5 druids, no moonkins/tree efficient in any way?

[unseen]

I was just curious if anyone had tried a team composition of 5 druids with one being a bear for tanking with 4 followers who would all dps and heal. If so, how well does this work?

I like the idea of the typical tank + 4 shamans (where all 4 heal and dps), and am curious how viable this kind of setup is for druids.

I understand this is a less than efficient team considering no moonkin/tree aura, additional armor, etc, but how much less efficient is it? I'm thinking from a purely PvE standpoint, not PvP.

[Owltoid]

I'm almost positive someone is doing tank + 4 moonkins w/o a dedicated healer and having success.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I'm running bear + 3 moonkins + tree. I've tried it both ways and while you can indeed do 4 casters throwing out the oddball heals every now and then, it's much less efficient than just having a tree (by efficient I mean being able to maintain both heals and DPS over a really long fight). Plus you don't get a spammable AoE heal unless you get wild growth, so you're relying on a 10-minute CD for each aoe heal. Not a great option, especially if it's an extended fight that needs a lot of minor aoe healing throughout the fight. Honestly, though, that's mostly theorycraft as I didn't really try the 4x DPS + ghetto heals for long, and I've only done heroics and L80 instances with bear/tree setup.

Rejuvenation (identical gear; ~1750sp): moonkin = 1050ish/tick; resto(in caster form) = 1338/tick; resto in tree form = 1543/tick
[edit] Same druid, same gear. With moonkin/imp. moonkin aura = 1800sp; w/o moonkin = 1500sp. That's significant.

Another point to consider. Caster = 3237af (-17.5% dmg taken); Moonkin = 14637af (-49% dmg taken). Granted it's physical mitigation only, but think of it like having a mage with no AF buff, no ice block, no frost barrier and no mana shield. VERY squishy indeed. Example: in heroic Gundrak, when the rhino gores one of the moonkins, he'll take 30% dmg, which I tend to largely ignore. If the tree gets gored, it's like 65% of his health BAM. Huge difference when you're trying to gear up in terms of being more forgiving on mistakes.

A final point: glyphs. Can glyph both heals and DPS for the most part. You could but you're missing a sizable bonus either way there.

Ya know, I might just have to go respec my guys to some hybrid balance/resto spec minus moonkin and try it just to see what happens. My curiosity is piqued now.

[Ualaa]

Dual specialization is a consideration.
Each spec has its own set of glyphs.

I'd imagine they'd all be (deep) Balance with some Resto .
For dailies, battlegrounds etc.

One would be a tank as their second spec.
One would be a tree as their second spec.

Mix and match as you need.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

As a follow-up, IMO the setup with 4 druids as combination caster/healer is great for stacking tons of HoTs on a tank but sucks for just about everything else. Fights in heroic gundrak were taking about 30% longer than with just 3 Moonkin and a tree, and I died on trash a few times due to the sucktastic armor of caster form. Not to mention having mana issues where I didn't before.

Enjoy trying it yourself but I think I found out what I wanted to know about it and will definitely not be using that setup.

[Flekkie]

I only took my 5 druids to 60 so far (and left 4 of them there), but a bear tank was quite good in instances, and healing was really very good when spread across all 4 other toons. (I leveled them 15->60 in instances only and they were my 1st multibox experience.)

However, I had two problems:
1) Casting a healing spell knocked them out of moonkin form.
2) Deciding whether to interrupt the DPS spell in order to start an emergency heal. (I can't remember how/if I dealt with this one atm.)

I suppose if I try this way again, I might try only one in moonkin form. I thought you only need one moonkin aura anyway, but ughmyheadhurtz made an interesting comment about survivability and mana that I didn't know about.

Bear tank + DPS moonkin + 3 combined DPS/Healer?
or..
Moonkin tank + 4 combined DPS/Healerform? (Dont forget that Moonkin gets good armour & health bonus)

If I do it, I will probably try Moonkin Tank, to see if Moonkin can hold threat against combined DPS/Healing spread over other toons. Talents + thorns + choice of spell (eg FF etc) might give enough of a gap for this to work well, but I have not actually tried it before.
There is an interesting article about tanking as moonkin here: http://forums.wow-europe.com/thread.html?topicId=305842304&sid=1


Instancing 15->60 with combined DPS/Healers the effect was very nice. 4xHOTs plus 4xsmall heals plus round-robin 'oh-sh1t' buttons made it very good, and the healing aggro was never a problem because it was spread out. It was also a nice way to learn multiboxing, since I only had to split my thoughts 2 ways instead of 3.
It sounds like that might not hold true 60->70->80, dunno. My new team is mid 70's, and I don't have experience of LK instances.

[Edit: lol at number of edits :p ]

[Ualaa]

Pretty much... 5x Balance/Resto, with a lot more points into Balance is the primary spec.
Three of the druids would have this as their only spec.
I say three, assuming a full 5 box group.

One of the druids would also be a Bear tank.
One of the druids would also be a Resto tree.

There are a lot of situations where you don't need a tank or dedicated healer.
In these situations, 5x the dps is preferable.
Dailies and Battlegrounds will be much smoother.
In other cases, heroics for example, a tank and a dedicated tree healer will make the experience much easier.

Because of dual spec's, it is not an either / or choice.
You can have the best of both worlds.
Go with Ugh's advice on a tank/healer and 3x dps for heroics, it is so much easier.
But have the option for 2x druids dps extra, when you don't need the survivability.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Im currently playing a paladin and 4 druids. I leave the 4 druids in caster form and do the rolling ghetto heal over times. I spent a LOT of time working on my macros to the point where I can one button smash for 99% of all occasions. I also built it modular with /click. So if im running a lower instance and dont need heals. I can just 'unplug' the healing button for 3 of my toons. In heroics I have to have all 4 going and in high end non heroics 2 healers are all I need.

Its quite easy the way I have it set up to do this. I use my 2 sidebars and just change the macro how I need by moving or removing spots. Im sure im gimping myself by not useing moonkin form, but so far it hasnt been a big issue and its going quite well.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I spent a LOT of time working on my macros to the point where I can one button smash for 99% of all occasions.
Poast said macros or the kitty gets it! :P

On a sorta related note, I tried just making two trees and two moonkin for one of my more difficult heroic fights today. 2x wild growth = win.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Ok. Here is basics of my 1 button does it all macro. Im at work so I cant just cut and paste so forgive me if any of the syntax is wrong.

Button 2 is my outside world questing and low end instance trash killing button. (no dot's) Placing of this key fits nice with my hand to hit the tab key to target and spam this key w/o having to move my hand.
Button 5 is my Instance smashing button I use for all Heroics and Any bosses or group quest elites. (dot's)

I use a stacking /click macro to manage all the timings for DOT's and HOT's I have dedicated on my druids their entire Right side vertical action bar for this.

So their basic macro bound to key 2 is:
/click MultiBarRightButton1
/click MultiBarRightButton12

Key 5 looks like
/click MultiBarRightButton1
/click MultiBarRightButton9
/click MultiBarRightButton10
/click MultiBarRightButton11
/click MultiBarRightButton12

Button1 is my base targeting and trinket macro. Any conditional targeting is going to go here for bosses and stuff. This is nice because any new macro I may make I can just put /click MultiBarRightButton1 at the start and I'm done.
/use13
/use14
/assist sbjones
/target frost tomb
/target chaotic rift

Button9 (4th from the bottom) is my Tank healing macro. This one is a bit different for each druid, but the concept should be easy to follow. The commas introduce delays so if you just cut and paste this it may not work to your button smashing speed. Each druids macro is a derivitive of this.
/target sbjones
/castsequence reset=10 Lifebloom,Rejuvenation,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,Lifebloom,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,
/assist sbjones

So all 4 druids macros look something like
Lifebloom,Rejuvenation,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,Lifebloom,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,
,,,, ,,,,Lifebloom,Rejuvenation,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,Lifebloom,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,
,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,Lifebloom,Rejuvenation,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,Lifebloom,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,
,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,Lifebloom,Rejuvenation,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,Lifebloom,,,, ,,,,

This makes it so each druid will keep one stack of lifebloom and rejuvenation on my tank at all times. Once it gets going he will have 8 HOT's and a Bloom trigger every 2 seconds. The only time I have been killed with all 4 "ghetto" healing is if I dont watch their mana and im on my 3rd pull or something and I go OOM. Now what makes this nice is if im in an instance where I dont need as much healing. I simply drag this macro off of button 9 and move it over to the other action bar. Right now in high end non heroics like Culling of Stratholme I only have 2 druids with this button activated and its more than enough to get me through all the trash and bosses.

Button 10 is my Moonfire
/castsequence reset=10 Moonfire,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,

I have it glyped with starfire so it can have its duration extended 9 additional seconds. There are enough commas for it to go 21 seconds before refreshing. It can go longer but an unlucky string of Wrath casting can cause it to fall off early and it seems to happen more often than you think.

Button 11 is my Insect Swarm and self heal macro
/castsequence reset=10 Insect Swarm ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,, ,,,,Lifebloom

With the self cast option on in the bios they should always heal themselves every 15ish seconds with a lifebloom, This gets the job done for 99% of trash and about 80% of bosses. Some bosses that have special AOE's and stuff require a bit more healing than a single life bloom but thoes are rare cases as normaly they dont take any dammage as they should not have agro. But this takes out the hastle of having to pay attention to them getting to thoes rare bosses that do.

Button 12 is my main DPS nuker. Short and sweet.
/castrandom Starfire,Wrath

So if you look at my number 2 macro its basicaly:
/use13
/use14
/assist sbjones
/target frost tomb
/target chaotic rift
/castrandom Starfire,Wrath

Should be easy to see what ive done here. Now here is the thing that gives this setup a HUGE advantage of a single long cast sequence is Haste procs. If you proced haste with a old fashioned castsequence you blew through the starfire and wrath spells a lot faster than you should have and it caused you to refresh DOT's and all that much earlier. Now if haste procs or you get new haste gear, it doesnt affect the DOT's or HOT's. you will dynamicaly get more /castrandom Starfire,Wrath castings off. Also this last castrandom gets you past the server lag verification that plagues castsequence. Also it does a decent job of makeing use of eclipse procs.

I have a long post in the macro forums where I complained about piss poor DPS
Druid DPS and Heal macro help ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=204530&highlight=#post204530')

When I was going through all that I could get about 900-1200dps on a target dummy. After I got this macro down (w/o tank healing) I could get an easy 1500-1600 with spikes as high as 1900dps. Adding in the tank healing bit looses about 100-150dps for 3 instant cast spells every 15 seconds.

Edit: My paladin has his 969 macro set to the same keys.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Interesting. With these macros, my DPS took a huge nosedive. Like averaging 1700-1800dps over an instance on 3 moonkin to 900-1100 on each of the 4. It trivialized the golem/elemental fight in gundrak for the most part but I cannot kill Gal'darah with that setup, where he was easy with the tree+moonkin. I also have more trouble with Moorabi with the 4x hybrids, and Eck actually managed to enrage on me twice today.

Not sure what I'm gonna do about that. Needs more thinking.

[Mamut]

I tend to use the bear/tree/3moonkins since i bought dual spec for each of my druids. When i feel like playing 4 dps/tank i hop on my shamans and destroy some heroics. The druids can do it but i dont think they do it as well as the shamans.

The tree druids heals are just much better over all, and the moonkins can go all out giving them a higher dps. I havent logged anything these are just my general impressions of my heroic runs. Using the trinity I have cleared all but occulus (haven't tried yet). Using the 4 dps i got frustrated after running HoL heroic. Wild Growth really makes some fights easy mode, such as the 3rd and 4th bosses in HOL.

Either way as long as your tank is in some ok gear you can clear any and all heroics with a little effort. As has been mentioned with dual spec you can then pop over to 5 moonkin for some good times in Bg's or Wintersgrasp or 5 tree/resto to be really annoying to kill.

[Stealthy]

I'm running 5 druids - the main dual-spec'd as feral (bear) and moonkin, and the other 4 of moonkin. I also run another team with a dk tank and 4 ele shams.

For PvE, the 5 druid team are quite viable - I haven't had any trouble clearing heroics with them. The fights are typically more healing intensive, since you don't have healing stream providing the passive 1K/tick, and no grounding totems to eat incoming spells. However druids bring a few goodies to the fight with Treants every 3 mins, Starfall every 90 secs and great AoE in the form of Hurricane. Tranquility is a great "oh crap" AoE heal, and having 4 available is gold. The only trouble I have is on boss fights where adds spawn during the fight - without an AOE agro generating ability like Death and Decay or Consecrate, you have to be quick on your toes to pick them up before they get to your other toons.

For PvP, druids definitely fall behind Shamans IMO. The the main drawbacks are:
- lack the burst compared to what the shamans can put out
- vulnerable to AoE fear
- have to drop form to heal

Cheers,
S.

[Starbuck_Jones]

Ugg, I can see where your moonkins would see a bigger drop in DPS than I would. I have yet to take on any content in moonkin form, I do not even have the improved aura speced.... So in a normal cycle say 21 seconds with my above macro set, in full healing mode they will cast 4 instant HOT's per cycle. 3 on the tank and 1 on themselves. Remove haste from the equation and that comes to 6 seconds of global cool downs that your not dps'ing or a good 25%+ of your DPSing time. Also for you, you loose out on the 5% crit and SPI to SpellPower buff from moonkin aura. Thats a lot of dps. (if your normal moonkin lost a lot of dps, how much dps did your tree who now is dpsing add? You may not have lost as much as you think overall)

Prolly what I need to do and may help you as well, is if you dont need 4 caster form healers, Moonkin up the ones that do not need to heal and get the aura/spi buff back. Or use your current setup and when you come across a boss where this works well, Just Shift-Up-Arrow to a different hotbar that has quad caster healing setup.

My setup is grossly innefficiant as well. At the end of instances they have overhealed sometimes in the 200-300k range or about 30-40%. Some heroics I have tried to not use all 4 healing, but right now I dont have the gear and mitigation to survive with out so most of that overhealing is from the end of fights where everything is dead and the next 8 seconds your full HP's and all the HOT's are still going and 4 blooms go off for a ton of overhealing. I use innervate on almost every boss fight because of this where in the past healing manualy I didn't even have that spell macroed up. I am also only useing 2 diff heal spells for all my heal needs and the druid has an arsenal of healing. So yea, fights are going to take longer, I have to drink more often than I really like, but ive also taken on some stuff that I prolly wasnt ready for with my l74-76 quest gear.

What its really good for though is keeping my group alive w/o any micro management of heals, targeting, or DPS.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

lol...we're on the same page. :P With regards to the DPS drop, the new improved moonkin is +30% of spirit as spellpower on TOP of the 5% crit. My moonkins in imp. moonkin spec sit at about 1800sp, where without it they're somewhere around 1450ish. So those two combined make for quite a boost. I may have to re-enable recount and pull up the group DPS graph and compare the two. It might be less than I'm thinking but the fights do take longer (especially considering Eck's enrage timer as a benchmark).

Just hafta find enough glyphs to switch specs for those fights. My offspec is feral (which I don't use anymore) so I can just replace that with full moonkin spec for the fights where it works better.

More options = GOOD. :)

Cheers,
Ugh

[Ualaa]

I really like the idea of passively having HoT's on the tank and non-tanks, as part of your dps rotation.
It may not be the most efficient use of mana, but it sure simplifies things, and keeps the team up in a lot of situations.