Close
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Showing results 1 to 10 of 54
  1. #1
    Multiboxologist MiRai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Winter Is Coming
    Posts
    6061

    Default Unethical Gameplay?

    I put up this video on my channel yesterday, and there's been some discussion in the comments section already, but I know that not everyone watches my random videos, so I thought I'd share it here.



    The jist of it (although I'd recommend just listening to it) is about not being "engaged" with the game itself, opening yourself to failing bot checks done by a GM, and whether or not one should be resentful when receiving a ban/suspension for lack of engagement (although you might actually be falling under the rules that Blizzard had previously stated).

    Feel free to share your comments on this matter, if you'd like. I understand that people do feel differently about this, so I'll ask that everyone be cordial to each other during any discussion.

    Below, I will also just copy and paste the pinned comment that I wrote for the video. The questions are not necessarily a questionnaire, although you can reply to it as such if you'd like, as I was just trying to give some food for thought.



    Given the two examples I present in the video, you are, technically speaking, physically pressing keys on the keyboard, and those key presses result in an in-game action, yet you are open to failing bot checks from a Game Master.

    So...
    1) When your focus and attention is detached from the game and directed elsewhere, are you still playing the game at that point?
    2) Do you feel that Blizzard intended that their game be played without requiring that the player's attention be focused on their character, or characters?
    3) If given, should bans/suspensions be upheld if players are found to be taking part in unattended gameplay and failing bot checks, as described in the video, even though they are technically following the, somewhat, open-ended rules currently set forth by Blizzard?
    4) Do you think we'll see changes to their policy if more people continue to engage in this style of unattended gameplay?
    5) Should Blizzard update their policy from "a physical key press must result in an in-game action" to "a physical key press must result in an in-game action, and you must be giving your attention to the game client"? Or should that just go without saying?

    To restate my opinion... Personally, I don't care if someone wants to sit and farm something for hours on end, as long as their attention is directed, for the most part, at the game, and they're aware of the events that are happening to their character/characters. From the perspective of game design, I don't believe that Blizzard intended that their game be played in this manner, on auto-pilot, but I also believe that they don't care whether someone wants to mindlessly farm something—as long as they're able to put enough effort into watching the game client, while doing it, so that they can respond to whatever may be happening to them.

    So, how do you feel about this type of gameplay?
    Do not send me a PM if what you want to talk about isn't absolutely private.
    Ask your questions on the forum where others can also benefit from the information.

    Author of the almost unknown and heavily neglected blog: Multiboxology

  2. #2

    Default

    I feel if Blizzard didn't want people to semi-afk farm in their game, they would build it in a way to encourage such. It's part of MMO design; There is a video I watched somewhere that goes into this topic really well, can't remember it. Basically the game is built this way to keep people logging in every day to achieve small goals. semi-afk gameplay is very common in EVE because the pve is boring, but there is a risk/reward system that somewhat benefits attentiveness.

    Ah, the video im thinking about was done by extra credits, but i don't remember the exact video.

    found it https://youtu.be/tWtvrPTbQ_c
    Last edited by Svpernova09 : 04-24-2018 at 01:44 PM
    EVE Online Get Ships. Train Skills.

  3. #3

    Default

    1) When your focus and attention is detached from the game and directed elsewhere, are you still playing the game at that point?

    No ( or though am waching you video right now when leveling ) so is my " attention is detached"

    2) Do you feel that Blizzard intended that their game be played without requiring that the player's attention be focused on their character, or characters?

    No i don't think you should be playing a game if you don't wanna play.


    3) If given, should bans/suspensions be upheld if players are found to be taking part in unattended gameplay and failing bot checks, as described in the video, even though they are technically following the, somewhat, open-ended rules currently set forth by Blizzar

    I don't think blizzard does in game bot checks anymore there outdated and would need them to login the game after reports.

    4) Do you think we'll see changes to their policy if more people continue to engage in this style of unattended gameplay?

    Nope

    5) Should Blizzard update their policy from "a physical key press must result in an in-game action" to "a physical key press must result in an in-game action, and you must be giving your attention to the game client"? Or should that just go without saying

    I don't feel they should i think its fine as it is...


    -----


    As well i think when multiboxing really got into this to stop my hand dieing from hardcore carpal tunnel mode, was when "personal" loot got added.

    As for "bot" checks i don't think many get banned by a real person anymore anyway staff cost to much, I think its more of a warden doing the banning then the old school gm check.

    As well i do think there was a Gray area where Multiboxing did get more of a jail out of free card then they used to defo before the last few months.


    There was a few false Bans when warden when wonky and banned boxers in bg's i know it happened to a few and kurshpac
    Jamba Addon Developer:

    Follow me on
    Twitter

    Jamba: Jamba

    EU: Blossom#2756



  4. #4

    Default

    If the people are not engaged in the content they need to make the content more engaging.

    In the 13 years since release they could have introduced more intelligent mobs by now. Oh look that guy is standing still farming us over and over, lets toss some fire at his feet and see what happens.

    Lazy devs make lazy players.

  5. #5

    Default

    Lazy players are born, they are not made. Working "smart" is one of humanity's greatest pursuits. We do this in practically everything we participate in. "How can I make this easier/less tedious" is a question we all ask ourselves on probably a daily basis. There is nothing a game developer could possibly do to prevent players from trying to find the path of least resistance. We find the best return on time invested and then try to find ways to make it easier. So much so that developers are even building passive farming methods into games now (Hi garrisons/order halls!).

    The problem isn't that mobs are stupid. There are tons of areas in the game where AFK or Semi-AFK farming is not possible exactly because there are skills/abilities that the mobs use that force you to be present and move regularly. Players find the areas where that isn't the case and then try to exploit it as much as possible without breaking the rules. Blizzard typically reacts by nerfing those areas so that it is either no longer possible or the rewards aren't worth it. Then we, as players, move on to find the next easy farming method. Blizzard can't change human nature.

    I don't see any problem with this nor do I see any problem with people "AFK" farming (Should we rename it AFM away from monitor?) from another room if they are pressing the buttons on their keyboard. The risk they run is not being able to react to bot checks and getting banned. That is a choice they are making when they leave the view of their monitor or focus on something other than the game. If you don't want to be treated like a bot, don't act like one.

  6. #6

    Default

    Im actually pretty good at using the auctionhouse and that was my main place to farm gold: buy low and resell for higher.

    I then started on more advanced studies at university. I also work full time, 37.5 hours a week.

    I do want to also carry on to play wow and also earn gold though at the same time. I dont have time to farm for 3 hours, then go do schoolwork for 3 hours..

    I found that farming mobs that respawn quickly can be a ok way to earn some gold, casually pressing keys, while i read books or relax watching news or even a movie.

    In order for my body/back to cope sitting still for hours i very much prefere my sofa or bed. So i bring my keyboard with me, either wired thru a 10 meter extensioncable i got or thru a wireless keyboard.

    Ive never had any issues with GMs ingame. I may have been very lucky it seems. I therefore recently added another monitor and i duplicated the signal from my mains screen into it, so i can see whats going on when im sitting in the sofa.

    Ive also spoken to a GM and told them that if they need to talk to me, to only contact me thru my mains account name/game nr: reason being that the other windows are so tiny, i wont be able to notice the popup "a gamemaster wants to talk to you" prompt.

    I think this "semi / away from monitor" method should be allowed, cause im not using any illigal 3rd party software and actions arent spammed when i press and hold down a key. Only the initial action when i press down the key, thats it.

    They are able to scan my pc at any time. They can track my keypresses down to the millisec and, i assume, also track how long it is between keypresses and probably analyze a lot of things. They should be able to see that im not doing anything illigal. There should therefore not be needed for them to "bot check" me?.



    Though if this gets illigal, i will then stop, create a lot of bankalts on lots of servers, then setup TSM sniper on all of them. Then create a fixed plate for my mouse, so that the broadcasted mousecursor doesnt move from the buyout button, and then casually "roll" the scrollwheel to buy very good deals from my bed/sofa, instead of killing mobs. "But... this is probably not allowed either then".


    If Blizzard want to remove this semi / away method, they could maybe implement a policy that states something like..."if we contact you ingame, you have XX minutes to respond. If we notice actions are still being done and you dont respond after the time expire, you risk getting banned".

    Sidenote:
    awhile back they nerfed a farming spot to the ground..but like "100 yards" away there was several other spots with the same exact respawn / loot. Those didnt get nerfed. /mind blown.
    Last edited by WOWBOX40 : 04-23-2018 at 08:25 AM

  7. #7
    Multiboxologist MiRai's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Winter Is Coming
    Posts
    6061

    Default

    I'll just quickly reply to a few things...

    Just to be clear, I'm all for the mantra of "work smarter, not harder," but there are always rules (or laws) that limit that, some of which fall into a gray area, which is where the questions of "ethicality" arise. I am also okay with the fact that stand-still farming areas exist—I never suggested that they be removed—and if someone wants to sit there and grind in the area, then they should be allowed to do that. However, I believe the issue arises when a player "disengages" from the game to do something else entirely, and these stand-still farming areas is what attracts this behavior.

    As far as bans go, unless something has changed, then GMs need to verify that unattended or automated gameplay is taking place before a ban is given out. Over two years ago, there was the huge debacle where someone on the Emerald Dream server was banned after being reported by a mass-multiboxer, and Blizzard came out and said that automatic bans are never triggered through the number of reports. They even went as far to say that only one report is recognized, and the rest are ignored when it comes to reporting players for cheating. I searched for over an hour trying to find the blue posts, but all I could come up with was Lore's response on Twitter. In addition, here is Vrakthris, from the CS forum, last year talking about how Blizzard takes "great care in making sure that the actions that [they] take are as close to 100% accurate as [they] can." So, I doubt that bans have since been moved to simply being automated through the Report Player > Cheating interface, as that would allow players to truly police their own realms and would be abused to no extent.
    Do not send me a PM if what you want to talk about isn't absolutely private.
    Ask your questions on the forum where others can also benefit from the information.

    Author of the almost unknown and heavily neglected blog: Multiboxology

  8. #8

    Default

    Well they cant prove where i am or what i am doing while im pressing the buttons.

    The only thing at the moment that seems to be able to ban me, is if they message me on one of my other accounts, that are on a very very small portion of one of my monitors.

    If they did a spesific bot check on that one, i would most likely fail it. Even if i sat in front of my computer.

    Im probably not alone.

    What will they do? Will they ban only that spesific account? That whole battlenet with 8 accounts? All my battlenet accounts?

    I think thats out of order, since im actually here. Im playing. Though im only able to see the fullscreen of my main character account clear as day. I dont think this is wrong.

    The "gm wants to talk to you" prompt is veeery small. They should change that to become maybe a fullscreen warning, make the whole screen turn all red and flash? On all my active accounts? Bypass any sound settings, so a audible sound is heard? Why not imo. Also: the jamba /whisper forwarder doesnt work 100% of the time. If a Gm /whispers me, maybe it could be sent by default to all my active battlenets/accounts?

    Im pretty sure they have notes on me. Ive been playing for as long as you MiRai.

    Im being told by players almost every single day that they will report me. Imagine at blizzard hq (years back): "omg this is the 2000th report we have gotten...the workload it creates on this guy alone is insane. Lets just create a script so we never have to see these ever again"

    Btw i disabled /s and /y and /emote ages ago. Im not interested in talking to or reading crap from rude and/or misinformed strangers. If they do want to contact me, they can /w me. Which i promptly report, if deemed against the chat tos. I only talk to friends via battlenet, /w, /p or /raid

    Btw, funny that you mentioned the software that makes it possible to play other games at the same time. Oddly enough ive never been that bored.

    Isboxer has a similar feature, kinda, which i use whenever i want to play solo or do raids etc with friends. I have a solo profile in isboxer, which i remapped almost all keys from my main to only a few farm macros on the slaves.

    So im out there healing Argus etc, while the slaves stand still and kill stuff at the same time. If a gm ever "bot tested" one of them while i was in argus i prob wouldnt notice.

    In addition to stand still farming, there are actually lots of other things one could do. Imagine you have 8 toons farming mobs (even 8 different spots in the world), 4 is crafting... 4 is disenchanting... on 3 other realms you are running TSM sniper. The list goes on.. now imagine playing 24+++ accounts. The sky is the limit


    IMO, if they want us to pay attention at all times as a multiboxer, as long as i atleast is able to pay attention to 1 account, that should count as "im paying attention to all my accounts".

    Btw: why do some think this a problem?
    Wouldnt it be easier and safer for both Blizzard and us: it prevents false bot checks. If they can contact my main account if they need to do a bot check: im there --> no bot, case closed.

    For reference: ive never been contacted by a gm for a "bot check, not that i know of anyway. And as i said above, people tell me almost daily that they will report me for hacking and/or botting.

    Btw MiRai, i hope you will forward both the video and link to this forum to Blizzard.

    It would be nice to know their official stance on these subjects.

    Your excellent video also touched on other parts aswell, which i would love to know Blizzards reaction on.


    I realized that they already have a implemented "warning" screen... the one where the whole screen turns blue, when you need to confirm your ingame store purchase. Maybe they could use that one, and make it appear on all the currently active accounts and on all current battlenet accounts, when they wish to perform a "bot check". That certainly would be easy to spot.
    Last edited by Svpernova09 : 04-24-2018 at 01:45 PM

  9. #9

    Default

    I already commented on the video, but I'll drop my 2 cents here as well, along with some comments.

    In the examples given in the video, I do think the more-or-less complete disconnect of the player from the game is enough to warrant action being taken. It naturally follows that if it warrants action, those actions should be upheld as well. This of course is expecting a due process of sorts where it is determined that "unattended gameplay" is what is actually going on.

    From a multiboxing perspective it of course raises some concerns that it might be the case that you miss the GM trying to contact you in one of your scaled down windows, with your focus being divided between everything else that is going on over your game clients and that leads to action being taken towards that account. Now, some might argue that this falls under the same category and I don't think that is completely unfounded, but I do think there is a very key distinction of intent that needs to be considered, as far as the ethics. I think there is a major difference between attempting to create a system where you are effectively disconnected from the game and you are still reaping the benefits usually gained by enduring the grind and being present and simply not being able to follow everything that's going on. Of course intent is hard if not impossible to test and show, so it won't do you much good if you were to fail a bot check simply because you missed something even when you're trying your best to keep track of it all with limited screen real estate.

    It would of course be nice if Blizzard were to follow what some people here have asked them in regard to contacting their usual lead toons/accounts, but I don't see how it is their responsibility to jump through extra hoops to do their checks, especially in cases where it's suspected that the person is not really paying any attention to the game. Would that not partially defeat the purpose of the check? Similarly with the idea for larger, more visible notifications for when GMs try to contact you, it would of course be nice, but again it would only be to the benefit of a very small niche group (i.e. us) so it's unlikely any such changes are coming.

    As far as changes to the rules, I don't know if we'll see any actual changes to the written EULA/TOS. The ones in place already have enough leeway for Blizzard to act upon basically anything they wish to. Official statements would be nice and I think clear rules are to the benefit of everyone involved, but they also have a down side of giving a sort of partial acceptance to everything that is not specifically prohibited, so I don't think we'll see anything beyond vague statements about unattended gameplay.
    Last edited by Wubsie : 04-24-2018 at 02:01 PM

  10. #10

    Default

    1.
    "no one" plays with sound enabled on all the slaves when they play. I only have sounds enabled on my main character window. I can also hear the sounds when i tab out from that window or when its not in focus. So its basically impossible to hear any incoming /whisper sounds coming from the slaves if a GM contacts one of them. And as i said, the jamba whisper forwarder only works seldomly.

    2.
    The game has a ingame slider for render grafics.
    The game is already pretty demanding and it will get worse in BFA, supposedly.
    Have any tried to have the render scale on 50% and with lowest possible settings ingame AND that the slavewindow is like 5 x 4 cm "in real world" on a 24 inch monitor? Thats right, no chance to see any "bot checks" on that window when you do a stationary farm.

    There is a reason that addons like jamba can warn if a slave looses /follow and much more on your "main window".
    There is a reason we have to use addons like tellmewhen or/and weakauras to track major cooldowns etc etc on the slaves.
    There is simply no chance to effectivly track everything on all monitors at the same time.


    3.
    One would imagine its in Blizzard interest to keep us subscribed.
    How hard could it be to actually atleast contact the "main" window, the one you lead from, the one you told them is your "main", to conform if you actually are there or not.
    It would be interesting to know how much time you actually have to respond to a "bot check", before you get banned.

    Random example, the one MiRai did in his video>
    Imagine you are smelting 7000 ores on each, you got 20 accounts.
    You are lazy so you have them all lined up in a big long row in dalaran.
    People get jealous.
    You ofcourse just choose smelt all and go afk. You know that you will auto logoff in around 30 min, so you set your watch for 25 min.
    A Gm contacts you because someone reported you around 2 min after you went afk irl.
    You do not respond... you get banned.
    In this example i dont think you should be banned.


    I would give many more example but its been a loong day and i just got home. /dives into bed
    Last edited by WOWBOX40 : 04-24-2018 at 06:24 PM

Posting Rules

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •