Generalisations in postings

[Draku]

People,

I keep reading that one of the 'cons' of using free tools is lack of support


If you want to try multiboxing with something free, be prepared to put a significant amount of setup into it, and have little to no developer support when you have problems. You get what you pay for.

I sort of feel the need to draw attention to the fact that users of HotKeyNet get an unbelievably high level of support. Not only does Freddie provide almost immediate help with configs, resolution of bugs, he also deals with requests for new features very rapidly (and robustly)

I didnt like the lack of trial/licensing policy so I found something else which I am very happy with. I certainly do not have to put up with lack of support

Regards,

[Poolboy]

Majority of software boxers use Keyclone I assume, therefore... majority of discussion around here is Keyclone related?

Why lately do the folks using stuff other than KC seem to be getting their backs up a little over what appears to be a lack of facetime?

I don't mean to be inflammatory in the least, honestly. I am sure this will spark big discussion. I use Keyclone myself, and as I said, I would bet my accounts that the majority of visitors here who software box do also. Nobody has ever said, that I can see, the other options are not viable.

The facts are though, that 99.9999999% of rob's users report near total satisfaction. Loudly. The folks who live on these boards happen to be chatty, and we love to give props to his awesome work.

He_Who_Never_Sleeps himself is around here a lot as well, and of course when somebody comes in off the street he'll steer them towards his product.

It just seems to me that if more people used the other options, and they were more active in their discussions the weight of this forum would naturally shift. But they don't I'm guessing... so the weight is naturally right where it belongs for now?

I'd hate to see Keyclone discussion handcuffed in order to appease the other lesser used apps and their users.

Edittuhd fer spulling.

[Draku]

Many apologies, my post must have been misleading.




Why lately do the folks using stuff other than KC seem to be getting their backs up a little over what appears to be a lack of facetime?

I wasn't complaining about lack of facetime, more about an unfair criticism of an alternative product.


I am sure this will spark big discussion.

I hope not


I'd hate to see Keyclone discussion handcuffed in order to appease the other lesser used apps and their users.

I wasn't suggesting we handcuff anyone, only that when providing props for Keyclone, we did not unfairly diss other apps.

Apologies again.........I am sure Keyclone is great......I am not sure that long drawn out discussions as to the licensing/charging policy is useful It is these threads I was suggesting that we stopped.......

[Khazrael]

Perhaps we need a sticky that describes why Keyclone charges and why there is no trial.That seems like a bold statement to make, in my opinion. keyclone wrote the software, he charges for whatever reasons he decides to charge, and quite frankly owes no explanation to anybody for it. He's written a quality app, and gives quality service, regardless of if other programs do the same, it doesn't make him any less within his rights to charge a fee for his work.

I can't speak to the quality of the other apps you list, and I don't doubt that they are quality and have quality service, but that's their decision to do so. If they wish to give their time out for free, that's up to them, but it doesn't mean keyclone should have to do the same. When brought into the scope of the general costs of multiboxing, $20.00 is insignifigantly small, and quite frankly, I for one, am glad to give him back something for his work since it is such a great app rather than hoping I can just get a free ride and free support.

[Draku]

Argh.......I am sorry....no disprect to Keyclone meant AT ALL. I have edited my post to remove the suggestion of the Sticky.

Now...PLEASE.....All I am asking is that people take more care when commenting on the alternatives to Keyclone.

[Djarid]

Don't Worry Draku, I read it as you intended (I think).

I think most people consider AHK to be the free alternative, forgetting about Octopus and HotKeyNet both of which seem to get reasonable support (I have no first hand experience of either).

I have used AHK and keyclone and must say that the difference in ease of use and support is remarkable and may be why people who have gone the same route as me list the lack of support as a con.

[Draku]

Did I miss any? :P :D

DOH!!!! is this a joke?

Let me help

HotKeyNet - Free Software, Top Class Support, few users for WoW (or so it seems). Works Vista/XP . Robust, Very functional. Feels very lightweight in a good way Not enough documentation on how to use with games (eg WoW) However if you are looking to trial some software for free, I would guess someone could have it up and running with a basic setup in under 2 hours. (Obviously depends on person)

I use it extensively with 4 and 5boxing using 4 machines and 5 monitors (2xp and 2 vista) I have more than 100 keys that are setup handling movement (for spreading out)/macros/spells bound to keys etc
It has basic window manipulation (Which I don't use) Including (Moving, maximizing, minimizing changing focus etc)

[keyclone]

personally... when it comes to 'free' software that has no ads and no discernible means of income, i'm ALWAYS suspicious.

like "free" anti-virus software. sure, it's free.. and it SAYS it's being nice... but these are development efforts with people that like to eat... somehow they are making money. and in the case of "free" anti-virus.. my guess would be keyloggers, web trackers, or password thieves.

think about it... coding and support will easily take 100+ hrs/month... each month... are you willing to readily do that for free?

and that's why i charge. i don't work for free (well, sometimes... but rarely)... and i highly doubt anyone here would be willing to show up and do 100 hrs/month of work around my house each month... for free. hell, i doubt anyone would wash my car once a week for free.. yet, for some reason, people actually expect me to do that and more. just too funny.

[Draku]

I hoenstly thought that Hotkeynet and autohotkey were the same thing. My bad!

Lol....no problem.....I posted what I thought was a gentle point and ended up in a number of silly interactions......... I guess I am too biased in favour of HKN.......Freddie is a really nice guy who seems to enjoy developing and supporting his program. I took too much umbrage about the fact that a newcomer would assume that if he tried HKN he wouldn't get much support which is not the case. WHatever....I think I have made my point and I am going to fade into the background again.

[keyclone]

However if you are looking to trial some software for free, I would guess someone could have it up and running with a basic setup in under 2 hours ?( hours??!

[Gallo]

However if you are looking to trial some software for free, I would guess someone could have it up and running with a basic setup in under 2 hours?( hours??!Ohhh, no he didn't! :-) Everyone is biased toward the product they like.

[keyclone]

oh come on.. you've prolly seen some of the pings i get for people not being able to get set up within 10-15 minutes of starting

but 2 hours?? :pinch:

[Gallo]

Oh, I certainly agree with you Rob. Keyclone is pretty hassle-free and take minutes to be up and running. (I'd say less than 5 minutes if you've read enough of the forums to be successful on the first installation try).

[elo]

Heh, I'm kinda quirky and actually enjoy AHK but.... I've easily got 8 hours in configuring it in conjunction with my Xkeys and still haven't even mapped my chain heals. Oh, and I'm not broadcasting to another machine, that's all just on the same machine.

To each his/her own

[Gallo]

Heh, I'm kinda quirky and actually enjoy AHK but.... I've easily got 8 hours in configuring it in conjunction with my Xkeys and still haven't even mapped my chain heals. Oh, and I'm not broadcasting to another machine, that's all just on the same machine.

To each his/her own8 hours? Yikes. I originally bought 5 copies of Keyclone at $10 a piece, even though I now only use 1 copy.... and it was well worth it to me to not have the hassle of programming my own keys. I mean damn, putting together MACROS for all the toons is a chore in itself.

[Draku]

Oh dear,,,,,bad draku.....bad draku......I promised I wouldnt post again on this thread.........bad bad bad



personally... when it comes to 'free' software that has no ads and no discernible means of income, i'm ALWAYS suspicious.

And this is your fully informed, 'no-conflict of interest' opinion of course

[keyclone]

it would be the opinion from a 'net citizen for over 20 years (bbs anyone? can you say procomm?)

open source is one thing... and yes, i do build my own copies.. and yes, i look through the source (on the less popular items)

why would anyone put out software, compiled, no source... for free?

and yes, all that free anti-virus software.. you do realize there is a company out there supporting/writing it.. how do they pay their people? chickens? shiny beads? unlikely. and the last i checked, web hits don't pay... unless you have over 1m of them consistently for many months... and the only reason they pay is because someone sees a spot they can put an ad

[Gallo]

BBS! I mentioned the term BBS to a new college grad (granted, I only graduated 5 years ago) and he had no idea what I meant by it. I was on a couple of BBS'es when I first started getting into computers in 1991-ish.

[Draku]

it would be the opinion from a 'net citizen for over 20 years (bbs anyone? can you say procomm?)

WOW!! REALLY? NO SURELY NOT????

Look....You have no idea what Freddie's motivations are......that is my point.... .....what the hell do you mean you are 'suspicious' ? About what ffs!

However you do have financial reasons to sow doubt in peoples mind.

I will tell you what is suspicious..........read my OP........now tell me what you are all so frightened about?

If this forum is about selling Keyclone...then maybe you should make it a bit clearer.....then I could have saved myself some time in finding out like this. (Time I could spend fiddling with my product that is so suspicious)

For what it is worth......people who say I HAVE 20 years experience....normally have 20x1 years experience in my book .........

(Really does fade away now)

[Gallo]

Chill out guys. /end thread.

[keyclone]

yea.. that's it.. 20x1 .. LOL

yes, obviously, i write software and i sell it. (what gave it away?)
for a whole $20 per copy (look out! grand theft!! quick... flog him!)

hell.. i just bought a soda for $1.50 in the company cafe.. and forget a single, one-time use cup of coffee @ starbucks...

on second thought.. you're right.

i should demand starbucks give me free refills.. and whatever different flavor i want.. and it should be free... after all, it's just hot water over beans with some milk & sugar

and the steak house.. i should demand they give me that $20 steak for free! and allow me to give copies to my friends.. for free!

hey, you're right.. this is great! everything would be free! i wouldn't have to pay a dime!

say.. my lawn needs mowing, the windows need cleaning, and the house could use a coat of paint.
when can i expect you over to do it all? free, of course. and of course, you'd supply the paint.. that i select..
and thanks for all those free supplies and labor

this is just awesome!

[Draku]

yea.. that's it.. 20x1 .. LOL

yes, obviously, i write software and i sell it. (what gave it away?)
for a whole $20 per copy (look out! grand theft!! quick... flog him!)

hell.. i just bought a soda for $1.50 in the company cafe.. and forget a single, one-time use cup of coffee @ starbucks...

on second thought.. you're right.

i should demand starbucks give me free refills.. and whatever different flavor i want.. and it should be free... after all, it's just hot water over beans with some milk & sugar

and the steak house.. i should demand they give me that $20 steak for free! and allow me to give copies to my friends.. for free!

hey, you're right.. this is great! everything would be free! i wouldn't have to pay a dime!

say.. my lawn needs mowing, the windows need cleaning, and the house could use a coat of paint.
when can i expect you over to do it all? free, of course. and of course, you'd supply the paint.. that i select..
and thanks for all those free supplies and labor

this is just awesome!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

[keyclone]

:D

[Khazrael]

Draku, while I can appreciate you appear to be trying to promote another application, as you feel that it is a good application with good support, I think you're doing it a disservice by going about it in this manner. No one on these forums are trying to sell keyclone (keyclone himself, he's only ever here supporting users, I've never seen him try and push his product on anyone). A lot of people who have used keyclone and are satisfied might suggest it to people as something to use through experience, but that's not trying to make a sale, that's a happy consumer trying to inform other consumers about a product they feel is worthwhile.

Somehow I doubt keyclone has the money to pay everyone who promotes his application as good software on these forums, with charging a measly $20.00 per copy. Which leaves only one reason for people to continue to talk about and suggest the application: good software and good support.

[Freddie]

personally... when it comes to 'free' software that has no ads and no discernible means of income, i'm ALWAYS suspicious.
HotkeyNet is free because it's in beta.

Actually only about half of its features are complete, and it's really in alpha, but people don't know what alpha means, so I say beta. :)

[Khazrael]

HotkeyNet is free because it's in beta. Is that to imply you will charge a fee once it's production ready? If so, that kind of puts this whole discussion to rest.

[Freddie]

Is that to imply you will charge a fee once it's production ready?
That's one threshold. The other is, the program needs to have more than a certain minimum number of users.

[Simulacra]

it would be the opinion from a 'net citizen for over 20 years (bbs anyone? can you say procomm?)



Would you like some ZModem and WWIV BBS Software to go with your Procomm software? (sysop of a board for about 2 years back in the day! :D )

LOL - we're showing our age aren't we...yes I remember well getting a list of BBS phone numbers and trawling through them. I was the only person I knew with a PC and got comments like "WTF do you need a modem for" and "WTF is a modem anyway?" of course noone back then said WTF! mmmm 1100 baud LOL - it took ages to download porn 8)

[thinus]

No one on these forums are trying to sell keyclone (keyclone himself, he's only ever here supporting users, I've never seen him try and push his product on anyone).

Every single thread anyone makes where they ask what software to use for boxing they are told "buy keyclone, only $20, etc". How is that *not* trying to sell it?
Also check the AHK sticky, KeyClone himself promoted his product inside the AHK sticky, yes, thats right, inside the AHK sticky.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind as such. Push KeyClone all you want, its his software, he is hosting this site as well, right? Make a KeyClone banner and put it on top of the site. Advertising KeyClone is not the issue for me.

Generalization is. When people say things like "KeyClone does what all the other multi-boxing software does and KeyClone does it better" it gets under my skin. This is a blatantly untrue statement and false advertising. I know that the people who use KeyClone love it and are passionate about it but try and stay objective and don't make stupid statements.

[Gallo]

No one on these forums are trying to sell keyclone (keyclone himself, he's only ever here supporting users, I've never seen him try and push his product on anyone).

Every single thread anyone makes where they ask what software to use for boxing they are told "buy keyclone, only $20, etc". How is that *not* trying to sell it?
Also check the AHK sticky, KeyClone himself promoted his product inside the AHK sticky, yes, thats right, inside the AHK sticky.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind as such. Push KeyClone all you want, its his software, he is hosting this site as well, right? Make a KeyClone banner and put it on top of the site. Advertising KeyClone is not the issue for me.

Generalization is. When people say things like "KeyClone does what all the other multi-boxing software does and KeyClone does it better" it gets under my skin. This is a blatantly untrue statement and false advertising. I know that the people who use KeyClone love it and are passionate about it but try and stay objective and don't make stupid statements.Keyclone does not host this site. Ellay does... and he doesn't even use keyclone. The whole fervor behind people pushing keyclone has been because nearly everybody that has used it, has loved it. It's a snowball effect. The more people that use it and love it, will preach to others to buy it. I think that Rob doesn't do a TON of self promotion... he usually chimes in when other people suggest keyclone. I think he generally does a good job and being unbiased... shoot, he's DEFINITELY suggested to other people to get AHK or Octopus(when it was free) as an alternative if you couldn't swing the $20.

[junx]

This thread is counter-productive, it really doesn't help the alternative product's adoption to come on the board where the largest potential customer base resides and call them biased or whatever the charge is. If people aren't aware of the other products, then do something productive to showcase the alternative's features. Make a setup video, make a comparison matrix, make anything but a thread complaining about something as nebulous as customer bias. I understand the intention but it just comes off as sour grapes.

Also go look at the first Keyclone thread on the board, Rob got flamed up and down when he introduced Keyclone but he stuck it out and the product caught on. He overcame the justified suspicion of his software as a keylogger, defended his decision to not release a trial or offer it for free and everything else it took to make his product a success.

[Otlecs]

I won't fan the flames on this thread, but I will say....

If the only motivation people had for writing software was to make money, there would be no WoW mods, Linus Torvalds would probably be another anonymous coder, the Free Software Foundation would be something to do with building and the Sourceforge would be a place to buy something to go with your Sunday lunch.

Everyone *should* be suspicious of little-known software, especially little-known software that demands net access... but that's true for all software, and no more so for freebies. Just because something has a dollar tag on it doesn't make it any more trustworthy.

To question the motivation of all freeware developers based on ones own paranoia and lack of understanding what motivates them is quite wrong.

The best firewalls (Zonealarm for example), spam filters (Mailwasher for example) and anti-virus software (many examples) either are, or started life as, free.

I'm glad we now have lots of software options to help us multibox, and I think it's entirely right and proper that we continue to promote all solutions equally - we all have our favourites, and they all have their advantages, after all.

[Draku]

Look.......this thread was initiated to try and stop people making inaccurate statements about software OTHER than Keyclone.

Thinnus's comments are right on the mark.

Rob's comments in this thread are quite frankly absurd. I never ONCE criticised him for selling his software....just read his stupid rants......

For what it is worth....the money is really unimportant when buying this sort of software......it is all about trust and the relationship between the provider and the consumer........I am extremely happy I am using software written and supported by someone like Freddie........I would be delighted if Freddie started charging ......I am confident his license agreement would be sensible and user friendly.

To be honest,.......I don't really care anymore......it is a shame that people will come to this site looking for information without realising that it is so closely associated to keyclone. Still...why should we expect different it is the wild wild west after all

[Draku]

I'm glad we now have lots of software options to help us multibox, and I think it's entirely right and proper that we continue to promote all solutions equally - we all have our favourites, and they all have their advantages, after all.
TOTALLY AGREE.

All I was asking in this thread was that we stop saying all the free solutions are badly supported......that is all........

[Wilbur]

The discussions going on here are Counter productive.

Rob is just as entitled to advertise his software as the rest of the Developers around here are. If you feel there is a better solultion there is nothing to stop you offering the same level of support as Rob does for a diffrent product.

In short, less QQing please, and for future refrence, verbally berating a member of the moderation staff is ill advised, unless there is genuine reason to.