (our close RusRus allies) were the ones doing it.

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I never said you were wrong, but I said you have no proof and you still haven't provided any, so I'll make this easy...

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See above, now provide your own proof or stop wasting my/everyone's time with crazy conspiracy theories.

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Please provide proof of your claim(s), other than your own belief, that CCP is interpreting what you consider to be a window focus action as a second action being sent to a game client, and then actioning players based upon that.

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We've gone over (several times now) how swapping window focus is absolutely a thing. People have banned for breaking the 1 input 1 output rule several times.

Pretty damn simple - unless YOU can provide evidence otherwise. Go find some.

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Originally Posted by mbox_bob

Umm it's built into Windows......

Control Panel->Ease of Access->Change How Your Mouse Works->Activate a window by hovering over it with the mouse



Actually you can do this in Windows too with a couple of registry settings. It is Focus Follows Mouse (like the activate a window by hovering), but without bringing the window to the front.

You need to set the bitmask for Active Window Tracking and Active Window Tracking Z Order as detailed here https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../cc957204.aspx
If you want to speed up the Active Window Tracking to be faster, you can set the ActiveWndTrkTimeout https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/.../cc957203.aspx

You end up with the ability to have a window receive input without it being the "active" or topmost window as per the usual setup in Windows.

This would allow you to arrange your windows in such a way that you could simply roll your mouse around over the windows pressing the F1 key, all without changing the layout. Not quite as fancy as Video FX, but it's pretty damn close, and if you have 6 screens and 6 clients (or just a 4K screen) you could be quite effective with nothing but Windows and EVE, and be much faster than an ALT+TABer.


Also, I recommend you press ALT+ESC rather than ALT+TAB, as it will cycle through Windows in the order they were opened, whereas ALT+TAB uses a MRU order. Cycling through in a known order is much more useful than in the MRU order

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Yes, and I was saying this is perfectly legal for that reason. My legal isboxer setup works just like this.

You quoted me as saying specifically that it is legal.

That wasn't sarcasm. What is illegal is sending button presses/actions to OTHER windows without first swapping window focus - such as moving your mouse.

F1 (to eve client #1) --> Mouse Mouse to swap window focus --> F1 (to eve client #2).

Versus F1 (to eve client #1) --> F1 (to eve client #2).

There is zero mouse movement or anything at all to swap window focus. Whether you're running 2 eve clients on 1 computer, or 1 eve client each on 2 computers, you need to somehow swap focus between the two if you're using the same keyboard.

You are welcome to setup 2 different keyboards and hit f1 with one hand each on different computers as well.

Mirai is just being silly at this point, as is anyone who is trying to debate this simple concept. :)

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I'm really not one for insulting people, but how thick do you have to be to not get that moving your mouse to swap window focus is an action?

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Of course no one is arguing with you that it is an action. It is however not a GAME action, it is an OS action. CCP should not care about how many windows you mouse over, or hotspots, or elements, or how many times you got up to go to the loo, all they should care about is the action you do that generates actions inside their game.