Big nerfs on Demo Shout on Warriors

[Kojiiko]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/demoralizing-shout-is-bugged-and-it-is-why-we-have-this-aoe-meta/295678/64


Hi All,
We have identified a fix for an issue that was causing Demoralizing Shout/Roar to generate too much threat when applied to multiple enemies. In addition, we’ve also identified a fix for a separate issue that was causing Battle Shout and most healing spells, effects, and buffs to incorrectly split the threat they generate between enemies that had members of the buffed party on their threat list.
Hotfixes for these issues are going to be deployed very soon, at which time all of these effects will match their functionality in the 1.12 reference client.


So will be rerolling for a mage or a lock instead of the warrior?

[Mercbeast]

Don't wanna jump the gun, but I believe they've already pushed it. Demo isn't generating really any threat for me now, battleshout is. So, ymmv but, you might wanna swap your warrior tanks over to primarily spamming battleshout instead of demo.

[Kojiiko]

Don't wanna jump the gun, but I believe they've already pushed it. Demo isn't generating really any threat for me now, battleshout is. So, ymmv but, you might wanna swap your warrior tanks over to primarily spamming battleshout instead of demo.

Ill contiune with the combo and even just make to 35 i can just create them alchemist and tailroing alts we shall see....

[Sheiken]

I can confirm that my team of Warrior, Priest and 3x mage has alot more difficulty in RFC compared to last night doing AE spam. I am using Demo shout as threat generator and today i cant hold AOE aggro for shit with my warrior.. Sad day for my comp and might have to look at either stick to single pulling or another comp. :(

[Andreauk]

Try a Druid tank if you ever swap - I went to farm Deadmines trash at 15 and it kept aggro off my x3 Mages and heal Priest.

[Apatheist]

The ease with which people were holding threat on their warriors seemed wrong to me from the start.

Warrior spamming demo/battle should be enough to gain initial agro and keep mobs off healers and light DPS. It shouldn't be enough by itself to out-TPS full AE DPS spam.

This is why stacking consumables and buffs like ret aura/fire shield was so important for generating high AE TPS.

[Drakhoun]

I use single pull when mobs are yellow. When mobs are green, warrior just runs in and get initial aggro and mages spam AE. Priest spams flash heals.

[MTSkibum]

Bummer that they nerfed it before i was high enough level to abuse it.

[Mercbeast]

The ease with which people were holding threat on their warriors seemed wrong to me from the start.

Warrior spamming demo/battle should be enough to gain initial agro and keep mobs off healers and light DPS. It shouldn't be enough by itself to out-TPS full AE DPS spam.

This is why stacking consumables and buffs like ret aura/fire shield was so important for generating high AE TPS.

The issue is, this is actually how it was in classic at this point.

The other issue is, they are targeting this "fix" as a way to fix the "aoe meta", but it just demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what is happening. This is only going to push people towards mage based aoe even more. The best/most efficient groups were already 3 or 4 mages, with 1 warlock and a healer. Now, threat generation is even more difficult for warriors, which makes them even less desirable, so, if groups were already NOT taking tanks when they could generate threat, why would they take tanks at all now when they can't, and they are not needed?

[Kraxx]

Give blizzard some more weeks and we will see some more hidden class balancing "fixes"
In 6months druids will be meta tank^^

all vanilla versions are equal but some vanilla versions are more equal than others

[Apatheist]

In addition, we’ve also identified a fix for a separate issue that was causing Battle Shout and most healing spells, effects, and buffs to incorrectly split the threat they generate between enemies that had members of the buffed party on their threat list.

This point is a bit vague. Does this mean battle shout post-fix is doing more or less TPS?

[Lewsifur]

So how long did ‘Classic’ remain classic, before they updated it to the retail, ‘play our way’ philosophy, :p

[Mercbeast]

They nerfed raid grinding like a week and a half ago :)

[Mercbeast]

I don't mind there being class "balancing" down the road, but fundamentally changing elements of the game because it was unintended is annoying. Raid grinding was a thing, it wasn't abused at launch because people didn't even consider it, but then it became a thing in the relaunch and they removed it as a viable alternative.

[Kruschpakx4]

guess whos's laughing with shaman tank now xD (jk its bad at aoe aswell)

i suppose you can just skip the tank and add another mage or 2 healer 3 mage somthing like that

[Kojiiko]

guess whos's laughing with shaman tank now xD (jk its bad at aoe aswell)

i suppose you can just skip the tank and add another mage or 2 healer 3 mage somthing like that

Been reading on isboxer discord today, the flavor of the week seems to be dump the warrior and go with mage ;) so 4 mages and 1 priest

[smk]

I am currently running 3 war 1 pally and 1 priest, the pally ret. aura is up, i respecced heavy into tanking tree for tanking warrior and so far its working. I am tossing up the idea of lvling up my druid to replace my warrior as my tank, im not sure yet.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Been reading on isboxer discord today, the flavor of the week seems to be dump the warrior and go with mage ;) so 4 mages and 1 priest
Which is why some of us caution against putting all your eggs in one basket by chasing FOTM setups. ;)

[Hardcore Scape]

This point is a bit vague. Does this mean battle shout post-fix is doing more or less TPS?

It's the same threat, it's just equally split between all mobs aggroed now. Some mobs must of been getting slightly more of the split threat from BS and healing.

[Drakhoun]

Been reading on isboxer discord today, the flavor of the week seems to be dump the warrior and go with mage ;) so 4 mages and 1 priest

Are the 4 mages teams end dungeon viable? Can the clothies clear bosses without a tank?

[Fuzzyboy]

Are the 4 mages teams end dungeon viable? Can the clothies clear bosses without a tank?

That's what I'm wondering as well. Quite curious to see how 4 mage + priest / 4 locks + priest will be doing in end game dungeons.

[luxlunae]

Give blizzard some more weeks and we will see some more hidden class balancing "fixes"
In 6months druids will be meta tank^^

all vanilla versions are equal but some vanilla versions are more equal than others

I'm also nervous about their desire to fix things. Their desire to fix things is what watered down retail into milquetoast blah.

[Kojiiko]

Are the 4 mages teams end dungeon viable? Can the clothies clear bosses without a tank?


I7ve only seem them up to level 54 and 57 at the moment, they are just questing and grinding dungeons,, most ppl just doing for the extra lootz gfrind on 5 toons and then make one of them there 60 to do raids with guildes

[rosuto]

I don't mind. It was a bug. Demo never provided that much threat in Vanilla or on Pservers. You'd usually have a DPS warrior keep up Demo because it's not worth the tank's rage.

[Hardcore Scape]

I don't mind. It was a bug. Demo never provided that much threat in Vanilla or on Pservers. You'd usually have a DPS warrior keep up Demo because it's not worth the tank's rage.

On single target yea. Look at skarms aoe warrior video. He spams demo on p server.

[Vipeax]

I7ve only seem them up to level 54 and 57 at the moment, they are just questing and grinding dungeons,, most ppl just doing for the extra lootz gfrind on 5 toons and then make one of them there 60 to do raids with guildes
I have been 60 for a week now...

MMMMP struggles with UBRS (you need tanks), Timmy in Stratholme and Razorgore.

[Apatheist]

On single target yea. Look at skarms aoe warrior video. He spams demo on p server.

Most of his threat in those videos is coming from the combined TPS caused by consumables, buffs and items like thunderfury/force reactive disk though. Ret aura, thorns, shield spikes, dragonbreath chili, etc. Demoralizing shout never caused enough threat to hold agro by itself.

To the people saying Blizzard are "nerfing" things -- this is incorrect. They're fixing errors that weren't working correctly to begin with based on their reference server. Raid experience was being calculated incorrectly. Demo shout threat was being calculated incorrectly. These are fixes, not nerfs.

If you've already started a team with a warrior tank and you're otherwise happy with it, don't reroll because of these changes. Once you have access to some of the higher level gear and the right consumables your AE TPS will be higher than it was spamming demo shout pre-fix.

[smk]

I have been 60 for a week now...

MMMMP struggles with UBRS (you need tanks), Timmy in Stratholme and Razorgore.

Would you pick a paladin or a druid to tank for your team?

[nodoze]

Would you pick a paladin or a druid to tank for your team?For most dungeon focused parties Paladin is the best Tank choice unless other goals conflict (like you want Horde, want to main a Warrior or Druid, want to also Raid Tank & not just Dungeon Tank, etc).

Paladin has the best AoE threat just relying on built in tools for both pushing AoE threat on an unlimited number of mobs & reducing the Threat of the party. Paladin Tanks can also cleanse the most debuffs, off-heal, protect a party member, sacrifice self to prevent a full wipe, and rez the normal rezzer.

Yes Warriors can add lots of AoE threat via itemization & consumables but then again Paladins can also add those items/consumables (on top of their built in tools).

[Hardcore Scape]

For most dungeon focused parties Paladin is the best Tank choice unless other goals conflict (like you want Horde, want to main a Warrior or Druid, want to also Raid Tank & not just Dungeon Tank, etc).

Paladin has the best AoE threat just relying on built in tools for both pushing AoE threat on an unlimited number of mobs & reducing the Threat of the party. Paladin Tanks can also cleanse the most debuffs, off-heal, protect a party member, sacrifice self to prevent a full wipe, and rez the normal rezzer.

Yes Warriors can add lots of AoE threat via itemization & consumables but then again Paladins can also add those items/consumables (on top of their built in tools).

that's true and all up until 60, but at 60 it's going to be important to have the survivability of a warrior in some of these higher level dungeons.

[Hardcore Scape]

Most of his threat in those videos is coming from the combined TPS caused by consumables, buffs and items like thunderfury/force reactive disk though. Ret aura, thorns, shield spikes, dragonbreath chili, etc. Demoralizing shout never caused enough threat to hold agro by itself.

To the people saying Blizzard are "nerfing" things -- this is incorrect. They're fixing errors that weren't working correctly to begin with based on their reference server. Raid experience was being calculated incorrectly. Demo shout threat was being calculated incorrectly. These are fixes, not nerfs.

If you've already started a team with a warrior tank and you're otherwise happy with it, don't reroll because of these changes. Once you have access to some of the higher level gear and the right consumables your AE TPS will be higher than it was spamming demo shout pre-fix.

Just correcting him, he claims no one ever spammed demo shout for threat and he is just plain wrong. When the pulls are big, it is still way worth it. I am still able to do it post nerf, no extra hit threat. I don't think a lot of the stuff in his video will work, I have already seen some stuff take prio over thorns for example, and then thorns has no effect.

[Apatheist]

Just correcting him, he claims no one ever spammed demo shout for threat and he is just plain wrong. When the pulls are big, it is still way worth it. I am still able to do it post nerf, no extra hit threat. I don't think a lot of the stuff in his video will work, I have already seen some stuff take prio over thorns for example, and then thorns has no effect.

If you're talking about fiery shield (warlock imp skill) -- it doesn't stack with thorns. Thorns should stack with ret aura, shield spikes, consumables, etc. though. If it doesn't it's a bug and should be reported.

[rosuto]

Just correcting him, he claims no one ever spammed demo shout for threat and he is just plain wrong. When the pulls are big, it is still way worth it. I am still able to do it post nerf, no extra hit threat. I don't think a lot of the stuff in his video will work, I have already seen some stuff take prio over thorns for example, and then thorns has no effect.
I mean, I never claimed that, but OK.


I'll extrapolate a bit. "Demo never provided that much threat in Vanilla or on Pservers", I don't think you're arguing with that part of my statement (43 at max rank). The issue is the last part of my comment correct? Let me clarify, there are situations where Demo is good, when pulling very large groups for example. I never said Demo Shout is never used, but that typically it isn't worth it. (Pulling 30+ mobs in Tier 3 with 10 consumables and Thunderfury is not a common situation).

Battle Shout max rank generates 70 threat per target in combat being buffed, including pets. Lets say X is numbers of people buffed you're a WLMMP that's 6. Y is the number of enemies. If Y is more than 10, Demo Shout is better, but if Y is less than 10, Battle Shout is better as Demo is a static 43 buffed to 64 from Defensive Stance and Defiance. If there is no pet involved, it becomes 8 enemies.

(70 * 1.3 * 1.15 * X)/Y

[Apatheist]

The issue is, this is actually how it was in classic at this point.

The other issue is, they are targeting this "fix" as a way to fix the "aoe meta", but it just demonstrates a total lack of understanding of what is happening. This is only going to push people towards mage based aoe even more. The best/most efficient groups were already 3 or 4 mages, with 1 warlock and a healer. Now, threat generation is even more difficult for warriors, which makes them even less desirable, so, if groups were already NOT taking tanks when they could generate threat, why would they take tanks at all now when they can't, and they are not needed?

Demo/battle shout threat were never enough to hold agro by themselves during vanilla. You used them as tools to grab initial threat away from healers and then as supplemental threat while all of your reactive buffs/items caused threat. Most of warriors AE threat comes from items like force reactive disk, thorns, ret aura, etc.

Tanks were never needed for 15-55 content. A "tank" while leveling was just somebody who had enough armor to survive. Nobody I knew actually spec'd for tanking until 60. The only difference is people are better players now and understand how to abuse mages ability to AE and kite large groups because that's standard practice in most retail dungeons since Wrath.

Anyway, the point is the point is that all the doomsayers crying that Blizzard is RUINING CLASSIC!!1™ are being silly. The change was made to correct an error and bring the threat value of shouts in line with their classic reference client. It's more classic now than it was before. If you're a no changes guy (as I am) then this is a good fix.