The d-b.com Community [Archive]

Vecter

06-27-2009, 11:26 PM

Obviously I have not been apart of this community for very long, or at least havent participated in many discussions, but I do have a concern. Perhaps it isn't much of one to be concerned with but it definitely appears to be an ongoing saga. Maybe I should just stfu :D

There are definite subjects not allowed on d-b.com and one is in regards to Tim Sullivan, who was banned because software he previously created actually violated Blizzards TOS/Eula. For obvisous reasons we can not support something like this as it could impact all of us in a negative way. Blizzard can easily come down on the community and say no more. Protecting the community is vital. However at the same time it becomes difficult to engage in discussions on other blogs, sites, forums, etc because a "he said/she said" begins and the flames start up. It either increases because of malicious posting (same person posting as multiple people) or facts are stretched to fit in the current perspective. I would feel we all could agree that this doesnt help our cause. Does it? A smaller concern is that it also doesnt help that one of our moderators is a developer of the most prominant software on this site. Completely justified as he helps pay the bills. But we must be careful as many perceptions could be easily manipulated that this site is run by Keyclone and therefore is biased towards other software and any negative opinions about other software is just slander to help pad Keylones product.

I am not suggesting at all that Keyclone remove his menu button or remove himself as moderator, thats not the point nor subject of this post. What I am asking is if external discussions should be a concern of the community or we just drop it and not worry about it? Do we participate in those discussions to try and protect the community? How can we move this community forward in a positive and productive way?

There are some very strong opinions on this board, from hardware boxing to the software used. That is all acceptable as more options and opinons the better as long as the discussion is done productively. What do others feel?

And please I am not starting this thread to begin a flame war but an open and honest discussion.

Note: You can read this thread on Wow.com which you can see very strong negative opinions are expressed (http://www.wow.com/2009/06/26/multiboxing-tv-lets-you-watch-multiboxing-as-it-happens/ ) and really is what brings me to this posting.

Kayley

06-27-2009, 11:56 PM

lol

it's actually a pretty good stream :P Too bad he was a bit of a ____ in the past.

But just dont worry about it. Nothing you can really do except .. go hardware ;)

Vecter

06-28-2009, 12:35 AM

zanthor

06-28-2009, 01:32 AM

Go look in the software forum - there is no bias here towards keyclone vs all of the FREE options. There are a bunch there. Way to create a "perceived" problem when there isn't on though.This is absolutely correct - Robs never said boo at a free product.

It took a LOT of discussion, and a LOT of work on many peoples parts to get IS and ISBoxer approved for discussion here. I can honestly say that I've questioned Robs motivations many times in the time I've been a member here, and I've always thought his being a moderator here was a poor decision for the community.

Gadzooks

06-28-2009, 01:36 AM

To the OP -
You sound like one of Evilseed's minions.

Go look in the software forum - there is no bias here towards keyclone vs all of the FREE options. There are a bunch there. Way to create a "perceived" problem when there isn't on though.

Bottom line is Evilseed/Mousecloner/and his 30 other user names ARE NOT ALLOWED HERE. PERIOD. Anything else is.Is that really that hard to understand?Why do many posts you make seem to encourage a flame war? At no time did I state any bias towards Keyclone, all I stated was it can be used as a bias in discussions such as the mentioned thread (which is was.) I even stated his presence on this site is completely justified. I totally understand Evilseed's banning on this site and I DID NOT STATE HE SHOULD BE ALLOWED. My concern was on OTHER sites that multiboxing is discussed and a negative perception is given to d-b.com should that be a concern as we want to promote a positive opinion about multiboxing in general.

Is that hard to understand?I watched his stream yesterday while doing some other things - that guy is a piece of work. He's completely full of himself, lies about his exeriences multiboxing (he's been playing "forever", but gets lost in every instance he goes in, and has no CLUE about abilities and classes), and he even went off on a little tirade about this site, and how the mods are "paid to promote KeyClone". Yeah, suuuure, Tim.

He's also promising the moon and stars with his website, pretty much claiming he'll have as much content as here - I would keep an eye out and make sure he doesn't copy and paste anything from here - and those who are posting stuff, put a sig line in that forbids copying under copyright laws. (It'll be another thing he'll never get to - he doesn't even have system requirements on his page, and is refusing to answer any questions like "Does this work in Windows 7?" (it doesn't seem to).

My biggest problem is that he is not allowing ANY discussion of other sites and other software in his stream, it's so one-sided it's ridiculous, and he's making claims about multiboxing that are simply not true - like how he's made "hundreds of thousands of gold" in instances, how easy it is, how hunters are the best teams, blah blah blah. He has some skills, but the issue is that he babbles endlessly while he's casting, and he spews nonsense. He claims his software is compliant, but he has not gotten an official thumbs up from Blizzard, and there are a few features that make me leery of risking my accounts. The software itself (which he hints he did not write, he hired others) seems okay, has some nice features, but I refuse to give him a dime, just for how he acted here.

Our biggest task here is to make sure any of the crap he's spewing about this site and any other are not believed, and countered when possible. We have an awesome community here and a wealth of information that is invaluable, and I don't want to see him become the "face of multiboxing".

Niley

06-28-2009, 01:48 AM

Seriously can threads about that asshole stop popping up? Is this his minions trying to promote him?
This guy is not only terrible at boxing, he has no clue about classes or the game. On top of that his software is overpriced piece of shit(and no Im not biased, I would pick any other software or even hardware boxing, over his software).
I agree with all the things that were said about him, Ive seen the discussion, his retarded secret emails etc.
Lets be done with this already.
And to OP, nice way trying to promote wow.com and his stuff through this, even if its not allowed, hope You get the banhammer.

Enndo

06-28-2009, 01:55 AM

Who cares what people on other sites say. There is a good old saying "Dont argue with idiots on the internet, theyll drag you down to their level and win with experience". And to the OP after recent posts that go on and on about this and similar subjects you shouldnt have started this post.

Sajuuk

06-28-2009, 02:00 AM

Wow...witch hunt much?

Although I do find it relatively suspicious that a 'newbie' would start a discussion on Senor Seed, when I'm sure you can find perfectly valid responses by (gasp) the search feature!

Where's my pitchfork?

Well...that's taken care of.

edit: /puts pitchfork away.

Vecter

06-28-2009, 03:06 AM

Wow pour on the gasoline and light the match to the newbie. I am amazed that a completely innocent question turned into a nice flame session. Is is expected that anyone new to have the knowledge and experience of someone who has been part of this community for much longer? Is it not expected to have questions or perhaps show concern if you come across stuff like the wow.com thread? My only concern here is with outside perception of d-b.com and what should/could be done, if anything. That's it, nothing more, nothing less. Obviously that was a mistake and I should just shut the hell up.

BTW just mentioning someone does not equal promoting (especially the fact that I said nothing positive about him) and to take it completely out of context and spin it that way is wrong.

Since I cant delete or lock this thread, I would suggest a mod lock or remove it as the intended purpose is lost.

Edit: BTW if you read the comments on the wow.com post you will notice that Svpernova tried to respond to it but got toasted numerous times, hence my concern and the start of this post. (I am fully aware that many of the posts on that thread could have been easily done by 1 person)

Niley

06-28-2009, 03:25 AM

You can easily edit first post just like you did to your last one and delete everything You said.

Svpernova09

06-28-2009, 03:29 AM

I think I can safely say Vecter isn't an Evilseed Minion.

IMO the d-b community is doing well. We just have a lot of users who have very strong opinions. But this is not a place to discuss who should, or should not be a moderator, (and I don't think that is for public discussion at all)

I replied a couple times to make sure a couple of points were clear, and I got roasted, but I really don't give a shit, because it's wowinsider, I don't have any respect for them to begin with. I was just doing my part to make sure misinformation was not being spread.

Gadzooks

06-28-2009, 04:45 AM

To the OP -
You sound like one of Evilseed's minions.

Go look in the software forum - there is no bias here towards keyclone vs all of the FREE options. There are a bunch there. Way to create a "perceived" problem when there isn't on though.

Bottom line is Evilseed/Mousecloner/and his 30 other user names ARE NOT ALLOWED HERE. PERIOD. Anything else is.Is that really that hard to understand?Why do many posts you make seem to encourage a flame war? At no time did I state any bias towards Keyclone, all I stated was it can be used as a bias in discussions such as the mentioned thread (which is was.) I even stated his presence on this site is completely justified. I totally understand Evilseed's banning on this site and I DID NOT STATE HE SHOULD BE ALLOWED. My concern was on OTHER sites that multiboxing is discussed and a negative perception is given to d-b.com should that be a concern as we want to promote a positive opinion about multiboxing in general.

Is that hard to understand?

WoW.com (formally wowinsider.com, one you linked in your original post) has been largely biased AGAINST multiboxing since day 1 - and they made that 110% crystal clear - and always have. You are doing nothing but stirring the pot here.

What's your point again, other than to give Tim Sullivan more publicity?Which is why it's hilarious that they have Turpster (from the old WoW Radio podcasts) GUSHING about multiboxing on their podcast for the last 3 weeks, going on about how much he's loving it, and you can hear the main guy's teeth grit as he controls himself from nerd raging against it. He then makes a few passive aggressive remarks, and changes the subject. I've never been much impressed with him, but now that Turpster is a regular, I'll listen, because the guy is hilarious.

It's also ironic that they have Michael Sacco writing there, who, when he was a WoW GM (Belfaire) of the Customer Support Forums, was VERY supportive of this community and multi-boxing in general, especially with Vindree's efforts to support us and our playstyle there.

They may find themselves in the sticky situation of their writers forcing them to support multiboxing, if they're not careful. :D

keyclone

06-28-2009, 04:54 AM

===
this keeps coming up... so i'll try to explain the circumstances that occurred. if this stokes the flames, i'll just remove it. this is meant as information to help understanding of the situation. it really isn't up for discussion at this point, so please don't
===

imagine this:
--
you spend 18 months building a community, tweaking the pages, addressing concerns, helping promote legal multi-boxing while cranking away to become #8 in the rankings. you run video streams on fridays, showing people how you take out something like 46 with your 5 shammies without breaking a sweat. the community has a spike of users, people are friendly, and the drama levels are low... if nonexistent.

that would be Ellay around march / april of last year (2008 ).

then imagine this:
--
you find a community with a lot of users and no ads. you realize you can sell the ad space if you can just get that community to move to your area. how would you do that? simple. infiltrate ... infuriate... frustrate... and then offer an alternative. this is how you get an entrenched community to move. then apply this to thotbot... offering wowhead as an alternative. no one was ready, and bang... you get the crowd, and sell out. you get bored... you see another commmunity that is starting to move in members... and no ads. untapped. you decide to contact the owner and see what happens next

that would be Tim around march / april of last year (2008 ).

he proceeds to contact the main contributors of the forums and the owner. we offer for him to join the community and help it grow. he goes on about his marketing contacts and how he could steal the community if he wanted to. he brags about what happened to thotbot. he demands 95% ownership of dual-boxing.com along with 85-90% rights of another companies product (Solid ICE and keyclone).

now... imagine you were offered 5% for something you built because you loved it and had too much fun with it. something you paid for out of your own pocket for the thousands of users. and now some tool walks up and tries to verbally strong arm it from you.

just how far would you tell him to shove it?

from that point, his forum assualt crew goes to work. infilitrating. infuriating. in comes the drama. the DDOS attacks happen only a couple of times, no way to prove anything, of course. drama continues. he tries to strongarm software from another contributor... the contributor tells him to shove it, and leaves... the software has been unsupported since. (this helps tim as he has successfully taken out a competitor). then comes his first piece of software. he pays some guy offshore to produce it. claims it is blessed by Blizzard. they balk and say no. he tries using multiple user names to talk up his product, like any good gold spammer... and gets punted / banned.

then comes the next bit of software. blant ripoff. no creativity. like this type of person cares. he tries mod'ing the wowwiki pages to boost himself... gets caught... wiki edit war ensues. it is decided by the wowwiki mods in an irc that he was being a douche, and they banned him for 30 days from wowwiki (link ('http://solidice.com/irc/wowwiki_irc_chat_09may2009a.txt') ). his response? he posts four(4) banner ads on the pages. meanwhile, once in a while someone with a low (<5) count comes in talking about his product... this is about visibility and getting his product associated with the established products of the community, thereby trying to get credibility. if anyone says anything, attack them.

this is how the game is played. don't think so? check out the digg page i had for keyclone (link ('http://digg.com/pc_games/keyclone_software_multiboxing_2') )... also check out his (link ('http://digg.com/pc_games/New_Multiboxing_Dual_Boxing_software_for_World_of_ Warcraft') ), and yes... he is also timgt

his latest ploy was to dupe a writer over on wow.com (link ('http://www.wow.com/2009/06/26/multiboxing-tv-lets-you-watch-multiboxing-as-it-happens/') )

we don't talk about his products because we don't want to give him the visibility or credibility. even if you talk about how bad is sux, that is still giving him some credit and will drive people to see it. in advertising... there is only one form of bad advertisement. it's not bad press or good press. NO press is bad advertisement.

this is WHY we ban conversations. even talking about this is driving attention in his direction.

i hope that explains it.

Khatovar

06-28-2009, 04:57 AM

What I am asking is if external discussions should be a concern of the community or we just drop it and not worry about it? Do we participate in those discussions to try and protect the community? How can we move this community forward in a positive and productive way?

"Try and protect the community" often degenerates rapidly when you step off your "turf" onto someone else's. This site has been around long enough and many of its' members long enough to create its own good name, we don't need to go elsewhere to protect that. It's a fine line between protecting your name and being percieved as overzealous and downright malicious. Once you start seeking out wrongs to right, especially in communities where people are looking for arguments and drama, most everything you try to do is going to end up counter-productive.

People who want information will end up here one way or another. The drama and assorted crap stirred up by trolls will die out when there's no one to feed the fire.

Vecter

06-28-2009, 05:05 AM

Moorea

06-28-2009, 05:19 AM

I was listening to his stream - he wants to make a web site basically to compete/replace d-b.com - and when I and another tried to point out some facts he removed the link and gave 10 min ban to one guy

He also said that the admins of d-b.com are circulating keyloggers and people should avoid coming to this site ! maybe someone can sue him for libel ?

He also said he wants to contact "the jamba guy" to "host jamba on his site" - I hope jafula will not fall for this

He didn't answer my question about whether people who already fell/paid for mou$ecloner are getting his new scam for free or not... probably not

Edit/update: And when I mentioned there are free alternatives (without even saying which ones); my message was purged and I got banned from the chat channel - how lovely...

Negativ1337

06-28-2009, 05:32 AM

Yeah well,

Basically he's like a 30 some year old programmer that thinks he got everything worked out and that he can get everyone to work for him.

I used PwnBoxer and its bad. Sometimes after pressing to pause key your clones are walking to some directions for no reasons (almost seems like the keys that you dont want to send: WASDQE he sends those after the pause, like he saves them up). The mousecloner feature isn't working. And he stole my idea for making a videoblog.

Enough smack for him, for the rest i think dual-boxing.com dont want any other multiboxing software promoting on their website because then Keyclone will have concurents. I can understand this but its kind of lame not giving anyone a chance. I mean, were part of an COMMUNITY if anyone makes a program or an addon its to help these guys browsing here out, and not to fight a war about it. Were like brothers, were not like America and Vietnam.

To all you guys thats gonna flame this, save the trouble since im not going to read this thread anymore.

Kind regards,

Negativ1337

keyclone

06-28-2009, 05:39 AM

My concern was on OTHER sites that multiboxing is discussed and a negative perception is given to d-b.com should that be a concern as we want to promote a positive opinion about multiboxing in general. if they want to know why he was banned (tim will say we were being mean) ... give them a link to what i said above

@Negative1337
read my post above if you actually want to understand.

as for 'competition' against keyclone on d-b.com, oh phuleeze. there are numerous other products. better products then his. more mature products than his. it has nothing to do with the product and everything to do with the individual and his intentions.

as for being a 'community'... one of the main rules for the community is not to post links to other multi-boxing forums, bleeding this community of its users.

keyclone

06-28-2009, 05:41 AM

Edit/update: And when I mentioned there are free alternatives (without even saying which ones); my message was purged and I got banned from the chat channel - how lovely... happened to me when i mentioned dual-boxing.com. insta-perma-ban (ip i think)

tim understands the concept of visibility and information spreading.

Tight

06-28-2009, 05:53 AM

Gurb, bring me some popcorn.

This subject is coming up almost every day more or less.. Why do we spend time arguing about some jerk named Tim. Every one knows hes a fakk up.
Why not argue about something ells? take taxes for example. Or where the fakk is aXXo ?( Or the fact that they cut the tendons in the neck and chop off arms of the children in Africa, just so they cant use a rifle.
(ok i know im far away now from the subject) :pinch:

This whole discussion has been blown out of proportion. How hard is it to just leave it alone? At least a few weeks?
Sure it could be missdirecting the new ppl, but hey this discussion has been out there for a long time.

BE AWARE OF BOGUS SITES AND LAMERS.
(sry just had to do that)

Moorea

06-28-2009, 06:17 AM

I think one of the issues is putting one's head in the sand will not make tim's misrepresentations go away and there is a real risk he would capture a lot of people who will not do enough research - so maybe having upfront information about him and what he does would be better - though it would only be better if on his sites he would be honnest enough to mention this one without lying... which is very unlikely - so I'm not sure how to win this battle... but again, making this an isolated island is probably not the way to go

F9thRet

06-28-2009, 07:28 AM

Well, All I can say, is at times I have used Keyclone, Hotkey.net ,and octopus, all recomended here.

I have even talked to Keyclone a few times on the phone, so he could help me with a software change, or new Max layout. I think it's clear where my loyalties lie. Tim is just a slug, pour some salt on him and he melts away, only to come back as some other kind of Invertabrate.

SuperNova, Keyclone, and the others, Thanks for what you do, and for giving us a place to discuss and find solutions to our Multi-boxing Situations.

Stephen up way to early in the middle of nowhere.

Flekkie

06-28-2009, 11:20 AM

As a relative newcomer to these forums, I really appreciate Keyclone's comments in post # 15.

Until now, I have taken things on trust, although it is easy to do so. Knowing the backstory puts me right behind the d-b regulars here.

I don't dare offer advice, I always get stuff like this wrong when I do, but good luck all. I hate misinformation worse that most other things when it comes to open multiboxing 'discussions'.

Gadzooks

06-28-2009, 12:18 PM

BTW just mentioning someone does not equal promoting (especially the fact that I said nothing positive about him) and to take it completely out of context and spin it that way is wrong.

Any publicity (good or bad) is still publicity.

And yes, I come off harsh. That's just me. Nobody said you had to like it. ;)Mebbe, but you get used to it. :D

Me, I take the other side - he's doing his best to try and corner the market on Multiboxing, and he can do some serious damage if his software does turn out to violate the TOS, and a bunch of people get permabanned. The word HAS to go out to stay clear of his products, because he cannot prove his software is 100% legit with Blizzard.

He's also capable of completely distorting the public's view of what we do - I heard him making claims that are simply not true, like making hundreds of thousands of gold farming instances, how you will
"pwn" every bg you enter, blah blah blah. He claims his software makes MBing "easy", which we all knows is a completely bogus claim. It's easy at lower levels, but when you start hitting the harder content, it takes real work. He himself I noticed is failing hard now that he's running BRD and above - and all of sudden now he's going to start a new team. How convenient. Why not show players how much work clearing Sekketh Halls is, Tim? Hmmm?

He also sucks ass at macro writing.

After reading KeyClone's post, I get what he's doing, and who he is. He's a scumbag. He's a leech. I followed some links and read the interview where he discussed selling WoWhead - he sold to a company that owns gold farming and selling companies. He got his blood money, off the hard work of Thottbot, and people's stolen accounts. Fuck HIM. KeyClone is right, he's trying to jack what WE built, and he needs to be told to go fuck himself. I laughed at all of the comments on WoW.com how he's not advertising "that much" - it's a constant advertisment for his software! He's also using the viewers, he constantly tells the viewers to go to WoW related sites and post links to the video - he's fairly obsessed about that, and he's very obsessed with how many viewers he has, and favorites.

The only good thing is the real channels on Justin.tv get 1000% more viewers than he does, the Fallout 3 channels are packed. (And after watching one, I am getting Fallout 3 - that game rocks!) The Ulduar channels get thousands of viewers to his average of 200-300.

Staying silent will let him win. Trust me on this. That has played out in corporate America for decades, with the jackals winning. Tim is yet another late night pitchman who just sees a quick buck, and we need to stand up for the playstyle we've developed, supported and worked for. I do not want to see him cause problems with it, and give Blizzard a cause for concern. He's advertising multiboxing in ways that will attract the wrong sort, and that's bad, because ultimately it effects all of us.

Sam DeathWalker

06-28-2009, 02:37 PM

Well lol ... I sure all the above could be said of Bill Gates also and Intel.

Ok so he is agressive. Ya I would be kinda insulted to be offered 5percent and you wisely refused, such a small amount, but realy he does seem to know how to market, and you have to admit he did a number on Throttbot to his own profit.

In every field you have people who see it a job to make money and others who do it for the love of doing it. About 100 percent of the people here are not out to make a profit, but thats not saying there is anything wrong with makeing a profit - Blizzard does it.

Lets take Jamba as an example. Great software for sure but could be a lot better, hasn't been updated for 3.1 yet. Great Product but not professional like Carbonite. If Jamba was handled by soemone like Tim money would come in so that the writer of Jamba could spend a lot more time writing better code and more features instead of earning monies in other ways. Really whats wrong with that. 5 pecent (actually any resonable deal would be 50/50) of 10K is a lot more then 100 percent of zero.

Carbonite is a perfect example of what money can do to help an add on. It destroys all the "free" compeitors (well its free now also).

Tim is advertizing everywhere; DB has no income and thus can't advertize .... Sure all the people in the know come here now but ...

Google was a blantent rip off of Alta Vista, Windows first version was a rip off of cpm, WoW ripped off EQ. ...... The lesson there is that marketing beats engineering.

Well if he is banning you from his streams/forums I guess I can't really claim you shouldn't ban him; its just kinda sad how this has reached this point.

Keep in mind that most everyone cept me was against Lax initially but he has turned out to be an active member and positive supporter of the foums and the community.

I say take the high road and let TS post, show him you are better then he is. Or cut him a 50/50 deal and sell out and turn DB into a profesisonal product. DB has the eginerring abilities and best poducts; TS has the marketing BS ... those are stong combinations when put together, weak when seperate.

Oppotunity does not last forever.

Gomotron

06-28-2009, 02:42 PM

Sam are you using the-software-that-dare-not-be-named?

If so, that makes a lot of sense. If not, then you are merely trolling.

Sam DeathWalker

06-28-2009, 02:48 PM

I use:

Keyclone
Jamba
Macaroon

as my core non hardware stuffs.

I also use:

Arkinventory
Chatter
Elkbuffbars
Hitsmode
Informant
Jamba
Macaroon
Postal
Simple Minimap
Tiptack
Titan
Xperl

On main I also have:
Autioneer
Carbonite
Gladius (just trying it out might not keep)

I belive that innerspace might be superior to Keyclone but I dont ahve the time to set it up. Keyclone does what I need so why change. And as stated Keyclone customer support is 2nd to none.

Moorea

06-28-2009, 04:03 PM

I sure hope tim never gets his dirty hands on jamba - and I don't think jamba could use his "help" at all - jamba is great as is and while there's been a tiny slowdown lately in updates because jafula had real life things to take care of - it still works very very well, including with 3.1 so not sure what sam is trolling about there

keyclone

06-28-2009, 04:42 PM

Sam DeathWalker

06-28-2009, 10:37 PM

You are supporting someone who is out to screw people over and could give two shits about the actual players of the game we all love so much.

The owner of this site, the writer of Jamba and Keyclone are making basically zero for their efforts. All these products could be improved if they had money coming in that would allow them to spend more time on what they love and less time on what they do to make money.

Improved products benifit all wow players.

You prefer these people to have no income from their labors on WoW? Do you have a faster or better way for them to generate cash, or you feel that no one should make money from WoW except Blizzard (I note you don't claim that Blizzard is evil for makeing a profit).

All these things he is accused of are underhanded business tactics used by Bill Gates and Intel and tons of other sucessfull individuals and compainies.

Only the really really stupid overlook benificial business opportunity based upon who you are dealing with.

Do you agree or deny that TS is good at marketing? If he is good then why not partner with the best?

Or at any rate start up some kind of revenue stream somehow from someplace.

Who would claim that if Jamba programer put in 1000 hours more that Jamba would not be a super kick ass product way way better then it is now?

People have to eat, provide Jafula with the money to take care of needs and then time would open up for more programing.

TS is not out to "screw people over" he out to maximize his income even at the expense of others. But if you tie your income to his income then you have a tiger working for you.

Although some would prefer to be broke and just work when they want, well fine. But don't cry big tears when the "money guy who screws people over" just pays another programer to write product better then yours.

No one can pay me to say anything cause I have more money then most anyone who plays wow......

keyclone

06-28-2009, 10:43 PM

Only the really really stupid overlook benificial business opportunity based upon who you are dealing with.or those with integrity.

as for making money on this site, that would require either a) membership fees or b) ads.
ads were tried and (some) users balked

are you saying ads are ok? (i have been saying this to Ellay for a while... and it may still be in the cards)

Starbuck_Jones

06-28-2009, 10:46 PM

lol Jesus sam!

You make some valid if not unpopular points ill say that, But I don't want to see your name at the top of the new sticky. Your "doing it wrong" posts make me laugh so much.

Sam DeathWalker

06-28-2009, 10:52 PM

Of course adds are OK lol ... I mean common adds make money, money can be used to make a better product. Who does not benifit in that case? Users get a better user experience as a result of adds.

Look at Carbonite vs. Questhelper. One had money behind them and the other didn't.

Well integraty comes at the price of not making a superior product for the game that you love.

you make some valid if not unpopular points ill say that

You mean I say things how they actually are rather then what people prefer to hear.....

Its not that anyone is "doing it wrong" there are lots of way to get to the same place its that in general you don't refuse to deal on a business basis with your enemies. Well buy and sell products to Germany and Japan even though they have done us mightly wrong, we would be really really stupid not to. Have we lost Integrity because we are business partners with those who killed and tortured us in the past? I don't see how.

Tasty

06-28-2009, 10:59 PM

If he is good then why not partner with the best?

Cause he'd screw the community over the first chance he gets to make more money?

Cause he doesn't care about the community and would likely damage everything we've worked for in the process of making himself rich?

Cause he uses strong arm tactics on the internet? <-- This ones pretty lolable if you ask me. The guy thinks hes The Godfather lol :p

Or at any rate start up some kind of revenue stream somehow from someplace.

This as I believe, is a 'free' community. Its open to anyone and everyone, a place where we can help each other learn and have fun etc etc. That being said, you must have noticed the lack of adds. I realise that Ellay probably paid a substantial bulk of the fees but there are definately others who have donated to keep this place free from all that crap (thanks Ellay :) so don't think there isnt a revenue stream, even if its minuscule. I like to think the aim here is to promote knowledge and have fun not to charge people for playing the game a certain way.

TS is not out to "screw people over"

he out to maximize his income even at the expense of others.

You do realise these two statements are pretty much the same thing right?

Sam DeathWalker

06-28-2009, 11:04 PM

Tasty

06-28-2009, 11:11 PM

So you don't really agrue that he is not good at marketing ....

Well anyway I am sure he is not the only game in town; Im just saying in general keep all your options open and that getting some income helps everyone.

If your income is tied to his then as he maximizes his income you maximize yours.... Im talking a 50/50 type deal not some 95/5 nonsense.

Which is better Thottbot or Wowhead? ....

This as I believe, is a 'free' community. Its open to anyone and everyone, a place where we can help each other learn and have fun etc etc

You don't mind paying Blizzard for fun, why would you object to paying Ell for the same?

What makes you think I mind paying Ell? I donated $130 last year, its not much but its something. And I'm not paying to USE a product otherwise I would have paid for something like keyclone instead of using a free alternative. I'm paying to keep the place the way it is. Free of adds, free for all people looking to learn and free of people like whats his face who would gladly ravage everything that we've worked for (yes I said we, I realise I myself haven't really done much :P)

If Ell started charging to use the site, I'd stop coming here (No offense Ell!) I come here cause its free and friendly. Not so I can pay a monthly fee login and look over information that should be available for free.

Just to clarify Sam I understand where you're coming from. I'm all for people finding a niche and turning a profit from it but this is OUR niche and I like it just the way it is.

Sajuuk

06-28-2009, 11:16 PM

Quoting from the Douche Bag thread.

he proceeds to contact the main contributors of the forums and the owner. we offer for him to join the community and help it grow. he goes on about his marketing contacts and how he could steal the community if he wanted to. he brags about what happened to thotbot. he demands 95% ownership of dual-boxing.com along with 85-90% rights of another companies product (Solid ICE and keyclone).

Emphasis mine.

Stealthy

06-29-2009, 12:00 AM

So you don't really agrue that he is not good at marketing ....

Well anyway I am sure he is not the only game in town; Im just saying in general keep all your options open and that getting some income helps everyone.

If your income is tied to his then as he maximizes his income you maximize yours.... Im talking a 50/50 type deal not some 95/5 nonsense.

Which is better Thottbot or Wowhead? ....

This as I believe, is a 'free' community. Its open to anyone and everyone, a place where we can help each other learn and have fun etc etc

You don't mind paying Blizzard for fun, why would you object to paying Ell for the same?
The idea that everything becomes better once you turn it into a commercial entity is flawed. The primary goal of running any kind of business is to make money - everything else becomes secondary. Tim's problem is that making money is ALL he is concerned about, and as his actions to date have shown, he will happily screw over the whole DB community to get it.

The non-commercial nature of DB is one of the things that makes this such a great website - it means that the promoting and discussing multiboxing always remains the primary goal.

You know what makes Wowhead better than Thott? Contribution from its users...

Cheers,

S.

Ellay

06-29-2009, 12:09 AM

Ya I've had tons of opportunity to make money off the users here. Do I take that route even though it would benefit me personally? No. I dislike sites with ads, and I understand they are part of a business model if you want to make your income that way. I enjoy this web site being at free, and it's not just "my" site. Everyone contributes to making it good, it's a community and that's all I wanted from the get go.

Not to spring off on a tangent here, but all the silly politics going on that some users think that there is bias here for this or that.. there is nothing going on in the back end. As long as your a nice person or if your mean at least pretend to be nice then there really isn't an issue :) Don't let what anyone says ruffle your feathers, were just here to learn and talk about multiboxing, nothing more :)

Ken

06-29-2009, 05:42 AM

new thread created to help people understand the situation better. the top posts will be edited as more info comes along.

link: *Douche Bags* banned members and why ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=22954')

please refer people to that thread if they ever ask.

I suggest to leave the "douche bags" part away. It's completely unnecessary and hints to emotional moderation instead of subjective reasoning.

Multibocks

06-29-2009, 10:19 AM

Tonuss

06-29-2009, 10:48 AM

Enough smack for him, for the rest i think dual-boxing.com dont want any other multiboxing software promoting on their website because then Keyclone will have concurents. I can understand this but its kind of lame not giving anyone a chance. I mean, were part of an COMMUNITY if anyone makes a program or an addon its to help these guys browsing here out, and not to fight a war about it. Were like brothers, were not like America and Vietnam.

To all you guys thats gonna flame this, save the trouble since im not going to read this thread anymore.
I wish people wouldn't do this, make a bunch of claims and then say 'don't bother responding, I'm not going to read it.' I think it's better not to have written the post at all, if you did not want people to respond. And if you do not plan to return and read the replies, then there's no need to inform us. It's as if you're demanding to be given the last word.

As for the point about Keyclone, there is discussion about many other software applications that help out multiboxers. I use both keyclone and Jamba, and as far as I know KC has nothing to do with Jamba and vice-versa. As far as I know, only two programs are forbidden from discussion here and that is because they either violate the TOS or they pose enough of a risk that the guys who run the site don't want to promote them. There was a person who started a discussion recently about his own multiboxing software, and after an initial unfriendly reaction he has been accepted as far as I can tell. If the idea was to use this site to promote keyclone, then they would block all other software, not just the risky ones.

I don't worry about the multiboxing community, here or anywhere else. I like this site because I like the people here. As long as that is the case, I'll participate in this forum and not worry about what anyone else is doing. I gave up on "forum wars" or "community wars" years ago, and don't waste my time with them these days.

Tonuss

06-29-2009, 11:14 AM

Sam, I understand where you are coming from with most of your points. I'm a capitalist at heart, and have nothing against someone wanting to make money from their labors. Sure, people want everything to be free... except for anything that they make money from themselves. I appreciate that the owners of this site have decided to keep the site free to use, but would not be upset if they made it a pay site. I'd rather pay for the site than have it disappear for lack of funds, after all. However, this part:

All these things he is accused of are underhanded business tactics used by Bill Gates and Intel and tons of other sucessfull individuals and compainies.

I have to disagree with. I think that there is a difference between being ambitious and ruthless, and with being underhanded or even criminal. It may be true that a lot of successful people and companies got where they were by putting aside ethics and morals (and in some cases, the law). But I wouldn't want to use them as an example of who to emulate. That's effectively saying that "crime pays."

I am in support of the decision to remove from the community a guy who was acting the way that Ellay and Keyclone described, particularly if he was threatening to undermine your community in order to build his. I don't think the community needs people who draw boundaries and try to undermine a community and call it "marketing."

Vecter

06-29-2009, 11:39 AM

No one reads the stickies anyways. As for the first post of this thread... is that not a classic example of someone coming in and stirring the pot?? All under the guise of saving d-b.com community. Newish poster? Check. Flame worthy post? Check. Calling Mods into question? Check. Ok that's three, he's outta here.

Here I got an idea, let the guys who run this site... run it. Damn that was HARD to figure out.Well like I have stated my intention was only to ask about how we can continue to put d-b.com in the best light possible when I, or you, or anyone who cares, comes across posts on other wow related sites that create a negative perception about d-b.com and multi-boxing. I had no desire to have this turn into a discussion about the unmentionable, software authors, ethics, or anything else. My involvement in including the unmentionable in the discussion was only because of the thread mentioned which I do realize was a fatal mistake. It derailed my intention and for that I apologize.

Sure we can just let those in charge of d-b.com run the site and handle it all on their own, but I feel as a community we come down with one hand and lead together.

Note: I am not sure where you got "calling mods into question" from my post and if that was your perception please understand that was in no way the intention.