Unethical Gameplay?

[MiRai]

I put up this video on my channel yesterday, and there's been some discussion in the comments section already, but I know that not everyone watches my random videos, so I thought I'd share it here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99EhfRWYANA

The jist of it (although I'd recommend just listening to it) is about not being "engaged" with the game itself, opening yourself to failing bot checks done by a GM, and whether or not one should be resentful when receiving a ban/suspension for lack of engagement (although you might actually be falling under the rules that Blizzard had previously stated).

Feel free to share your comments on this matter, if you'd like. I understand that people do feel differently about this, so I'll ask that everyone be cordial to each other during any discussion.

Below, I will also just copy and paste the pinned comment that I wrote for the video. The questions are not necessarily a questionnaire, although you can reply to it as such if you'd like, as I was just trying to give some food for thought.



Given the two examples I present in the video, you are, technically speaking, physically pressing keys on the keyboard, and those key presses result in an in-game action, yet you are open to failing bot checks from a Game Master.

So...
1) When your focus and attention is detached from the game and directed elsewhere, are you still playing the game at that point?
2) Do you feel that Blizzard intended that their game be played without requiring that the player's attention be focused on their character, or characters?
3) If given, should bans/suspensions be upheld if players are found to be taking part in unattended gameplay and failing bot checks, as described in the video, even though they are technically following the, somewhat, open-ended rules currently set forth by Blizzard?
4) Do you think we'll see changes to their policy if more people continue to engage in this style of unattended gameplay?
5) Should Blizzard update their policy from "a physical key press must result in an in-game action" to "a physical key press must result in an in-game action, and you must be giving your attention to the game client"? Or should that just go without saying?

To restate my opinion... Personally, I don't care if someone wants to sit and farm something for hours on end, as long as their attention is directed, for the most part, at the game, and they're aware of the events that are happening to their character/characters. From the perspective of game design, I don't believe that Blizzard intended that their game be played in this manner, on auto-pilot, but I also believe that they don't care whether someone wants to mindlessly farm something—as long as they're able to put enough effort into watching the game client, while doing it, so that they can respond to whatever may be happening to them.

So, how do you feel about this type of gameplay?

[EaTCarbS]

I feel if Blizzard didn't want people to semi-afk farm in their game, they would build it in a way to encourage such. It's part of MMO design; There is a video I watched somewhere that goes into this topic really well, can't remember it. Basically the game is built this way to keep people logging in every day to achieve small goals. semi-afk gameplay is very common in EVE because the pve is boring, but there is a risk/reward system that somewhat benefits attentiveness.

Ah, the video im thinking about was done by extra credits, but i don't remember the exact video.

found it https://youtu.be/tWtvrPTbQ_c

[ebony]

1) When your focus and attention is detached from the game and directed elsewhere, are you still playing the game at that point?

No ( or though am waching you video right now when leveling ) so is my " attention is detached"

2) Do you feel that Blizzard intended that their game be played without requiring that the player's attention be focused on their character, or characters?

No i don't think you should be playing a game if you don't wanna play.

3) If given, should bans/suspensions be upheld if players are found to be taking part in unattended gameplay and failing bot checks, as described in the video, even though they are technically following the, somewhat, open-ended rules currently set forth by Blizzar

I don't think blizzard does in game bot checks anymore there outdated and would need them to login the game after reports.

4) Do you think we'll see changes to their policy if more people continue to engage in this style of unattended gameplay?

Nope

5) Should Blizzard update their policy from "a physical key press must result in an in-game action" to "a physical key press must result in an in-game action, and you must be giving your attention to the game client"? Or should that just go without saying

I don't feel they should i think its fine as it is...


-----


As well i think when multiboxing really got into this to stop my hand dieing from hardcore carpal tunnel mode, was when "personal" loot got added.

As for "bot" checks i don't think many get banned by a real person anymore anyway staff cost to much, I think its more of a warden doing the banning then the old school gm check.

As well i do think there was a Gray area where Multiboxing did get more of a jail out of free card then they used to defo before the last few months.


There was a few false Bans when warden when wonky and banned boxers in bg's i know it happened to a few and kurshpac

[JohnGabriel]

If the people are not engaged in the content they need to make the content more engaging.

In the 13 years since release they could have introduced more intelligent mobs by now. Oh look that guy is standing still farming us over and over, lets toss some fire at his feet and see what happens.

Lazy devs make lazy players.

[Ritley]

Lazy players are born, they are not made. Working "smart" is one of humanity's greatest pursuits. We do this in practically everything we participate in. "How can I make this easier/less tedious" is a question we all ask ourselves on probably a daily basis. There is nothing a game developer could possibly do to prevent players from trying to find the path of least resistance. We find the best return on time invested and then try to find ways to make it easier. So much so that developers are even building passive farming methods into games now (Hi garrisons/order halls!).

The problem isn't that mobs are stupid. There are tons of areas in the game where AFK or Semi-AFK farming is not possible exactly because there are skills/abilities that the mobs use that force you to be present and move regularly. Players find the areas where that isn't the case and then try to exploit it as much as possible without breaking the rules. Blizzard typically reacts by nerfing those areas so that it is either no longer possible or the rewards aren't worth it. Then we, as players, move on to find the next easy farming method. Blizzard can't change human nature.

I don't see any problem with this nor do I see any problem with people "AFK" farming (Should we rename it AFM away from monitor?) from another room if they are pressing the buttons on their keyboard. The risk they run is not being able to react to bot checks and getting banned. That is a choice they are making when they leave the view of their monitor or focus on something other than the game. If you don't want to be treated like a bot, don't act like one.

[WOWBOX40]

Im actually pretty good at using the auctionhouse and that was my main place to farm gold: buy low and resell for higher.

I then started on more advanced studies at university. I also work full time, 37.5 hours a week.

I do want to also carry on to play wow and also earn gold though at the same time. I dont have time to farm for 3 hours, then go do schoolwork for 3 hours..

I found that farming mobs that respawn quickly can be a ok way to earn some gold, casually pressing keys, while i read books or relax watching news or even a movie.

In order for my body/back to cope sitting still for hours i very much prefere my sofa or bed. So i bring my keyboard with me, either wired thru a 10 meter extensioncable i got or thru a wireless keyboard.

Ive never had any issues with GMs ingame. I may have been very lucky it seems. I therefore recently added another monitor and i duplicated the signal from my mains screen into it, so i can see whats going on when im sitting in the sofa.

Ive also spoken to a GM and told them that if they need to talk to me, to only contact me thru my mains account name/game nr: reason being that the other windows are so tiny, i wont be able to notice the popup "a gamemaster wants to talk to you" prompt.

I think this "semi / away from monitor" method should be allowed, cause im not using any illigal 3rd party software and actions arent spammed when i press and hold down a key. Only the initial action when i press down the key, thats it.

They are able to scan my pc at any time. They can track my keypresses down to the millisec and, i assume, also track how long it is between keypresses and probably analyze a lot of things. They should be able to see that im not doing anything illigal. There should therefore not be needed for them to "bot check" me?.



Though if this gets illigal, i will then stop, create a lot of bankalts on lots of servers, then setup TSM sniper on all of them. Then create a fixed plate for my mouse, so that the broadcasted mousecursor doesnt move from the buyout button, and then casually "roll" the scrollwheel to buy very good deals from my bed/sofa, instead of killing mobs. "But... this is probably not allowed either then".


If Blizzard want to remove this semi / away method, they could maybe implement a policy that states something like..."if we contact you ingame, you have XX minutes to respond. If we notice actions are still being done and you dont respond after the time expire, you risk getting banned".

Sidenote:
awhile back they nerfed a farming spot to the ground..but like "100 yards" away there was several other spots with the same exact respawn / loot. Those didnt get nerfed. /mind blown.

[MiRai]

I'll just quickly reply to a few things...

Just to be clear, I'm all for the mantra of "work smarter, not harder," but there are always rules (or laws) that limit that, some of which fall into a gray area, which is where the questions of "ethicality" arise. I am also okay with the fact that stand-still farming areas exist—I never suggested that they be removed—and if someone wants to sit there and grind in the area, then they should be allowed to do that. However, I believe the issue arises when a player "disengages" from the game to do something else entirely, and these stand-still farming areas is what attracts this behavior.

As far as bans go, unless something has changed, then GMs need to verify that unattended or automated gameplay is taking place before a ban is given out. Over two years ago, there was the huge debacle where someone on the Emerald Dream server was banned after being reported by a mass-multiboxer, and Blizzard came out and said that automatic bans are never triggered through the number of reports. They even went as far to say that only one report is recognized, and the rest are ignored when it comes to reporting players for cheating. I searched for over an hour trying to find the blue posts, but all I could come up with was Lore's response on Twitter (https://twitter.com/CM_Lore/status/676853857746489344). In addition, here is Vrakthris (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20753536943?page=1#post-17), from the CS forum, last year talking about how Blizzard takes "great care in making sure that the actions that [they] take are as close to 100% accurate as [they] can." So, I doubt that bans have since been moved to simply being automated through the Report Player > Cheating interface, as that would allow players to truly police their own realms and would be abused to no extent.

[WOWBOX40]

Well they cant prove where i am or what i am doing while im pressing the buttons.

The only thing at the moment that seems to be able to ban me, is if they message me on one of my other accounts, that are on a very very small portion of one of my monitors.

If they did a spesific bot check on that one, i would most likely fail it. Even if i sat in front of my computer.

Im probably not alone.

What will they do? Will they ban only that spesific account? That whole battlenet with 8 accounts? All my battlenet accounts?

I think thats out of order, since im actually here. Im playing. Though im only able to see the fullscreen of my main character account clear as day. I dont think this is wrong.

The "gm wants to talk to you" prompt is veeery small. They should change that to become maybe a fullscreen warning, make the whole screen turn all red and flash? On all my active accounts? Bypass any sound settings, so a audible sound is heard? Why not imo. Also: the jamba /whisper forwarder doesnt work 100% of the time. If a Gm /whispers me, maybe it could be sent by default to all my active battlenets/accounts?

Im pretty sure they have notes on me. Ive been playing for as long as you MiRai.

Im being told by players almost every single day that they will report me. Imagine at blizzard hq (years back): "omg this is the 2000th report we have gotten...the workload it creates on this guy alone is insane. Lets just create a script so we never have to see these ever again" :)

Btw i disabled /s and /y and /emote ages ago. Im not interested in talking to or reading crap from rude and/or misinformed strangers. If they do want to contact me, they can /w me. Which i promptly report, if deemed against the chat tos. I only talk to friends via battlenet, /w, /p or /raid

Btw, funny that you mentioned the software that makes it possible to play other games at the same time. Oddly enough ive never been that bored.

Isboxer has a similar feature, kinda, which i use whenever i want to play solo or do raids etc with friends. I have a solo profile in isboxer, which i remapped almost all keys from my main to only a few farm macros on the slaves.

So im out there healing Argus etc, while the slaves stand still and kill stuff at the same time. If a gm ever "bot tested" one of them while i was in argus i prob wouldnt notice.

In addition to stand still farming, there are actually lots of other things one could do. Imagine you have 8 toons farming mobs (even 8 different spots in the world), 4 is crafting... 4 is disenchanting... on 3 other realms you are running TSM sniper. The list goes on.. now imagine playing 24+++ accounts. The sky is the limit


IMO, if they want us to pay attention at all times as a multiboxer, as long as i atleast is able to pay attention to 1 account, that should count as "im paying attention to all my accounts".

Btw: why do some think this a problem?
Wouldnt it be easier and safer for both Blizzard and us: it prevents false bot checks. If they can contact my main account if they need to do a bot check: im there --> no bot, case closed.

For reference: ive never been contacted by a gm for a "bot check, not that i know of anyway. And as i said above, people tell me almost daily that they will report me for hacking and/or botting.

Btw MiRai, i hope you will forward both the video and link to this forum to Blizzard.

It would be nice to know their official stance on these subjects.

Your excellent video also touched on other parts aswell, which i would love to know Blizzards reaction on.


I realized that they already have a implemented "warning" screen... the one where the whole screen turns blue, when you need to confirm your ingame store purchase. Maybe they could use that one, and make it appear on all the currently active accounts and on all current battlenet accounts, when they wish to perform a "bot check". That certainly would be easy to spot.

[Wubsie]

I already commented on the video, but I'll drop my 2 cents here as well, along with some comments.

In the examples given in the video, I do think the more-or-less complete disconnect of the player from the game is enough to warrant action being taken. It naturally follows that if it warrants action, those actions should be upheld as well. This of course is expecting a due process of sorts where it is determined that "unattended gameplay" is what is actually going on.

From a multiboxing perspective it of course raises some concerns that it might be the case that you miss the GM trying to contact you in one of your scaled down windows, with your focus being divided between everything else that is going on over your game clients and that leads to action being taken towards that account. Now, some might argue that this falls under the same category and I don't think that is completely unfounded, but I do think there is a very key distinction of intent that needs to be considered, as far as the ethics. I think there is a major difference between attempting to create a system where you are effectively disconnected from the game and you are still reaping the benefits usually gained by enduring the grind and being present and simply not being able to follow everything that's going on. Of course intent is hard if not impossible to test and show, so it won't do you much good if you were to fail a bot check simply because you missed something even when you're trying your best to keep track of it all with limited screen real estate.

It would of course be nice if Blizzard were to follow what some people here have asked them in regard to contacting their usual lead toons/accounts, but I don't see how it is their responsibility to jump through extra hoops to do their checks, especially in cases where it's suspected that the person is not really paying any attention to the game. Would that not partially defeat the purpose of the check? Similarly with the idea for larger, more visible notifications for when GMs try to contact you, it would of course be nice, but again it would only be to the benefit of a very small niche group (i.e. us) so it's unlikely any such changes are coming.

As far as changes to the rules, I don't know if we'll see any actual changes to the written EULA/TOS. The ones in place already have enough leeway for Blizzard to act upon basically anything they wish to. Official statements would be nice and I think clear rules are to the benefit of everyone involved, but they also have a down side of giving a sort of partial acceptance to everything that is not specifically prohibited, so I don't think we'll see anything beyond vague statements about unattended gameplay.

[WOWBOX40]

1.
"no one" plays with sound enabled on all the slaves when they play. I only have sounds enabled on my main character window. I can also hear the sounds when i tab out from that window or when its not in focus. So its basically impossible to hear any incoming /whisper sounds coming from the slaves if a GM contacts one of them. And as i said, the jamba whisper forwarder only works seldomly.

2.
The game has a ingame slider for render grafics.
The game is already pretty demanding and it will get worse in BFA, supposedly.
Have any tried to have the render scale on 50% and with lowest possible settings ingame AND that the slavewindow is like 5 x 4 cm "in real world" on a 24 inch monitor? Thats right, no chance to see any "bot checks" on that window when you do a stationary farm.

There is a reason that addons like jamba can warn if a slave looses /follow and much more on your "main window".
There is a reason we have to use addons like tellmewhen or/and weakauras to track major cooldowns etc etc on the slaves.
There is simply no chance to effectivly track everything on all monitors at the same time.


3.
One would imagine its in Blizzard interest to keep us subscribed.
How hard could it be to actually atleast contact the "main" window, the one you lead from, the one you told them is your "main", to conform if you actually are there or not.
It would be interesting to know how much time you actually have to respond to a "bot check", before you get banned.

Random example, the one MiRai did in his video>
Imagine you are smelting 7000 ores on each, you got 20 accounts.
You are lazy so you have them all lined up in a big long row in dalaran.
People get jealous.
You ofcourse just choose smelt all and go afk. You know that you will auto logoff in around 30 min, so you set your watch for 25 min.
A Gm contacts you because someone reported you around 2 min after you went afk irl.
You do not respond... you get banned.
In this example i dont think you should be banned.


I would give many more example but its been a loong day and i just got home. /dives into bed

[Jabberie]

Random example, the one MiRai did in his video>
Imagine you are smelting 7000 ores on each, you got 20 accounts.
You are lazy so you have them all lined up in a big long row in dalaran.
People get jealous.
You ofcourse just choose smelt all and go afk. You know that you will auto logoff in around 30 min, so you set your watch for 25 min.
A Gm contacts you because someone reported you around 2 min after you went afk irl.
You do not respond... you get banned.
In this example i dont think you should be banned.

Are you sure you want to use this as an example?

[WOWBOX40]

Are you sure you want to use this as an example?



I just gave an example. its also a stationary "farm" so to speak. Ive not tried to smelt bars myself ingame.

If i were a auction house hero focusing on smelting cheap ores to sell bars, i would most definitly not be sitting in front on my pc all the time while smelting all day long. I would run insane. It even have a feature to smelt all bars non stop. I guess its a perk.

But who knows, if you arent there, you went afk, and you got reported for cheating, maybe its possible to get banned.
i mean, its also possible that you arent able to see the GM popup on "toon nr 15", if its a very small window.
Even if you actually sat right there in front of the computer engaged in a movie on monitor nr 5.

I guess if there was a timelimit you got to respond to a GM, i guess it should be atleast within 25 min.

Now its your turn to explain why i maybe shouldnt have given this as an example.

[mbox_bob]

Are you sure you want to use this as an example?

The only rule that example really contravenes is 7.c.iii of the TOU (which is pretty wide open and non specific).

(iii) Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Game.
Which the interpretation might be, "your character is doing boring repetitive stuff, so you should be getting the experience of doing boring repetitive stuff too", but this is not actually the case is it. Your character is putting stuff in a forge, melting stuff, cleaning it, pouring it, moulding it, cooling it. You on the other hand are keeping a seat warm. Perhaps if you did some cleaning around the house (or making cakes) while AFK, at the same time, it would be a on a par experience, and the WAF would be high.

If the essence of the game play is to capture your attention, then perhaps the design of areas which do not require your attention needs to be looked at.

[WOWBOX40]

Before i pass out of tiredness, i had a sudden possible "eyeopener" moment.


Maybe, since the time you have available while you go afk, untill you auto log out of the game, is 30 min...
That means that its perfectly OK to be afk *you literarly are and the sign above your head says AFK".....even if you are doing something...f.ex smelting.

This means that you will log out automatically after 30 min.

If you arent....then you could possibly be a botter.


So me having a key remap to "jump", which prevents me from going AFK status and eventually auto log out... could be a good sign of a possible botter.

So......... if i atleast look at my screens closely around every 20 ish min, i shouldnt have any issues.


"Just seems kinda logical at the moment.

[Jabberie]

It's not at farm at all. It's pressing one button to create all and going afk. No other commands are done at all to your character in your 25 mins.

[Ritley]

Not to mention it's a base part of the game that doesn't even require an addon to accomplish. It was built, as is, by Blizzard. Nobody, multiboxer or not, has ever been banned by Blizzard while using the create all feature of the stock professions UI.

[MiRai]

Breaking up my replies into two posts because there's a lot.


Well they cant prove where i am or what i am doing while im pressing the buttons.

The only thing at the moment that seems to be able to ban me, is if they message me on one of my other accounts, that are on a very very small portion of one of my monitors.

If they did a spesific bot check on that one, i would most likely fail it. Even if i sat in front of my computer.

Im probably not alone.

What will they do? Will they ban only that spesific account? That whole battlenet with 8 accounts? All my battlenet accounts?

I think thats out of order, since im actually here. Im playing. Though im only able to see the fullscreen of my main character account clear as day. I dont think this is wrong.
It's highly unlikely that a missed whisper is going to result in a ban. There are plenty of other checks they can run on a character to test if they're automating gameplay.


Im pretty sure they have notes on me. Ive been playing for as long as you MiRai.
I often wonder whether or not "senior" multiboxers—those who have had their accounts for a long time—are given a break when reported. I mean, rather than verify anything with a whisper, a GM would simply do a quick visual check, and unless I'm doing something truly questionable, they just move on to the next ticket. /shrug



Im being told by players almost every single day that they will report me. Imagine at blizzard hq (years back): "omg this is the 2000th report we have gotten...the workload it creates on this guy alone is insane. Lets just create a script so we never have to see these ever again" :)
You can watch Pinkskull talk to a GM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh1yyPcQ2BA) who tells him that he's been reported "quite a bit" in the week prior, and that he has been reported over 800 times across the lifetime of the account he's playing on, but obviously no action had been taken since he was never found to be doing anything wrong.



IMO, if they want us to pay attention at all times as a multiboxer, as long as i atleast is able to pay attention to 1 account, that should count as "im paying attention to all my accounts".
I think Blizzard acknowledges that when it comes to multiboxers, but that's not really what I was originally discussing in the video.


Btw MiRai, i hope you will forward both the video and link to this forum to Blizzard.

It would be nice to know their official stance on these subjects.

Your excellent video also touched on other parts aswell, which i would love to know Blizzards reaction on.
Once some people heard the word "multiboxer," they'd get bent out of shape and lose focus of the actual discussion.


I realized that they already have a implemented "warning" screen... the one where the whole screen turns blue, when you need to confirm your ingame store purchase. Maybe they could use that one, and make it appear on all the currently active accounts and on all current battlenet accounts, when they wish to perform a "bot check". That certainly would be easy to spot.
First of all, family members can play from the same BNet account, at the same time, so it doesn't make much sense to alert everyone playing on the account.

Second, that would be incredibly intrusive if you were in the middle of something when a GM wanted to contact you—it's supposed to be a whisper, not a megaphone.

[MiRai]

"no one" plays with sound enabled on all the slaves when they play. I only have sounds enabled on my main character window. I can also hear the sounds when i tab out from that window or when its not in focus. So its basically impossible to hear any incoming /whisper sounds coming from the slaves if a GM contacts one of them.
If you were tabbed out of the game, then you're AFK and you aren't going to be bot-checked unless they have a good reason. It's not like GMs just do spot checks on random players to see if they're automating gameplay in any way.


And as i said, the jamba whisper forwarder only works seldomly.
It was explained to you before (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/54384-Hmm-found-this-scary-reading-(-quot-sad-wrongful-ban-while-multiboxing-quot-)-insert-your-2-cents-if-you-want?p=413966&viewfull=1#post413966) that JAMBA cannot forward any GM whispers. The entire frame is protected, which means user add-ons cannot access it or make any changes to it.


The game has a ingame slider for render grafics.
The game is already pretty demanding and it will get worse in BFA, supposedly.
Have any tried to have the render scale on 50% and with lowest possible settings ingame AND that the slavewindow is like 5 x 4 cm "in real world" on a 24 inch monitor? Thats right, no chance to see any "bot checks" on that window when you do a stationary farm.
The render scale option does not affect the user interface, which means all frames, text, buttons, artwork, etc. are all rendered at 100%, regardless of the render scale setting.


One would imagine its in Blizzard interest to keep us subscribed.
How hard could it be to actually atleast contact the "main" window, the one you lead from, the one you told them is your "main", to conform if you actually are there or not.
It would be interesting to know how much time you actually have to respond to a "bot check", before you get banned.
I don't think there's a time limit, as there are plenty of other assumed checks that you would fail if your character was doing something and you weren't responding.

Why would a GM do a bot check on a character that is just hanging out? If your character is standing around doing nothing and you look like you're AFK, then you're not going to be bot checked. I wouldn't doubt that the idle time of your character is visible to GMs if they want it to be, since that information has to be known by the server before it automatically sets you AFK.

I don't doubt that a GM in World of Warcraft would give multiboxers the benefit of the doubt, and simply message the leader. In other games, I've heard of GMs sending whispers to other characters in the party, and people "failing" the bot check because of that. It's not hard to believe that a GM that has never dealt with a multiboxer before might make the mistake of messaging a follower, but that doesn't mean that it would be upheld.


Random example, the one MiRai did in his video>
Imagine you are smelting 7000 ores on each, you got 20 accounts.
You ofcourse just choose smelt all and go afk. You know that you will auto logoff in around 30 min, so you set your watch for 25 min.
A Gm contacts you because someone reported you around 2 min after you went afk irl.
You do not respond... you get banned.
In this example i dont think you should be banned.
First, why would anyone ever be reported for smelting? Second, why would a GM completely ignore the fact that you can smelt bars and be AFK? Since, as it's been pointed out, that feature is built right into the profession UI.

Again, receiving a whisper and not responding does not result in a ban.



I just gave an example. its also a stationary "farm" so to speak. Ive not tried to smelt bars myself ingame.
I would not consider smelting bars to be a stationary farm.


If i were a auction house hero focusing on smelting cheap ores to sell bars, i would most definitly not be sitting in front on my pc all the time while smelting all day long. I would run insane. It even have a feature to smelt all bars non stop. I guess its a perk.

But who knows, if you arent there, you went afk, and you got reported for cheating, maybe its possible to get banned.
i mean, its also possible that you arent able to see the GM popup on "toon nr 15", if its a very small window.
Even if you actually sat right there in front of the computer engaged in a movie on monitor nr 5.

I guess if there was a timelimit you got to respond to a GM, i guess it should be atleast within 25 min.

Now its your turn to explain why i maybe shouldnt have given this as an example.
You'd have to be in front of your computer to move your character(s) between the auctioneer, the mailbox, and a forge to smelt bars at. Even if you used a portable mailbox and thermal anvil, you'd still have to click through a bunch of frames and options in the UI. Also, how could you be AFK from your computer and buy ore from the auctioneer?

I do not understand this example.


I think what needs to be understood is that you need to be reported multiple times before a GM will come and do an in-game check on you. If a few uneducated haters want to report you for lolcheating, it's unlikely that a GM is going to show up until there are more reports. You also aren't going to get bot-checked when you're AFK—Blizzard would do a check to the player that actually makes sense.

Finally, GMs aren't assholes, and it's not their job to seek and destroy every player who might be playing in "the gray area." I already quoted Blizzard stating that they take care when looking into an actual report, and they try to make sure they're doing the right thing when actually handing out a ban. Please stop whittling the entire bot-check process down into one simple whisper.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Wall of text incoming since I haven't had a PVP drama thread to whine about in a while. Also, GET OFF MY LAWN. ;)

I'll just chime in with a few things.

* I have sound enabled on all 5 toons. Always. Even the one that wants to be called Loretta. Because if one falls behind and I miss/ignore the follow-broken warning, when my other toons are not in combat and I hear combat sounds, it usually means one guy is stuck in a hostile area. Saved my bacon plenty. Highly recommended. Requires some tuning so you don't get overwhelmed by noise (e.g. disable environment/ambiance, set followers to half volume). Here, I'll even provide my example for this (note: my volumes are low across the board so I can hear Netflix):
Master:

/console set Sound_MasterVolume 0.1/console set Sound_SFXVolume 0.2
/console set Sound_MusicVolume 0
/console set Sound_AmbienceVolume 0.5
/console set Sound_DialogVolume 1
/console set Sound_EnableAmbience 1
Slaves:

/console set Sound_MasterVolume 0.1
/console set Sound_SFXVolume 0.1
/console set Sound_MusicVolume 0
/console set Sound_AmbienceVolume 0
/console set Sound_DialogVolume 0
/console set Sound_EnableAmbience 0

* The Jamba whisper forwarder has never failed to forward me a whisper from a GM or anyone else on any character as long as I didn't have the Jamba channel somehow misconfigured or it was a Jamba beta release that had a channel bug due to an unforeseen Blizzard change. (Yes, the GM whispers were pre-popup-change.)

* There's this nifty addon called sounds4chat. It lets you override the sound of, say, that whisper thingy that nobody seems to be able to hear. On mine, it makes this really, really audible noise that I can hear even when I'm in the kitchen getting something to drink. It's totally amazing. Y'all should look into that before something...unfortunate happens to your account. Here, I'll even link it for you: https://www.curseforge.com/wow/addons/sounds4chat

* When I'm doing something that I always want to see details about, I discovered two options that work pretty well. The first option is, just make the windows big enough that I can see them all, and move them around so I can see the part(s) of the screen I want to see. The second option (I use ISBoxer) is to set up a dxNothing repeater for the area I'm interested in so it's this big normal-size chunk of window so I never have to worry about things popping up there and me not seeing it and having something dramatic happen to that character/window.

* If I'm standing somewhere farming something, I figure that since Blizzard has a well-known and well-documented method for contacting people to personally check whether they are an AFK bot, and they do this personal-contact thing as a courtesy to me rather than just banning me and making me prove I'm not a bot, I own personal responsibility for being able to respond to those rare but important queries to the best of my ability. I've had I think 4 of those, two of which happened after the move to the little extra popup rather than just straight whispers.

* I agree in spirit with MiRai's comments regarding standing in one place pressing a button while basically AFK. However, if the problem is that some tasks are so mind-numbingly boring that people watch TV with no sound and no monitor while pressing 1 for hours, not only is that fostering a whole new generation of advanced carpal tunnel syndrome sufferers but creates areas where "botters" can take advantage of bugs/loopholes to fill a customer need. (Does anybody honestly think that if the game were fun for everyone 24/7 that botters would exist in their current numbers?) That said, until and unless they remove all the monotonous things in the game, or until you get hired as a game designer/product manager for WoW, you'll have to expect to play the way they want you to play or be actioned for not doing so. EULAs suck, but without a bunch of people willing to make it painful for Blizzard to enforce it, they'll keep right on doing what they're doing.

I'm usually pretty live-and-let-live about people doing whatever as long as it isn't running afoul of the "Don't Be A Dick" ethos. Hell, even botting isn't necessarily big-E Evil IMO, but you can't exactly allow some people to do it when there are so many others that would exploit it to ruin parts of the economy or camp play areas, with the knock-on effect of pissing off lots of players and overworking the support team. The MMO company that comes up with a way to automatically enforce "bad" botting regulations and allow "good" botting will have a big advantage over the games that don't have that. Maybe. Maybe AI will kill us all off by then. Right after the black helicopters show up.

[WOWBOX40]

Thank you all very much for all your answers and insight.

I belive i got all the answers i needed.


I think the reason i mentioned the smelting thingy was just to make some sort of "paralell" that... ok so a smelter can click a button and go AFK...totally afk, while they reap the benefit of that... but a crafter or disenchanter cant do the same, they have to press the button / macrobutton everytime.. meaning that its "kinda unfair"... They smeling and beeing afk... is a bit similar to me clicking the craft / disenchant button from the sofa watching a movie.

But anyway.

Im content with the answers.


Im just going to stick with what ive been doing and check my monitors around every 20 min.
(i will be watching my main window all the time though. And if i get banned for this, well, im sure il be able to find something else to spend my money on).

If anything happens i will let you know.


Edit.. TY for the addon link!




Btw MiRai,
regarding the "It was explained to you before (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/54384-Hmm-found-this-scary-reading-(-quot-sad-wrongful-ban-while-multiboxing-quot-)-insert-your-2-cents-if-you-want?p=413966&viewfull=1#post413966) that JAMBA cannot forward any GM whispers. The entire frame is protected, which means user add-ons cannot access it or make any changes to it."

I was aware of that, what i ment was if the GM tried to send me a regular /whisper also, similar to a normal /whisper from a random player.



Ughmahedhurtz

i totally forgot about this isboxer feature.. to create Dxnothing regions.

I will try figure out where the "GM wants to talk to you popup" appears excactly for each game using the moveanything addon and make a Dxregion for each. Better yet, il move them if i can so that it appears just above the slaves /w chatwindow, so il be able to see both. If i cant find it using moveanything, i do rememeber approx where it appears.

i will then place those to a side on my main screen, so i can easily see if any of the slaves gets contacted.


Absolute genius suggestion.

I will investigate.

[Jabberie]

I'm sorry to burst the bubble but manual GM checks do not include a whisper by default so relying on that would be not a smart move.

[WOWBOX40]

I'm sorry to burst the bubble but manual GM checks do not include a whisper by default so relying on that would be not a smart move.


He can do as many manual checks he wants. It will just be me sitting/laying casually pressing the keyboard with my own fingers "semi away from the monitors". Worst case scenario he will move a toon or do something else, which i will pick up on around every 20 min or so. If they want to ban me for that, then so be it. That will be my hint to move on with my life.

[JohnGabriel]

Most modern gaming keyboards have auto-fire.

It seems a fine line between sitting on the couch away from the monitor watching a movie while spamming one key over and over, and sitting on the couch away from the monitor watching a movie while auto-fire does it.

[WOWBOX40]

Most modern gaming keyboards have auto-fire.

It seems a fine line between sitting on the couch away from the monitor watching a movie while spamming one key over and over, and sitting on the couch away from the monitor watching a movie while auto-fire does it.


i dont want to use a keyboard, small numpad device or wireless ps2 controller so i can hold down a button and let it spam a macro. Thats a sure way to get banned. Blizzard is tracking the millisecs between each click, so if you are pressing and holding and creating presses with same intervalls... not humanly possible...banhammer time.

[Chumbucket]

A ban or even suspension is pretty heavy handed for "unethical" behavior.

[MiRai]

Blizzard is tracking the millisecs between each click
I'm going to ask that you cite a source for this statement. Many players seem to believe that Warden is this amazing piece of anti-cheat software that tracks your every move and catches everyone doing anything wrong, but I think they're greatly overestimating the capability of it.

[WOWBOX40]

I'm going to ask that you cite a source for this statement. Many players seem to believe that Warden is this amazing piece of anti-cheat software that tracks your every move and catches everyone doing anything wrong, but I think they're greatly overestimating the capability of it.

My source is people i know, who got banned for "3rd party software": they used to place a pen fixed to a fan rotating from side to side, the pen then pressed the spacebar, which was mapped to a macro. Other people used a ps2 controller with bluetooth, tapeing down a button. There are also other ways to make it work like this. Some also used devices like this to prevent going afk during the launch of a new expantion.

When a GM comes to investigate if you are botting or whatnot, they most likely have the ability to track it. Its similar to the combatlog, but includes jumping etc. If its non human behavior it is a "robot".

If it wasnt able to be detected, every person would have just bought a "autofire" keyboard, taped down a key and called it the day. It isnt realistic to have someone press a button over a periode of time nonstop with same intervalls between actions.

But no i dont have any official sources sadly.
Im sure there are others out there who know more.

I do remember a bluepost though, regarding that such a keyboard could lead to a ban. It was years ago. Maybe we can find it somewhere.

[ebony]

they used to place a pen fixed to a fan rotating from side to side, the pen then pressed the spacebar, which was mapped to a macro. Other people used a ps2 controller with bluetooth, tapeing down a button. There are also other ways to make it work like this. Some also used devices like this to prevent going afk during the launch of a new expantion.


fsF7enQY8uI


is it a robot??

[Ritley]

My source is people i know, who got banned for "3rd party software": they used to place a pen fixed to a fan rotating from side to side, the pen then pressed the spacebar, which was mapped to a macro. Other people used a ps2 controller with bluetooth, tapeing down a button. There are also other ways to make it work like this. Some also used devices like this to prevent going afk during the launch of a new expantion.

When a GM comes to investigate if you are botting or whatnot, they most likely have the ability to track it. Its similar to the combatlog, but includes jumping etc. If its non human behavior it is a "robot".

If it wasnt able to be detected, every person would have just bought a "autofire" keyboard, taped down a key and called it the day. It isnt realistic to have someone press a button over a periode of time nonstop with same intervalls between actions.

But no i dont have any official sources sadly.
Im sure there are others out there who know more.

I do remember a bluepost though, regarding that such a keyboard could lead to a ban. It was years ago. Maybe we can find it somewhere.

So you have no idea what actually happened. Got it.

[WOWBOX40]

The 4 spesific people i know, 2 irl nearby and 2 from wow, could have lied ofc. I cant garantee that what they told is the whole truth. I will try to dig a bit online later for the bluepost.

But i belive pressing and holding down a button to spam ingame spells etc is automation. They have stated before that 1 keypress and holding it down = max "1 action" allowed.

[MiRai]

My source is people i know, who got banned for "3rd party software": they used to place a pen fixed to a fan rotating from side to side, the pen then pressed the spacebar, which was mapped to a macro. Other people used a ps2 controller with bluetooth, tapeing down a button. There are also other ways to make it work like this. Some also used devices like this to prevent going afk during the launch of a new expantion.

When a GM comes to investigate if you are botting or whatnot, they most likely have the ability to track it. Its similar to the combatlog, but includes jumping etc. If its non human behavior it is a "robot".
I'm sorry, but that is not a reliable source.

I could very easily say something like, "My cousin knows a guy who works on the Warden team, and he says that Warden doesn't do that." I just "one-upped" your source with my imaginary source, and you wouldn't have known that it was imaginary had I not said so. Do you see how unreliable that is?


If it wasnt able to be detected, every person would have just bought a "autofire" keyboard, taped down a key and called it the day.
What? If Blizzard states that X behavior is not allowed, why would you then think that if X behavior cannot be detected, that then everyone is going to engage in X behavior? This just isn't true, by any stretch of the imagination.


But no i dont have any official sources sadly.
Im sure there are others out there who know more.
I will accept a source from someone who is intimately familiar with Warden and what it does. If you can find a known bot author, or someone who really knows their shit, who has posted on a "reputable" botting site, I will accept their statement. I will not accept a family member, a friend, your neighbor's uncle, or some random dude from some random site on the internet who has only a handful of posts.

I might seem like I'm being hard on this, but you made your statement with such certainty, and I really dislike the spread of false information, even if you're helping deter people from engaging in unethical gameplay.



I do remember a bluepost though, regarding that such a keyboard could lead to a ban. It was years ago. Maybe we can find it somewhere.

But i belive pressing and holding down a button to spam ingame spells etc is automation.
Yes, any GM will tell you that auto-fire, loops, and automatic delays are against the game's rules, but all keyboard and mouse software, including the World of Warcraft branded mouse/keyboard from Steelseries, have this ability. Plenty of people engage in this type of behavior and see no repercussion, simply because Warden is not "tracking the milliseconds between each click."

Could Warden track that information? Sure, but it would never be 100% accurate. Do you think Blizzard wants to base their bans off of inaccurate results? Maybe. Who knows? Maybe when they want to track a certain account/character to build evidence against them, then they do turn on something like that. I don't have a reliable source to counter your unreliable source, except that I have known people who have engaged in that type of behavior, and they had never seen any action on their accounts because of it.

[Ritley]

The 4 spesific people i know, 2 irl nearby and 2 from wow, could have lied ofc. I cant garantee that what they told is the whole truth. I will try to dig a bit online later for the bluepost.

But i belive pressing and holding down a button to spam ingame spells etc is automation. They have stated before that 1 keypress and holding it down = max "1 action" allowed.

The problem is you and these acquaintances have no idea what alerted them to automated gameplay. They were away from the computer and couldn't react to any of the bot checks blizzard may have employed. They (and you) have no idea if it was because they didn't react to a teleport properly, didn't respond to whispers, the GM noticed that even though they moved the character the button/macro still kept firing but the character never reacted beyond that. Maybe the GM killed the character and the macro kept firing but the character never tried to res. A GM would be able to bot check without needing to use Warden or any other bot detection software. They could see your friends weren't at their computer just by looking at the characters in game. Claiming you know the reason when neither you or them were even at the computer when it happened is ridiculous. There is only one thing for certain, they were trying to automate gameplay, like a bot, and got banned for it.

Warden has the ability to scan your computer to see what processes are running, and while it's possible it might be collecting data like how many keystrokes you are sending per second it's unlikely for a variety of reasons:

1) That is an insane amount of data to collect and analyze.
2) They can get this information without Warden at all. The game client sends keystrokes to the server. There is no need for an anti-cheat tool to detect that information.
3) It's perfectly legitimate to be at your keyboard pressing and holding a key or set of keys. And many people do this as part of their normal, legitimate play sessions. The amount of false positives this would create would be too much to handle.
4) Warden has the capability to look at all applications/executables running on your system to see how they are interacting with World of Warcraft. Why would it waste time/resources looking at keystrokes?

[MiRai]

I found a useful statement from a Blue (https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20351865087?page=3#post-47) on this matter:


Understand also, that while we prohibit that use that doesn't mean we are monitoring all activity to such a degree that we're checking to see if you are pressing the "2" key too quickly or at precise intervals. We are primarily looking for exploitative activity, activity that harms the overall game play environment. If you use these methods that doesn't mean that the invisible hand of Blizzard will immediately descend and smite you. You will place the account at risk though and it is possible that penalties may be applied if automation is verified.

I understand that Warden can be updated at any time to include something new that it wasn't capable of just moments after being downloaded onto your machine when you first run your game client, but as Ritley pointed out, tracking keystrokes and mouse clicks is quite a bit of data to be recording, and then expecting that someone (or AI) to be able to precisely determine whether or not someone was using software to apply auto-fire to a few of their keys is quite a stretch.

Yes, while it is certainly unethical to engage in this type of gameplay, especially when the game you're playing doesn't allow it, that doesn't mean that it's an automatic ban right out of the door.

[WOWBOX40]

Im at work so i dont have much time. I realize it must be a lot of data. Maybe they only "engage" in tracking various parameters when they want to investigate someone on the spot. That "file" would then include any evidence. But yes, it would be nice if we could find any definite answer from someone in the know.

[Jabberie]

https://i.imgflip.com/295e0k.jpg (https://imgflip.com/i/295e0k)

[WOWBOX40]

"You will place the account at risk though and it is possible that penalties may be applied if automation is verified".

Tapeing down a button remapped via isboxer to do a standstill farm 24/7 inkluding jumping to prevent going afk.. isnt that automation and prob also a exploit of the economy.
You only need a keyboard or f.ex a ps4 controller to create the unlimited spam effect.

You can create the same effekt by using a external fan. Its also possible to create delays in isboxer.

[MiRai]

Its also possible to create delays in isboxer.
It is not possible to add auto-fire, looping, or automatic delays (resulting in a string of actions) to any Action that sends a keystroke, in ISBoxer—this is by design. Every Mapped Key, and every Step within, requires that a key be pressed before anything is sent to the game client, and that a key continue to be pressed, for any further action to take place.

[WOWBOX40]

That is right.
Thats why you need external help if want to do that, like either standalone software, via a keyboard with software or some other psycical device.

Have any of you sent a question to blizzard or botmakers to ask if they know if they can track keypresses down to the millisec or not btw?

I may not have time to do it until maybe saturday.

Random rambling while at work:

Btw, if it turns out Blizzard doesnt mind using a autofire keyboard to spam commands, tape down the button, for a standstill farm, with f.ex 1 sec interval between actions, i will personally buy maany more computers and start selling gold. Based on the amount of gold and few hours im able to farm myself right now, with just pressing the buttons with my own fingers up and down, if im comparing it to wow token prices. i can earn several thousands of euros every month.

I could stop working.

i could join a world first ish guild again and do that i like: to play games.
I could even pick up streaming again aswell.
I will have 1 pc for wow and 1 pc solely for streaming.
The other maaaaany pcs will be farming gold nearby.


If im greedy (i probably will be pretty soon) and want to let it run a lot longer, its totally possible to notice the GM bot-checks with the right equipment on every game window, though it wont be cheap. And even if im asleep. The pcs will be in a different room with its own seperate air condition.




Somehow i have a feeling this spammage isnt allowed.. but we will see eventually.
I will make efforts to figure this out for sure.

Though, if it has been allowed this whole time, ive then been a total fool all these years and il be the first to /facepalm and /sadface irl: i could have started to make a decent living out of this many many years ago.

[Ritley]

What are you talking about? Nobody ever said automated, unattended gameplay was allowed. And RMT is absolutely, unequivocally a ban. A perma ban.

[WOWBOX40]

What are you talking about? Nobody ever said automated, unattended gameplay was allowed. And RMT is absolutely, unequivocally a ban. A perma ban.


MiRai said above:

"Yes, any GM will tell you that auto-fire, loops, and automatic delays are against the game's rules, but all keyboard and mouse software, including the World of Warcraft branded mouse/keyboard from Steelseries, have this ability. Plenty of people engage in this type of behavior and see no repercussion, simply because Warden is not "tracking the milliseconds between each click."


So...they dont allow it.. its against the rules.. but at the same time they arent able to actually notice if anyone is using the keyboard to spam commands.. but they will consider it automation if someone is abusing it?

Pretend im just going to use the "automation" part from blizzards own keyboard. To spam a single button macro.
Im going to visually check the gamewindows to see if a GM tries to botcheck me all of a sudden.
I will just be sitting there doing homework, reading and such. While i dont have to worry about getting tired fingers etcetc. Seems like a ok and legit strategy? its not like im abusing it.. i mean, im here, in the flesh. Right? Not AFK.

I wish to get this verified.





Btw, do we have any multiboxers out there who can step forward and let us know if they have done any standstill farming like this without any issues for a long periode of time:

"Plenty of people engage in this type of behavior and see no repercussion, simply because Warden is not "tracking the milliseconds between each click.""

[JohnGabriel]

Edit: getting carried away

[MiRai]

Random rambling while at work:

Btw, if it turns out Blizzard doesnt mind using a autofire keyboard to spam commands, tape down the button, for a standstill farm, with f.ex 1 sec interval between actions, i will personally buy maany more computers and start selling gold. Based on the amount of gold and few hours im able to farm myself right now, with just pressing the buttons with my own fingers up and down, if im comparing it to wow token prices. i can earn several thousands of euros every month.

I could stop working.

i could join a world first ish guild again and do that i like: to play games.
I could even pick up streaming again aswell.
I will have 1 pc for wow and 1 pc solely for streaming.
The other maaaaany pcs will be farming gold nearby.


If im greedy (i probably will be pretty soon) and want to let it run a lot longer, its totally possible to notice the GM bot-checks with the right equipment on every game window, though it wont be cheap. And even if im asleep. The pcs will be in a different room with its own seperate air condition.

Somehow i have a feeling this spammage isnt allowed.. but we will see eventually.
I will make efforts to figure this out for sure.

Though, if it has been allowed this whole time, ive then been a total fool all these years and il be the first to /facepalm and /sadface irl: i could have started to make a decent living out of this many many years ago.


MiRai said above:

"Yes, any GM will tell you that auto-fire, loops, and automatic delays are against the game's rules, but all keyboard and mouse software, including the World of Warcraft branded mouse/keyboard from Steelseries, have this ability. Plenty of people engage in this type of behavior and see no repercussion, simply because Warden is not "tracking the milliseconds between each click."


So...they dont allow it.. its against the rules.. but at the same time they arent able to actually notice if anyone is using the keyboard to spam commands.. but they will consider it automation if someone is abusing it?

Pretend im just going to use the "automation" part from blizzards own keyboard. To spam a single button macro.
Im going to visually check the gamewindows to see if a GM tries to botcheck me all of a sudden.
I will just be sitting there doing homework, reading and such. While i dont have to worry about getting tired fingers etcetc. Seems like a ok and legit strategy? its not like im abusing it.. i mean, im here, in the flesh. Right? Not AFK.

I wish to get this verified.

Btw, do we have any multiboxers out there who can step forward and let us know if they have done any standstill farming like this without any issues for a long periode of time:

"Plenty of people engage in this type of behavior and see no repercussion, simply because Warden is not "tracking the milliseconds between each click.""
If you continue to talk about how you want to automate gameplay and engage in RMT, you're going to receive a vacation from this forum. Discussion of either of these topics is against the rules of this forum (https://www.dual-boxing.com/threads/49138-Dual-Boxing-com-Community-Rules-Read-Before-Posting), and you will find no assistance on this site for such activities. After all these years, I still find it fascinating that players will come to this forum, openly discuss such endeavors, and then act clueless about it all, as if the lack of automation, botting, hacking, and RMT threads on this site, wasn’t a dead giveaway.

My recommendation is that you walk away from this thread, as I doubt there’s anything else that you can say, at this point, which would reflect positively upon yourself or your gameplay ethics.

[Tin]

I do standstill farming almost every day - normal a hour a time - getting bored very fast - sometimes it´s the tv is running other time I stream my game play.

I don`t see what could be wrong with that - single player or group are doing the same farming same place.

How can standstill farming/simi afk farming be more wrong than people useing TSM snipper ?????

Only one that I know who had a ban/suspension is pechthefarmer - farming 3-4 hours a day (never ask him what happend)

https://www.twitch.tv/pechthefarmer

[mbox_bob]

So...they dont allow it.. its against the rules.. but at the same time they arent able to actually notice if anyone is using the keyboard to spam commands.. but they will consider it automation if someone is abusing it?
Just because X has the ability to do Y, doesn't mean you SHOULD ACTUALLY DO IT.

e.g.
My car has the ability to kill people, like real dead, if I chose to use it in that particular way. Does it mean I should do that?? No it does not. Why? Because it's against the rules.

What about if nobody noticed I was killing people with my car. Should I do it? Again, still a No. Why?, because it's against the rules.

If I do go round killing people with my car, and get caught doing it, should I then whinge about it, and say it wasn't my fault I didn't do nothing? NO, I should take the punishment owing to me, and not effin whinge about it, because I broke the rules.

[Wubsie]

I do standstill farming almost every day - normal a hour a time - getting bored very fast - sometimes it´s the tv is running other time I stream my game play.

I don`t see what could be wrong with that - single player or group are doing the same farming same place.

How can standstill farming/simi afk farming be more wrong than people useing TSM snipper ?????

Did you watch the video? The question is not whether or not a stand-still farm is OK. No one is saying it is not.

What we're talking about is whether you're really actively playing the game if, for example, you'd be playing a completely different game and have those same inputs trigger a farming "routine" for a wow client (or clients) somewhere in the background with you having 0 focus on those, to the extent that you might not even realize your character had died/DC'd/ whatever hours ago and you'd still just keep spamming the same commands to them.

[mbox_bob]

whaaaaattt??

You mean I'm not playing the game if I'm catchin catfish in the bayou, but I still have my dippy drinking bird hitting the keys for me?

But I set up Dippy in the right position. Does that not count?

[WOWBOX40]

Did you watch the video? The question is not whether or not a stand-still farm is OK. No one is saying it is not.

What we're talking about is whether you're really actively playing the game if, for example, you'd be playing a completely different game and have those same inputs trigger a farming "routine" for a wow client (or clients) somewhere in the background with you having 0 focus on those, to the extent that you might not even realize your character had died/DC'd/ whatever hours ago and you'd still just keep spamming the same commands to them.


Also, im a very sorry MiRai, it was a slipup rant tirage of frustration and i wont mention it again.




Wubsie, what you said is actually very reassuring for the game and is a excellent method to discover illigal activities i think.

I mean, if Blizzard wish to test if someone is doing something illigal and being afk, them killing off random characters, teleporting them around, disconnecting them etc, and then notice that commands are still being sent as if nothing has happended (for how long they allow it, we dont know i guess, but for hours is definitely a clear indication of foul play) ----> possible ban.


I did manage to find this interesting read ragarding the keyboards. Its a long one.
https://infernix.net/wowban/



Update:
Blue replied today, maybe some more answers will follow.

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618421692

[Jabberie]

https://i.imgur.com/JS4xUcz.png

[WOWBOX40]

https://i.imgur.com/JS4xUcz.png


Update:
Blue replied today, maybe some more answers will follow.

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618421692

[Tin]

Did you watch the video? The question is not whether or not a stand-still farm is OK. No one is saying it is not.

What we're talking about is whether you're really actively playing the game if, for example, you'd be playing a completely different game and have those same inputs trigger a farming "routine" for a wow client (or clients) somewhere in the background with you having 0 focus on those, to the extent that you might not even realize your character had died/DC'd/ whatever hours ago and you'd still just keep spamming the same commands to them.

I did see the video and questions - and I don`t agree in all his point on Unethical Gameplay or how the game has to be played.

- I don`t think any has 100% focus on the game if they are standstill/simi afk farming. It bee us as multiboxer or the goblin farming for a pet.
- It`s has nothing to do with time - is 1 hour off focus more bad than 5 min. you still not looking at your game.
- TSM snpping your toon standstill for hours at the AH and you are doing stuff on your main/watch tv or what ever - and you only focus on that toon when you hear the sound go off, is that Unethical Gameplay?

I´m still hitting my keys, doing my ingame marcos - but when useing a Autoclicker to send you keys press it`s the same as botting and is not ok.

[Jabberie]

Update:
Blue replied today, maybe some more answers will follow.

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618421692

The MVP sums up your attempt pretty well. It's like asking the IRS how Cayman island bank accounts work. (I'm tired, can someone give me a better analogy?)


I did see the video and questions - and I don`t agree in all his point on Unethical Gameplay or how the game has to be played.

1- I don`t think any has 100% focus on the game if they are standstill/simi afk farming. It bee us as multiboxer or the goblin farming for a pet.
2- It`s has nothing to do with time - is 1 hour off focus more bad than 5 min. you still not looking at your game.
3- TSM snpping your toon standstill for hours at the AH and you are doing stuff on your main/watch tv or what ever - and you only focus on that toon when you hear the sound go off, is that Unethical Gameplay?

I´m still hitting my keys, doing my ingame marcos - but when useing a Autoclicker to send you keys press it`s the same as botting and is not ok.

1- there is a difference between lack of focus and outright ignoring something.
2- there is, massively, a difference between 1 hr and 5 mins. ties into point 1.
3- that is literally standing skill doing nothing but running a scan waiting on the buzzer to then change window and physically do something to the AH window. Not the same as standing still and doing a collection of spells and abilities.

Going to step back from this thread now cause I can't tell if people are just trolling now or .....

[MiRai]

Update:
Blue replied today, maybe some more answers will follow.

https://eu.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17618421692

You: "Can I automate key presses?"
Blizzard: 'No."
You: "What if I only do it some of the time? Are you able to detect if I only do it some of the time?"

You're done. When you return, do not post in this thread.

[Wubsie]

- I don`t think any has 100% focus on the game if they are standstill/simi afk farming. It bee us as multiboxer or the goblin farming for a pet.

I'm not saying you need to have 100% focus on the game and nothing but. Plenty of people watch movies, streams and whatnot while playing. However they still have a level of focus on the game as well. In the situations we're talking about there is next to none. The player is either nearly, or completely disconnected from the game and unable to react to even basic stimuli for extended periods of time. This is not the same as briefly talking to your stream, or watching a movie on a secondary monitor while playing where your focus most likely jumps back and forth between the 2.



- It`s has nothing to do with time - is 1 hour off focus more bad than 5 min. you still not looking at your game.

It has everything to do with time, and naturally the intent of gaining benefits without having to 'suffer' the work normally required. I don't think anyone would claim that you can not do anything apart from playing while you are playing. If my fiance walks in and wants to talk about something for a minute or 2, you bet your ass I'm pulling off my headset and focusing on the conversation with her, even if I am still hitting keys, if for example I was mid fight. I don't think anyone would claim that this would be somehow ban worthy. I don't see how you're able to draw an equals sign between this and creating a system where you are more or less completely disconnected from the game but still reaping the benefits of playing, plausibly for hours on end. It's just not nearly the same thing. Just because it's hard to quantify the amount of time and focus needed to be considered to be actively playing with specific numbers does not mean there isn't an important disctinction between the two situations and I don't think it's possible to hide behind the whole "it's still my keypresses doing it" in these scenarios.



- TSM snpping your toon standstill for hours at the AH and you are doing stuff on your main/watch tv or what ever - and you only focus on that toon when you hear the sound go off, is that Unethical Gameplay?


I'm not too familiar with TSM Snipe, but my understanding is that it scans the AH for auctions listed substantially under market value and informs you off any it finds, right?

The difference here is that for the addon to do it's work, it requires no action from you, apart from doing the purchase. The time you are not focused on your character, essentially nothing is happening. Additionally the Add-on runs in the LUA "sandbox" that Blizzard has left for addon developers. If they deem it to be destructive or too automated, they can simply change the environment the addon runs in to not allow this functionality. This is not the case with the farming setups we're discussing here.


I'll be withdrawing from this thread too since I do not like the direction it is heading...

[Ughmahedhurtz]

We are primarily looking for exploitative activity, activity that harms the overall game play environment.
This and various forms of it are pretty common. It's interesting to me how frequently this (to me) simple statement is so often met with confusion, consternation, and complaints.

[MadMilitia]

I liken it to fishing. Consider the design. The bobber jiggles within a time window the most often you cast a lure. So it's just basic sense to cast, look away, count and then click the bobber sometime after hearing the splash.

The game design makes for lazy or unethical play. Not the other way around.

[Jabberie]

I liken it to fishing. Consider the design. The bobber jiggles within a time window the most often you cast a lure. So it's just basic sense to cast, look away, count and then click the bobber sometime after hearing the splash.

The game design makes for lazy or unethical play. Not the other way around.

But you do pay attention to it otherwise you miss your window.

Damn it, I said I wouldn't post in here again... GRRR

[MadMilitia]

But you do pay attention to it otherwise you miss your window.

Damn it, I said I wouldn't post in here again... GRRR


Actually I just listen for the audible cue. Then I click on all of them ~1 second or so later. That gives the one that notified me enough time and some others to catch up. Not the cleanest but it's better than staring at a bobber the whole time. I thought it was a good example of what we were talking about here =D.

[Jabberie]

Actually I just listen for the audible cue. Then I click on all of them ~1 second or so later. That gives the one that notified me enough time and some others to catch up. Not the cleanest but it's better than staring at a bobber the whole time. I thought it was a good example of what we were talking about here =D.

You have already paid more attention to the game than some in this thread by doing it your way.

[Ritley]

Every person I come across who claims that the game promotes this unethical gameplay is, I am fairly confident, a botter/cheater/exploiter in some fashion and is just trying to convince themselves they are doing nothing wrong. "It's Blizzard's fault not mine!". Who do you think you're fooling?

[WOWBOX40]

Every person I come across who claims that the game promotes this unethical gameplay is, I am fairly confident, a botter/cheater/exploiter in some fashion and is just trying to convince themselves they are doing nothing wrong. "It's Blizzard's fault not mine!". Who do you think you're fooling?

Those who do bot and dont care about their accounts are fully aware that they might be banned anytime if caught "offguard" so to speak. The chances of getting caught though are slim it seems. And if you are caught, it also appear you usually only get banned in their 6 months to a year banwave. You could have earned a lot during that time.

Me f.ex ive been farming often since around october last year. I just dinged 680 mill gold earned thru selling the items on the ah. Yes you did read that right. Ive spent lots on "selfplay" raid and pvp boosts etc. Almost 30k "nerdpoints" now. Not sold 1 gold even. I care about my accounts. Im also at 430 mounts collected. I obviously dont want to loose my accounts.

If i did bot i certainly wouldnt post here and if shit did happen, it would be easy to buy new legion games which include a lvl 110 on each. I wouldnt cry about it if i botted and got banned.

[Ritley]

Why did you quote me just to go off on one of your tangents and not respond to what I wrote in any fashion whatsoever? Another great post by WOWBOX40. Congrats on your gold and mounts bud.

[JohnGabriel]

When I start a mythic I turn auto-fire on and it does not get turned off until the dungeon is done. I have never worried about it because I put /stopmacro [nocombat] at the top of every macro.

Blizzard never said anything about it to me, but I am also physically sitting at the keyboard frantically watching the monitors and actively pressing various other keys and footpedals while constantly moving around.

[WOWBOX40]

Thats the thing John. They never take contact, since that will inform you that they are watching you. This could give you a chance to alter your "what you could be doing" to try remain undetected. Instead they give you a ban 6 to 12 months later, whenever the next banwave happens. If you manage to stay "under their radar" for a solid 1.5 years, i would conclude your "plan" works well.


Sidenote... i just realized that there arent that many different posters on this forum in general. I thought the community was bigger tbh. Ohwell, maybe most are just quietly lurking around ;) /cough botters /cough j/k, i have no idea.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Sidenote... i just realized that there arent that many different posters on this forum in general. I thought the community was bigger tbh. Ohwell, maybe most are just quietly lurking around ;) /cough botters /cough j/k, i have no idea.
Signal to noise ratio is excellent around here. Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by much more fundamental concepts. My engineering team at work averages about 4 replies per email thread. Our Marketing team averages 12, largely because of the "Thanks!" or "OIC" replies that have exactly zero intellectual value.

[MadMilitia]

Signal to noise ratio is excellent around here. Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by much more fundamental concepts. My engineering team at work averages about 4 replies per email thread. Our Marketing team averages 12, largely because of the "Thanks!" or "OIC" replies that have exactly zero intellectual value.


LOL @ "OIC" brings back good memories of days in EQ with my buddy Glouns.

[Acidburning]

Signal to noise ratio is excellent around here. Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by much more fundamental concepts. My engineering team at work averages about 4 replies per email thread. Our Marketing team averages 12, largely because of the "Thanks!" or "OIC" replies that have exactly zero intellectual value.

/thumbs up

[ebony]

this topic still going.

here a topic i found form the gsse dev

https://wowlazymacros.com/forums/topic/bots-botting-and-the-thin-grey-line/

[JohnGabriel]

this topic still going.

here a topic i found form the gsse dev

https://wowlazymacros.com/forums/topic/bots-botting-and-the-thin-grey-line/

This is from that link:

What we know is that when these tools are used to remove the RSI (Repetative Strain Injury) inducing behaviours of spamming the same keyboard button over and over. No one has been banned for using these tools in this behaviour.

This is how I use it and feel a bit better seeing that statement.

[ebony]

This is from that link:


This is how I use it and feel a bit better seeing that statement.


the problem is when u do that with a useless paper wight, and go afk on a stand still farm

[MadMilitia]

Unrelated to the thread but for RSI I found the patu forearm rests to be a life saver. They work by suspending the tendons responsible for hand/finger movement in air while your arm weight rests towards your elbow or the fat of the forearm. After using them for a month my hand pains were completely gone.

The way desks are made is actually horrible for your hands and RSI because the tendons responsible for hand and finger movement run down your forearm. When you rest your palm or wrist against a desk you are limiting their movement while demanding motion. This is very damaging. This can also be done by using a vertical mouse which forces your fat side of the forearm down instead of the tendon side.

[Kayley]

Notes attached to the accounts exist.

It's an issue on EU realms as blizzard's policy is to have everything logged in English. A german playerA and german speaking GM, once the ticket is resolved anything noteworthy will be attached to PlayerA's account (in English). If playerA opens another ticket, or is reported and the answer is in the notes attached to the account? Well the new German speaking GM might not understand english so there is a lot of mistranslations/errors.

This of course doesn't happen on the NA/Oceanic realms as often-- however the responding GM can ignore the notes and issue a suspension. Second GM reviewing it (at the players request) will see this, correct it, apologise to the player and GM1 will get a slap on the wrist if it's the first time making the mistake.

Take my ban a few months ago. I did the 'stand still' farming. I called in a few solid IOUs to find out (after I was unbanned) just wtf went wrong. The economic exploitation team (just a name i'm using) were the ones that investigated me and ultimately perma banned me. When I proved I didn't sell gold, my ban was upheld on the grounds of using third party software (botting). This again was done by the economic team-- not the department that investigates the use of illegal third party software. I was ignored on account A, so I went on account B and gave ALL the information regarding what I did and how I did it. The GM in charge of handling account B sent it to the department that has the tools, to see just exactly what I was doing (warden log and so on). It took them 8 hours of me opening the ticket to have A L L 32 accounts affected to be reinstated (along with gametime and a bonus mount as a sorry)

The Surveys you are requested to fill out after the ticket has been resolved DO MATTER. Any low scoring survey NEEDS to have the 'offending' GM fill out why it was poor score-- it's then reviewed by someone above him to make sure everything is legit.

I happily farm in one spot for hours (if i'm motivated) while watching TV, playing alts, playing another game.. while keypresses are sent to my farming party. I have amazing multi-tastking so i'm constantly checking and am able to respond to any ingame 'checks'. However-- I am not engaged in it at all. It's definitely not how blizzard envisioned it. BUT if 'they' thought it was a problem? it would be hotfixed straight away.

EXAMPLE. Patch 8.0 hits, you can do the LFR Dragonsoul solo/in your own group; just like the old pandaria scenarios- you queue up for it. If you multiboxed you could take one character to this NPC, queue up with all your characters, zone in and then proceed to kill all the trash without hitting the boss. It would net you 1.3k + vendor trash in less than a minute PER CHARACTER. Simple leave group, re-queue and do it again. Some boxers were making 600-900k an hour. This was a semi-lowkey farm that was just accidently added... it was fixed in under 3 hours.

I don't agree with it being unethical. To me it's the same as all the pvpers running XyZ comps which were strong and achieved decent PvP rankings 'back in the day' (I did this too). We have advantages and many disadvantages. In MoP I ran my own Flexi raids because my family/friends quit and I hated the idea of playing with randoms. Everything i've done as a multiboxer IS going against the 'spirit of the game' if you will. It is a hard one to answer isn't it.. we all have our own ideas of what is good form and not.