Well....I guess that's it!

[d0z3rr]

These changes are just....weird to me. I really don't think I will ever enjoy my 5 paladin group again. I am a very very casual player, and the time I spent gearing my paladin tank and my 4 rets is basically awash. I ran several different instances just now and they are definitely not what they used to be. The tank is ridiculously weak, I'm apalled at how much damage it is taking. I could've tanked better with a hunter pet pre 4.0.1.

But it's not just that. The rets even feel different. Every change that has been made is just annoying. It's like they tried way to hard to mix up the game. Normally I am a huge advocate for change, but this one unfortunately doesn't suit me. I'm sure a lot of you are fine with it, but it's just not clicking with me. If I'm not enjoying a game I spend $150/mo for, I have to cut ties.

It realllllllly sucks though. I was kinda excited for the new changes, but I had no idea it would wind up killing my paladin group. I guess they are trying to even out the game so 5x paladin groups really shouldn't be that viable.

Yes, my group was not getting their ass kicked per se. I did wipe miserably on Hadranox though.....seriously...freaking HC Hadronox. It's so weird because I remember her being very easy in HC. Yes I complain that I hate that instance but this group steamrolled her pre 4.0.1.

I've tried and tried to tweak the castsequences but the tank is still just a squishy little bitch now.

It's a bittersweet end. On one end my awesome paladin group is now shit, I will not be able to enjoy leveling them to 85, and the 12days + played (remember I'm a super casual player) is now a waste. On the other end I save myself $500+ not upgrading my 10 accts to Cat, and I can start FFXIV for good now. Plus Rock Band 3 is coming out soon and Gran Turismo 5, there's no way in hell I could juggle those + WoW.

But best of luck to those who like the change and are able to adapt, good on you. May Cataclysm offer you bundles of entertainment! :D I'll definitely still lurk these forums to see what everyone is accomplishing.

Viel Gluck!

[Zub]

just remember that all the changes are aimed towards Cata, and that we don't have cata stuf yet (higher spells, gear, etc)

we're in a transition phase, not comparable to the pwnall phase we were in 5 days ago.

[EaTCarbS]

just remember that all the changes are aimed towards Cata, and that we don't have cata stuf yet (higher spells, gear, etc)

we're in a transition phase, not comparable to the pwnall phase we were in 5 days ago.

This. Some of our primary spells won't be available to us until cata comes.

[d0z3rr]

I see what you mean, but I definitely remember BC changes. They actually were pretty damn uber, I remember my PVE group slaughtered Ramps when the changes came out. Then again, I am not expecting any changes to make me super uber, I just didn't want them to gimp me, where I wouldn't enjoy my pally group anymore.

No complaints here, it's just the way it is. I'm sure it could just be a hiatus until months after Cataclysm has been out. And once that happens maybe I'll be able to dive into WoW multiboxing once again. I still have 10 active accounts for another 30 days. I'll probably 10box some more classic stuff until they run out. 10boxing was definitely the most fun I had with WoW.

[Zub]

I see what you mean, but I definitely remember BC changes. They actually were pretty damn uber, I remember my PVE group slaughtered Ramps when the changes came out. Then again, I am not expecting any changes to make me super uber, I just didn't want them to gimp me, where I wouldn't enjoy my pally group anymore.

No complaints here, it's just the way it is. I'm sure it could just be a hiatus until months after Cataclysm has been out. And once that happens maybe I'll be able to dive into WoW multiboxing once again. I still have 10 active accounts for another 30 days. I'll probably 10box some more classic stuff until they run out. 10boxing was definitely the most fun I had with WoW.
In this case, i suggest you cancel for a couple months, and give it a try once cata is out. (single toon maybe, as the price tag to 'test' on 5 would be a bit high)
In any case, whatever you decide, go for the fun :-)

[zenga]

I feel you ... with my mate the disc priest i did a random hc on my main ele shaman. We get a demo lock, boomkin and pally tank. Pally is in #1 horde guild and is an alt that goes 10/12 hc 25m each week (for some reason we could only do random's with people from our own server tonight, lots of random dc's, getting booted from the dungeon, etc). Anyway, halls of lightning. Tank chain pulls first trash packs and gets nearly killed 2 times, if I didn't help with the healing it was a wipe. And he dc'd. So we wait for new tank, and after 10m we decide to clear next pack of trash. 5 seconds and it was dead. So we go for boss. 10 seconds and all full health. We clear our way up to 2nd boss, no prob whatsoever. We cleared whole instance with 3 dps + healer and had zero problems at all. So we decide to queue up for another one and get FoS. Pally tank we get dies on 2nd trash pack and leaves. We continue and clear the instance in record time, again 4 manning it without the tank. Except for the last boss we didn't have a single dead (i didn't have dbm installed and kill the lock by accident).

So yeah, looks like they'll have a hard time ...

[jinkobi]

I'm sort of in a similar situation. My druid's don't seem so bad but my paladin tank is a wreck.

My biggest problem is holding aggro now. Way worse than vanilla WOW mechanics... It's just a constant battle of me spamming hand of reckoning trying to regain aggro.

Things are just so different it's like being presented with an entirely new game. We all wanted a challenge to a degree, But lets face it. Everything done has been a huge nerf disguised as revamping WOW. Dev after dev always miss the point. You don't nerf the players- you make monsters harder.

Everything just seems like a frivilous process now. Spam 1 key until you proc- but the catch is most fights don't last long enough to get the proc. My druids usually eclipse right when the pull ends then it's gone by the second pull.

Right now I'm on the fence myself. Paying 75$ a month for something I'm not really even enjoying anymore. I've been having more fun playing City of Heroes the past 2 months honestly and I've played WOW for 5 years.

I'm staying subbed through the Halloween event then cancelling for a while to re-evaluate. Probably grab 1 copy of Cat then see where I want to proceed from there.

These changes just feel like huge nerfs right and left despite the cool things added. Looking forward towards the Cat dungeons... Yeah I wanted a challenge but what I'm seeing is going to verge on impossibility. Each dungeon is going to require complex macros on par with Occulus. Not sure I'm game for all that micro management.

Good luck to you man. You aren't alone out there.

[kate]

Huh, I'm not having any problems holding aggro with my pally tank even though my shaman have all increased their DPS dramatically as a result of the patch. What is your paladin tanking rotation now, jink?

Edit: To amplify, I'm actually seeming *more* powerful since the changes - by quite a bit. DPS is up, threat is up, defensive stats are up or about the same. The only thing I wonder about is if they really did add the crit-reduction to Righteous Fury, since I do seem to take really big hits every once in awhile. But I'm really enjoying the changes - maybe if I had better gear before I'd feel nerfed now?

[David]

Plus Rock Band 3 is coming out soon and Gran Turismo 5, there's no way in hell I could juggle those + WoW.
Viel Gluck!

Gran Turismo got delayed again. Better stay wow :-) GT5 is going to take more time then Duke Nukum Forever

[Ñightsham]

Huh, I'm not having any problems holding aggro with my pally tank even though my shaman have all increased their DPS dramatically as a result of the patch. What is your paladin tanking rotation now, jink?

Edit: To amplify, I'm actually seeming *more* powerful since the changes - by quite a bit. DPS is up, threat is up, defensive stats are up or about the same. The only thing I wonder about is if they really did add the crit-reduction to Righteous Fury, since I do seem to take really big hits every once in awhile. But I'm really enjoying the changes - maybe if I had better gear before I'd feel nerfed now?

Kate.... what rotation are you using on your pally?

I am having issues with holding aggro on the pally, yet as you mentioned the shaman's DPS went up dramatically and are doing great (I see earthquake being nerfed in the future)

I also don't like what they did on the Druid tree form :(

[kate]

Kate.... what rotation are you using on your pally?

I am having issues with holding aggro on the pally, yet as you mentioned the shaman's DPS went up dramatically and are doing great (I see earthquake being nerfed in the future)

I also don't like what they did on the Druid tree form :(

I don't use Earthquake on my shaman - it seems to do 1950 DPS when on 3 targets, which is more than 1k DPS fewer than I do with my shaman rotation, and it seems a little fussy to use. I'm going to experiment more with it later, but for right now it seems kind of underwhelming.

Paladin tanking macro is:
#showtooltip
/casesequence reset=9 Judgement, Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of the Righteous, Hammer of the Righteous, Crusader Strike
/cast Avenger's Shield
/cast Consecration
/cast Holy Wrath

I don't run out of mana, I have no problems generating and holding threat, and it looks like everything fires off as soon as it's ready. My DPS post-patch jumped up a fair amount on my tank, and my TPS went from about 2500 to 3500.

[d0z3rr]

Gran Turismo got delayed again. Better stay wow :-) GT5 is going to take more time then Duke Nukum Forever

Wow, I didn't even realise that. FFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU UUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

Well there is:

Fallout New Vegas
Fable 3
Dead Rising 2
DJ Hero 2 (can you tell I like rhythym games?)

I still have to finish Red Dead Redemption. Pretty much done with GH: WoR. I also have an inkling to go back to Eve online and mine again, I did get some nice ships when I had quit.

After I posted this message I went back into WoW again. Queued up for a hc Gundrak on the pallies. I only did up to the first boss. My tank still took an uncomfortable amount of damage from those snake mobs. Really sad though. But.....we did do very well on the boss. I still had to bubble for poison nova, but he went down pretty darn fast.

And my pallies threat is much much worse. I remember my rets on Omen threat meter would be a very small amount of threat. Now their threat bars in the Omen extend up to 60% of my tank!

[Lyonheart]

^ Medal of Honor is out as well, great game if you have a strong PC 8)

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I'm not seeing this "squishy pally tank" syndrome some of you are experiencing. I'm also not seeing any significant aggro issues with him, though my rets are only at about 4900GS, so if you're ubergeared, that might change things.

[Heenan]

I'm not seeing this "squishy pally tank" syndrome some of you are experiencing. I'm also not seeing any significant aggro issues with him, though my rets are only at about 4900GS, so if you're ubergeared, that might change things.

My Pally gets this initial burst on bosses now. It drops him to around 30% health. I have to actually open up with all kinds of heals to top him off. And with Ardent Defender being an on-click ability I have to be even more on my toes.

My first heroic post-patch I almost died on the hallway trash in Drak'Tharon. Before, I could pretty much sleep through those.

My gear isn't the greatest on this team, but I felt the Pally was a lot more resilient before this patch. The shaman are ridiculously powerful now though, so I'm not complaining there.

[BobGnarly]

Hey man, if it's time, it's time, and I'd never try to convince somebody to stay doing something they don't want to. However, I do think you are being pretty rash if you're making your final decision based on 2 days with a patch that Blizzard has said over and over will be unbalanced and disjoint for a while.

You can't compare this with pre BC/LK, because there have been major talent tree revamps and class changes, especially around the paladin. I haven't played yet, so I have no idea what it's like, but I'm sure they aren't going to leave paly tanks unable to hold agro and getting two shot by heroic mobs if that really is what's happening.

And it could be that we just have to adapt. Let's face it, castrandom/castsequence has really made our jobs easy. We might just have to undo that style of play and learn another, maybe even harder, style to keep going forward. But hey, that challenge can be fun as well.

Anyway, hope you stay and at least give the actually expansion a shot, but if you don't, bon chance.

[nauren01]

Huh, I'm not having any problems holding aggro with my pally tank even though my shaman have all increased their DPS dramatically as a result of the patch. What is your paladin tanking rotation now, jink?

Edit: To amplify, I'm actually seeming *more* powerful since the changes - by quite a bit. DPS is up, threat is up, defensive stats are up or about the same. The only thing I wonder about is if they really did add the crit-reduction to Righteous Fury, since I do seem to take really big hits every once in awhile. But I'm really enjoying the changes - maybe if I had better gear before I'd feel nerfed now?

same here, just tried my usual inis and it went easier than before.

Aggro is no problem at all, I use no special rotation, just judge, hammer, hammer, hammer, shield - thats it on one button.
dps is up, I have a lot more hp cause I can use stam gems now instead of def.

I never tuned /click macros for maximum effects- maybe that's why I don't feel that this change is bad.

In fact, I really like simplifying the buffs. Suddenly I get almost all raid buffs just with 4 shamys :)

[d0z3rr]

I'm not seeing this "squishy pally tank" syndrome some of you are experiencing. I'm also not seeing any significant aggro issues with him, though my rets are only at about 4900GS, so if you're ubergeared, that might change things.

I recorded a video, just need to upload to youtube.

[Velassra]

How about them there DK tanks...?

[remanz]

Quiting now might not be a bad idea. Come back after Cata. Things would start making sense again.


I went through this cycle all the time. WOW for 3 months. Then back to some console/PC games for a few months. Back to wow again.

One thing though, those console games are all light weighted comparing to boxing. I can barely hold the controller for more than 2hrs without getting bored out of my mind. I have to force myself to do stuff like "trophy/achievements grind", in order to play those games.

Another thing might be just cut the games and get something else done. Like excercise more.

[Sam DeathWalker]

Here is possible why your tank is having problems:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=13817043493&sid=1


I spent 25,000 gold to get to 430 defensive and its not even in the game anymore. I don't think you can just assume that stats you have before just translate into an optimal build now.

[kate]

Here is possible why your tank is having problems:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=13817043493&sid=1


I spent 25,000 gold to get to 430 defensive and its not even in the game anymore. I don't think you can just assume that stats you have before just translate into an optimal build now.

You are absolutely correct - some of the DPS plate pieces I had on my tank (they were upgrades from the crap greens and blues I started with, so I took 'em!) are actually better now than the "protection" plate alternative.

[killkat]

Here is possible why your tank is having problems:

http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=13817043493&sid=1


I spent 25,000 gold to get to 430 defensive and its not even in the game anymore. I don't think you can just assume that stats you have before just translate into an optimal build now.

Which part are you referring to?
I was looking at the stats changes, armor is lowered, but hp is higher, avoidance stayed somewhat similar, I reforged dodge into mastery, lost around 3.5% dodge, gained 13% block. It doesn't give any indication as to why my pally tank is taking SO MUCH more dmg now.

EDIT: I actually have no threat problem (at least in H, haven't tried raid yet), and I have no problem doing H, just need to pay closer attention to it.

[Ñightsham]

I don't use Earthquake on my shaman - it seems to do 1950 DPS when on 3 targets, which is more than 1k DPS fewer than I do with my shaman rotation, and it seems a little fussy to use. I'm going to experiment more with it later, but for right now it seems kind of underwhelming.

Paladin tanking macro is:
#showtooltip
/casesequence reset=9 Judgement, Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of the Righteous, Hammer of the Righteous, Crusader Strike
/cast Avenger's Shield
/cast Consecration
/cast Holy Wrath

I don't run out of mana, I have no problems generating and holding threat, and it looks like everything fires off as soon as it's ready. My DPS post-patch jumped up a fair amount on my tank, and my TPS went from about 2500 to 3500.

Very Nice....... Thanx.. it helped me accomplish "Volazj's Quick Demise"

[Sam DeathWalker]

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=29767&rb_v=viewtopic

Make this macro:

/script DEFAULT_CHAT_FRAME:AddMessage("Need 102.4 combat table coverage. Currently at: "..string.format("%.2f", GetDodgeChance()+GetBlockChance()+GetParryChance() +5))

The goal is to reforge the gear in such a way that the last value the macro computes comes as close to 87,4 as possible while using a minimal amount of mastery rating. (Holy Shield provides the missing 15% )

Less geared protadins should firstly reforge hit and expertise or the higher of avoidance ratings on a given item (mainly in progression gear, of course)

Hit should be 8percent and expertise 6.5 iirc


Well I dont think it is fair to expect that at level 80 people will have stong defense AND a lot of threat. The above will let you have stong defense but expertise and hit rating (and crits I guess) all effect threat. You can go all out offensive and get a ton of agro but die sooner or go all out defensive and have less ago but more survivability, I kinda doubt you will get both.

Thats what I did also, Reforged some excess dodge into mastery and call it a day. Haven't even looked at gems yet.

[boxblizzard]

just remember that all the changes are aimed towards Cata, and that we don't have cata stuf yet (higher spells, gear, etc)

we're in a transition phase, not comparable to the pwnall phase we were in 5 days ago.

this

we are in very early stages, everything is all messed up at the moment. things are unbalanced the usual business. so for now just stack gold and work trades.

im not impressed with the mechantics right now but i know these changes point towards a better result eventually. just they need to sort it out..just needs some time. patience, and understanding. if its still the same after xmas then we will all be in the same situation and many will just close the door on way out

my team is messed up atm, but im going to have more fun leveling new team from lvl 1 to 85 in new content. during the time it takes to reach 85 by then ....fingers crossed things will work better.

[Whowantstoknow]

Unbalanced or not I just dont like the Paladin changes (if I wanted to play a rogue I would roll a rogue).

[jinkobi]

this

we are in very early stages, everything is all messed up at the moment. things are unbalanced the usual business. so for now just stack gold and work trades.

im not impressed with the mechantics right now but i know these changes point towards a better result eventually. just they need to sort it out..just needs some time. patience, and understanding. if its still the same after xmas then we will all be in the same situation and many will just close the door on way out

my team is messed up atm, but im going to have more fun leveling new team from lvl 1 to 85 in new content. during the time it takes to reach 85 by then ....fingers crossed things will work better.

I've seen it before- the vanilla to TBC transition. But this is waaaay more severe. When the TBC change happened they just built upon what was there. This is an entirely different ballgame. Everything is revamped from the top down.

Despite all the defense in the world we've all been nerfed into the dust. Sure they'll rebuild us up some but it goes from one day being very powerful then the next it's like I'm given a premade of some defunct build. Feel like my characters are dead if that makes any sense, lol. Because when I play them I feel as if I'm playing somebody else's toon.

On top of it all I'm paying for all these transitional changes. Blizzard goes here- lets fuck up your character for a few months and you foot the bill sound good? Sorry that doesn't sound good.

Looking at things now... Even with Cataclysm and the higher level talents 'supposedly' evening things out. I just don't see it... Watching beta footage and hearing beta testers talk. It's like a general consensus. They like the graphics and hate the mechanics. One hardcore WOW player who's in beta has quit WOW all together after their experience. Wasn't because they thought Cataclysm sucked- but they felt WOW was too different and not enjoyable.


Unbalanced or not I just dont like the Paladin changes (if I wanted to play a rogue I would roll a rogue).

After playing a rogue for 3 years and realizing they sucked in comparison to so many other classes I rolled a paladin. Been playing my paladin almost 2 years now and loving it...

When I read that paladin's were given combo points like rogues... Well you can imagine...

You guys know me on here and that I've defended or tried to reason the changes, I was wait and see for a long time... That period I feel has passed. I'm at the see and don't like phase...

Sure I didn't want easy mode. But I didn't want my characters gutted and retuned into a different class either.

[d0z3rr]

Now I'm torn again. I setup my mixed melee team which are 73-74. Their dps has been boosted very nicely. My druid tank has a ton of health now, and her threat is very good (aoe tanking still sucks ass, the change to swipe did kinda help).

My rogue's dps has doubled! He is doing 2000 dps at level 73, before he did ~1000 dps. The warrior's dps is unchanged though. For shits and giggles I went into cat form and was able to put out 1500 dps without really trying, a far cry from the 800dps the druid got beforehand.

So maybe I won't be cancelling afterall since this group is actually improved a lot.

[d0z3rr]

Another thing might be just cut the games and get something else done. Like excercise more.

I would probably off myself within a week if I didn't have video games. When I'm on travel I have a Nintendo DS and a PSP. The PSP is modded so I can play sega genesis games.

I actually bmx bike almost daily and work out 3 times a week, those too keep me from a murder-suicide.

[pinotnoir]

I would probably off myself within a week if I didn't have video games. When I'm on travel I have a Nintendo DS and a PSP. The PSP is modded so I can play sega genesis games.

I actually bmx bike almost daily and work out 3 times a week, those too keep me from a murder-suicide.

Are you on medication? If you are a hair away from murder-suicide I would seek help. Playing wow is the least of your worries.

[Mercurio]

Lol

[Holmeser]

Are you on medication? If you are a hair away from murder-suicide I would seek help. Playing wow is the least of your worries.

Your probably his next target, :P

[moosejaw]

I don't use Earthquake on my shaman - it seems to do 1950 DPS when on 3 targets, which is more than 1k DPS fewer than I do with my shaman rotation, and it seems a little fussy to use. I'm going to experiment more with it later, but for right now it seems kind of underwhelming.

Paladin tanking macro is:
#showtooltip
/casesequence reset=9 Judgement, Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of the Righteous, Hammer of the Righteous, Crusader Strike
/cast Avenger's Shield
/cast Consecration
/cast Holy Wrath

I don't run out of mana, I have no problems generating and holding threat, and it looks like everything fires off as soon as it's ready. My DPS post-patch jumped up a fair amount on my tank, and my TPS went from about 2500 to 3500.

I wanted to point out the typo for anyone else doing the copy/paste. It took me a few pulls to figure out the castsequence was misspelled. :)

[lightstriker]

Paladin tanking macro is:
#showtooltip
/casesequence reset=9 Judgement, Hammer of the Righteous, Shield of the Righteous, Hammer of the Righteous, Crusader Strike
/cast Avenger's Shield
/cast Consecration
/cast Holy Wrath
.
This is the problem I see in the other macro threads. Many of them wait for 3 Holy Power to use SotR. You just need one to get Holy Shield up. Its 15% more block. Its up for 20 sec, that's enough time to get 3 stacks.

The other problem is that dps is too high right now. Blizz knows this. This is probably why Zenga's groups was blowing thru with out a tank.

Originally Posted by Ghostcrawler (Source)
Rather than try and address multiple threads, I'm just going to plop our current thoughts in this one post. Please excuse the brevity.

1) We think Fury, Arms, Feral cat and Retribution dps is too low and we will be buffing them.

2) We think mage dps is too high, especially Fire, and will be nerfing it.

3) We think Shadow priest dps is too high, but that's largely a result of Shadow Word: Death spam, which is tough on healers. We'll be fixing that.

4) We think Destro warlock dps is too high, but that's largely a result of Searing Pain spam, which is tough on tanks. We'll be fixing that.

5) As we suspected, PvP dps is just too high given that the health pools of Cataclysm haven't kicked in yet. While competitive PvP is over for the moment, we still want the environment to feel better so we will be buffing resilience. This change might be reverted at level 85.

There will probably be more changes after another night of raiding and BGs. Many of the bug fixes we have made today will affect dps as well. Stay tuned.

[boxblizzard]

One hardcore WOW player who's in beta has quit WOW all together after their experience. Wasn't because they thought Cataclysm sucked- but they felt WOW was too different and not enjoyable.

TBh is this expected, the classic of wow went a long time ago, reminds me of swg. but were not there yet...

ive been playing the low level classes and i can say its more fun for the individual class. blizzard know what they are doing, making things more easier for the casual player.

days of being the ownage will eventually fade away because the game will be made flexiable at same time more difficult for the boxer.

sure changes seem dumb at first but it will sink in and it will become normal.

im probably one of the old warcraft platers here, i have been playing very early stages in beta long before release and i have seen EVERYTHING.

i liked the days of tbc for boxing, wotlk release was nice. now its becoming tougher, easier for casual players more irrating for boxers.

but we had worse off long time ago, consider this as a new challenge.

im up for it, i'l give it a run for my money.

try before you buy, you have licked the surface. give it time.

[kate]

Personally, I've been having a ton of fun with this new patch (and, according to that Ghost Crawler post, my classes are not over powered right now) but it does feel a little disorienting, and I could see how someone who is really seriously wedded to the mechanics as they were would not like it because it is different.

However, for me, what I like about it is that I'm spending more time thinking about things like how I want to handle a given fight - like, the tactics - rather than stupid things like min/maxing talent points or rotations. I *really* like that because if I wanted something like street fighter, I would play street fighter. WoW as it is now with this patch actually feels more like a 3d "first person" real-time strategy game wherein you have special abilities and your units can improve over time/be customized - and I like that. A lot.