x1Pally x4 Shaman, or a mixed team? (For PvE)

[EaTCarbS]

Yarg! here be my dilemma:

Recently leveled 5 shamans to 80 for some pvp action... then felt the urge to drop any previous pvp aspirations I previously had :pinch:

So, I'm sitting here organizing my pve team, and cant decide what toons to use. I'm looking at 2 setups:

1 prot pally
3 elemental shamans
1 resto shaman

or....

1 prot pally
1 elemental shaman
1 boomkin
1 hunter
1 resto shaman

Any advice? :D

[Zal]

Prot pally and 4 shaman

[Powerwar]

Prot paly and 4 shaman.

With the new dual spec patch I suggest you to try 1 prot paly and 4 resto shamans rotating heals.
It's slow as hell, but it's really funny because you can down 10 man raid content with this setup... the overheal is so much that your pally will never die whatever you do.

I tested in on tempest keep trash at lvl 70 just fore the laughs... still not reached lvl 80 with my group, but I guess that it will be not very different in naxx 10

[shaeman]

Another vote for the Prot Pally, unless you have any tanking capable alternative 80's already (and don't have a pally), in which case use that.

Basically do the bare minimum to get a tank for the 4 shamans, then you can expend your efforts in PVE content, rather than having to level up some toons for a while.

[Natch]

Pally + 4 Shammies ftw

[KvdM]

With the new dual spec patch I suggest you to try 1 prot paly and 4 resto shamans rotating heals.
It's slow as hell, but it's really funny because you can down 10 man raid content with this setupMost Naxx bosses simply go in berserk if you don't kill them within a certain time limit (probably to prevent people from solo-ing them), so I wouldn't count on 5 manning Naxx with it.

[Bigfish]

Patch can be solo tanked if your tank is geared enough and the heals are kept up. Only if you have no melee DPS though.

[Ken]

It's funny how people suggest chosing a paladin with 4 shamans, but they don't tell you why.

I used to have 4 shamans and a tank and it sucks compared to a multi-class group, because:
- 4 PvE characters from the same class are very difficult to gear, because they all share the same gear. It's almost 4 times slower!
- Characters from the same class share the same skills. Granted, multiple shamans give you lots of totems to chose from, but you miss other awesome buffs and skills that other classes have.
- If a boss has full resistance against a specific type of damage(e.g. nature damage) it will make a specific DPS class almost useless.

[Bigfish]

It's funny how people suggest chosing a paladin with 4 shamans, but they don't tell you why.

I used to have 4 shamans and a tank and it sucks compared to a multi-class group, because:
- 4 PvE characters from the same class are very difficult to gear, because they all share the same gear. It's almost 4 times slower!
- Characters from the same class share the same skills. Granted, multiple shamans give you lots of totems to chose from, but you miss other awesome buffs and skills that other classes have.
- If a boss has full resistance against a specific type of damage(e.g. nature damage) it will make a specific DPS class almost useless.

A lot of top level gear can be bought/crafted. More so, mixed class groups often suffer from poor drop syndrome, with the drops being out of class/spec. Hell, bottom line instance gear isn't very fast for trying to gear ANY group.

As far as buffs go, many classes synergize well with themselves. Shamans in particular excel at this in so much that they can benefit from multiple same-element totems.

With bosses, they have seemingly gone out of their way to keep them from having too many immunities, ever since the glory days of lolfire and lolnature back in MC and AQ.

[Marious]

Agreed I have both Pally/Shaman group and mix group, after struggling with the Mix group and not having lots of time to play I settled back to Shaman Group which is great, as mentioned above the totems are great and then for lower level stuff having the Fire/Earth Elementals is nice, though they do become worthless other than to take a bit of damage when you are running low on healing power and the tank needs a rest. Also Pally LoH all your health back+ part of the mana back cant beat that with a stick, I have lost all my healing and DPS and have successfully come out on top with just the Pally alive. Sure it takes for ever to kill something with just one guy up but its doable. But just use what you enjoy most, for my mix it kind of sucks that I don't have my mage for the Int buff or my boomkin for his druid buff but hey I have been doing fine with out it, of course I have changed my macro's around and now I am doing much better than before. Not having target=targettarget in your macro is bad now that I do have it like that life is so much easier.

[Ken]

It's funny how people suggest chosing a paladin with 4 shamans, but they don't tell you why.
That's because we've explained the reasons hundreds of times. :)
Blessings and Totems is the short-short answer.


- 4 PvE characters from the same class are very difficult to gear, because they all share the same gear. It's almost 4 times slower!
Incorrect - Shaman can wear Leather and Cloth. Gearing them up for harder content is FAST. You have so many options. Elemental Shaman are basically casters - sure, mail is ideal, but not required by any means.
You want to put shamans in cloth? Sure you CAN do that, but it's everything but desirable.




- Characters from the same class share the same skills. Granted, multiple shamans give you lots of totems to chose from, but you miss other awesome buffs and skills that other classes have.
Stacking totems (4x mana spring anyone?) is THE reason to roll this group. Its not a negative by any means. And Shaman bring almost every buff available to a group. And 3.1 is making this even better.
The mana spring is useful, but other classes have their own manaregen if you chose them carefully (e.g. disc priest, paladin blessing, survival hunter, etc.). Most importantly, when your characters are decently geared, you don't even need all those mana spring totems. I personally find that when 2 shamans have put down their totems, there aren't really many important totems left and any additional totems won't give you a major benefit.
It then becomes a lot more interesting to look at the major benefits from other classes.



- If a boss has full resistance against a specific type of damage(e.g. nature damage) it will make a specific DPS class almost useless.
3.0 fixed this. I don't know of any bosses that immune to both Nature and Fire.
Even if a boss is only immune to your lightning bolts, it takes a long time to take him down with fire shocks and lava bursts only because of the cooldown.



A lot of top level gear can be bought/crafted. More so, mixed class groups often suffer from poor drop syndrome, with the drops being out of class/spec. Hell, bottom line instance gear isn't very fast for trying to gear ANY group.
I was talking about getting epic gear. Granted, you could craft some epic gear, but crafting assumes you have a crafting profession or shitloads of money to by the stuff from the auction house.


As far as buffs go, many classes synergize well with themselves. Shamans in particular excel at this in so much that they can benefit from multiple same-element totems.
I know, I *have* 4 shamans ;) But I disagree that having 4 shamans in a group has a buff advantage because of the totems. All major totems are put down when you have utilized 2 of your shamans (8 totems down, including haste, agility and wrath). More totems of course add more benefitis, but the remaining totem benefits are smaller compared to what other classes could offer(e.g. 2k stamina from priest with discipline spirit buff, mage int buff, druid stat increase, etc. etc.)
For example: There's no way that I'd trade in portals AND free drinks/food AND my int buff for a few shaman totems. The fire mage even puts up to 10% extra spell crit chance onto the target due to improved scorch:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12873
(which gets applied twice per cast due to a glyph)
... for me that's like having a second totem of wrath down that actually works :P (ok, it doesn't add more spellpower, but it adds more critical chance)

[Bigfish]

I know, I *have* 4 shamans ;) But I disagree that having 4 shamans in a group has a buff advantage because of the totems. All major totems are put down when you have utilized 2 of your shamans (8 totems down, including haste, agility and wrath). More totems of course add more benefitis, but the remaining totem benefits are smaller compared to what other classes could offer(e.g. 2k stamina from priest with discipline spirit buff, mage int buff, druid stat increase, etc. etc.)
For example: There's no way that I'd trade in portals AND free drinks/food AND my int buff for a few shaman totems. The fire mage even puts up to 10% extra spell crit chance onto the target due to improved scorch:

Well, I have one of EVERYTHING, and honestly, most of the synergy buffs of other classes are pretty weaksauce compared to the benefits of shamans. Even tossing buffs out, shamans still maintain a hefty advantage in chain heal, a spell that is naturally enhanced by DPS caster gearing, and has amazing mana efficiency and punch.

So adding a mage nets you an Int buff, 10% spell crit, a lot more micromanagement, and -1 chain healer. It just snowballs from there, as you get a wider range of classes, you get a wider range of buffs, but they become more unwieldy as their various weaknesses come in to play as well.

[Bigfish]

If i'm waring a ilvl 165 mail green and a ilvl 200 cloth epic drops, guess what I'm going to equip?

Hold up! That dress is hunter loot! The spell power boosts my arcane shot.

[Bigfish]

I kid you not, there was once a day, long long ago when I had only one character, when I stacked frost damage on my hunter to boost the bonus damage on my Hurricane. Now that I think about it, that was right about the time I started boxing...

[Vyndree]

The cool beans about shammies is that they have both a 1) melee dps spec, 2) ranged dps spec, 3) healing spec. So when dual-spec comes out you can go nuts with the combinations. Pallies work great with shammies because they can 1) melee dps spec, 2) tank spec, 3) healing spec -- so you can do things like...

* pally tank, 4 ele dps
* pally healer, 4 ele dps
* pally tank, 3 ele dps, 1 resto
* pally tank, 1 enh dps, 2 ele dps, 1 resto
* pally tank, 2 enh dps, 1 ele dps, 1 resto
* pally tank, 2 enh dps, 2 ele dps
* pally healer, 2 enh dps, 2 ele dps
* pally tank, 4 enh dps
* pally tank, 3 enh dps, 1 resto
* pally healer, 4 enh dps (crazy amirite?)

I would say the only more flexible class setup is potentially 5 druids (ranged dps, melee dps, tanking, healing).


P.S. "Cloth" and "Leather" are listed under the "Skills" tab for shaman. If they didn't want shaman to ever wear those items, it wouldn't be available to them. There are many cases where cloth items are more desirable than mail. There are many more cases (consider that boomkins and ele shammies -- at least at 70 -- desire similar stats) where leather > mail. On my Sunwell raiding enhancement shaman, I would've given up twice as much DKP to get my hands on the leather helm from Illidan (sadly, I lost to a higher-DKP fury warrior -- yes, a plate wearer using leather).

I've seen mages and pallies rolling on +spirit gear because, even if you ignore the spirit entirely, it's an upgrade.

[Bigfish]

(sadly, I lost to a higher-DKP fury warrior -- yes, a plate wearer using leather).

Maybe its just me, but my Warrior tends to get her skull busted in when she tries stuff like that.

[Ken]

So adding a mage nets you an Int buff, 10% spell crit, a lot more micromanagement, and -1 chain healer.
You only need 1 dedicated healer for heroics and raiding. No need for extra chain heals. There isn't "a lot more micromanagement" if you group your spells properly and use cast sequences properly. In general all spells from any class can be categorized in general categories like aoe/instant cast/regular/DoT/etc. I personally categorize them into: single target dps cast sequence, multi target dps cast sequence, close combat cast sequence, spell interrupt
Also, I prefer 'real' AoE healing from a priest.


It just snowballs from there, as you get a wider range of classes, you get a wider range of buffs, but they become more unwieldy as their various weaknesses come in to play as well.
More unwieldy? o_O
Seriously, any class can do DPS fine with a castsequence. And what you might call "unwieldy" is something I might call a challenge.



You want to put shamans in cloth? Sure you CAN do that, but it's everything but desirable.

You're basically saying that Mages, Warlocks, and Priests aren't viable classes to play, period. Because their only gear option is cloth.
No, you're making statements that I did not make.


As you GET the mail drops, please feel free to regear your Shaman. But as I'm farming instances, if gear drops that I can use and will benefit my toons - I'm looting and equiping it. More DPS is more dps, no matter how you swing it.
Sure, but when you equip your shaman with cloth, I wouldn't find that shaman "geared out". Of course its DPS will be improved, but you haven't finished gearing that shaman, since he's still wearing cloth.

[edit]


P.S. "Cloth" and "Leather" are listed under the "Skills" tab for shaman.
O RLY! I know that, one of my shamans wears leather atm ;)

If they didn't want shaman to ever wear those items, it wouldn't be available to them. There are many cases where cloth items are more desirable than mail. There are many more cases (consider that boomkins and ele shammies -- at least at 70 -- desire similar stats) where leather > mail. On my Sunwell raiding enhancement shaman, I would've given up twice as much DKP to get my hands on the leather helm from Illidan (sadly, I lost to a higher-DKP fury warrior -- yes, a plate wearer using leather).

I've seen mages and pallies rolling on +spirit gear because, even if you ignore the spirit entirely, it's an upgrade.
So if you have your shamans in a cloth/leather/mail mix, you considered them all geared? I don't.

[Bigfish]

You only need 1 dedicated healer for heroics and raiding. No need for extra chain heals. There isn't "a lot more micromanagement" if you group your spells properly and use cast sequences properly. In general all spells from any class can be categorized in general categories like aoe/instant cast/regular/DoT/etc. I personally categorize them into: single target dps cast sequence, multi target dps cast sequence, close combat cast sequence, spell interrupt
Also, I prefer 'real' AoE healing from a priest.


More unwieldy? o_O
Seriously, any class can do DPS fine with a castsequence. And what you might call "unwieldy" is something I might call a challenge.

Why why why WHY do people think they know more about my set up than I do?

[Souca]

This is why Paladin + 4x Shaman trumps all.

Lets start with Buffs.

Mage - Arcane Int.
Who needs extra mana when elemental Shaman stack mana spring totems and have nearly unlimited mana?
Also Blessing of Wisdom is better.
Also add judgement of wisdom on top of this.

Int is more than just mana pool. Mage buff is a free 0.36% spell crit. Add Kings to this and you get an extra 6 Int.


Priest - Fortitude
Stack healing spring totems, although this is useful on raid tanks.

Warlock - Imp Buff or Fel Hunter Buff.
See Priest and Mage.

Blessing of Kings is arguably better than all of these - and its getting baselined in 3.1 All Paladin's will have it.
And other buffs get better with Kings. Kings one of the best scaling buffs in the game. The more you start with, the more you get. You can't talk about how great Kings is and ignore buffs that improve it.


Fear?
Tremor totems make you immune to fear.
Only if you can still stagger them. If they are on a synchronized 3 second tick, the only benefit more than one gives you is range. And it's a fear break, not an immunity. Priest's have an immunity in one of their useless buffs.


DK's Horn of Winter?qrns
Imp. Strength of Earth totem trumps this.

DK's bring 13% more damage to the table if spec'd Unholy. Yes, this is nice. No, its not needed.
Kings isn't needed. Mana totems aren't needed. Acording to the latest game design from Blizzard, no buff is needed. This is however a great buff for casters. You will see more benefit from this buff than Kings. Depending on how geared your casters are, this may even be better than Totem of Wrath from a pure damage perspective, but why chose when you can have both?


DK's death grip?
Paladin's are getting Avenger's Shield with silencing abilities in 3.1 Almost the same thing, possibly even better.
Not the same thing, and difficult to compare. Both have their uses. Death Grip is the only ability in the game that moves a mob closer to you. Not saying it's better or worse, but just dismissing this out of hand does not lend credence to your analysis.


DK's Anti-Magic Shell?
Grounding Totems are very similar in nature, although not as good.

Between a Paladin and a Resto Shaman, you can remove ANY debuff (poison, disease, magic, and curses)

In a Pally Shaman Group = the entire group can heal. Massive chain heal = full group full life in 2 secs.

Ressurection! If you wipe, you've got 4 chances to pop back up instead of running back.

Paladin's bring a truck load of "oh shit" abilities.

Blessing of Protection
Hand of Salvation
Blessing of Freedom
Lay on Hands
Divine Protection
They can rez.

Shaman bring:
Spell Haste
Melee Haste
Spell Power
Cleansing Totems
Replenishment Totems
Anti-Fear
Anti-Magic (grounding totems)

...I'm sure I could go on. The group setup trumps everything. Synergy x1000.What about DK tank, 3 elemental shammy and a holy pally? Don't get me wrong, I love my pally shammy group, but I'm willing to trade a shammy for an Unholy DK. A DK with Blessing on Sanctuary is a very powerful force. I know I'll have to spec my holy pally into prot, but its just that good.

I don't think there is a perfect group. There are better groups than others, but until you can play to a level that the comp makes a difference, then it's all moot. It's possible that you play to that level. Currently I don't, so I don't worry about those last few percent I could get. I focus on having fun. I don't discount other comps out of hand though. Besides, how boring would it be if there was just *one* perfect comp? I'm sure Vyndree will find it and ruin all the fun for the rest of us, but until then each group has its ups and downs.

All that said, if I had it to do all over again, I'd still start will Pally/Shaman because I think it is one of the easier groups to learn. And in the begining learning is the hardest part.


- Souca -

[Souca]

Not the same thing, and difficult to compare. Both have their uses. Death Grip is the only ability in the game that moves a mob closer to you. Not saying it's better or worse, but just dismissing this out of hand does not lend credence to your analysis.It is and it isn't.

Death Grip is the anti-caster ability - bringing those ranged folks in close. A Silencing effect has the same end result in PvE - the caster can't cast, so it runs into melee range.It might have the same end result, but it is by no means the same. Death grip works on melee as well. The fact that it interrupts is secondary; it moves the target to where you cast it. Not where you are, where you cast it. It also forces a mob to attack you for the next six seconds, but its not a taunt, so it is handy even if the mob is standing right next to you but you want to get it to attack you instead of the squishy rogue until the tank gets a chance to pick it back up. My point being while you can compare it other abilities it will always be an Apple vs Microsoft argument; long, painful and ultimately pointless.

I swear by it because it lets me yank 80s from the sky on my 5 DK group. Nothing better than pulling that smug person on their flying mount down to melee range and hitting them with a stun or root.

- Souca -

[Ken]

"Geared out" in my opinion is "able to complete "x" objective". I guess in your mind its "wearing mail and able to complete "x" objective" - which has nothing to do with actually completing the objective.
I'd even say full epic mail.



You only need 1 dedicated healer for heroics and raiding. No need for extra chain heals. There isn't "a lot more micromanagement" if you group your spells properly and use cast sequences properly. In general all spells from any class can be categorized in general categories like aoe/instant cast/regular/DoT/etc. I personally categorize them into: single target dps cast sequence, multi target dps cast sequence, close combat cast sequence, spell interrupt
Also, I prefer 'real' AoE healing from a priest.


More unwieldy? o_O
Seriously, any class can do DPS fine with a castsequence. And what you might call "unwieldy" is something I might call a challenge.

Why why why WHY do people think they know more about my set up than I do?
Why can't I haven an opinion?
Why do you assume I don't have any experience with the group combinations I'm talking about or: why is my experience negligible?

My statements are based on the evolvement of my own group, that went as follows:
4 shamans (lvl 70, BC)
=> 4 shamans + warrior tank (lvl 70, BC)
=> 3 shamans + warrior + priest (lvl 80, WotLK)
=> shaman, hunter, mage, warrior, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

Each step my group diversified, it was an overall improvement for me.


@ Fursphere:
There is no way that you can claim that X of the same class gives more buffs(main ones, like totem of wrath, priest stamina and spirit, int buff, etc.) than a well-chosen diversification of other classes. Some shaman totems stack, I agree, and that *can* be very powerful. Also, not all class buffs stack, I'm aware of that, but in the end, you gain more unstacked buffs with different classes than with stacking the same class.
How much have you raided? Surely, you must have seen a DPS improvement when being in a raid? I definitely have (with my shamans).

[edit] Further down, you mentioned a list of buffs, however, important buffs/skills are missing per class, like the ones from the talent trees.

[shaeman]

AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

No wonder things improved for you - you are now running 5 mans with 6 characters :) (It's either a mistake or you're raiding).

I don't think this should degenerate into my group composition is better than yours.

The pally/shaman combo has been tested and proven by a lot of people, call it flavour of the month effect but it works.
It's easier to macro up when you have 4 of the same class, with the same build. The totems are incredibly useful, and cover many, many situations.
Beign able to reincarnate on 4 and res on 5 is wonderful for wipe recovery when learning new instances.
You have less issues with procs like hot streak, earth and moon etc (not sure what the names are).

Ken's group is well rounded buff wise and he feels it is easier to gear up, although I feel that crafted items shouldn't be discounted in the gearing up process considering the ease with which a team of 5 can farm gold at 80.

There is probably more complexity to macro setup, but once you've got that done it's down to tweaking again. Are the characters in the group performing optimally, who knows.

One thing to consider - a team with 4 shaman may be massively affected by any nerf (but also may be massively improved by an buff to a class). The team of 5 different classes will have less of an impact. (Note: some shaman teams were struggling post wotlk, but excel after the recent damage buff in the patch)

I like the idea of a diverse group - it would give me flexibility should I quit multiboxing to play different classes and fulfill different roles in the guild i'm in.
In reality a lot of folks with the shammy pally combo have other classes anyway.

So to the OP - if you have all the classes you listed at 80 then make two teams and see if you prefer one or the other, as personal preference and fun is greater than everything else.

If you don't then you would be able to have your high level pve fun now (presuming a tank at high level) rather than levelling another team.

[Ken]

AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

No wonder things improved for you - you are now running 5 mans with 6 characters :) (It's either a mistake or you're raiding).

That was a typo :)



I don't think this should degenerate into my group composition is better than yours.

The pally/shaman combo has been tested and proven by a lot of people, call it flavour of the month effect but it works.
Of course it works, I'm just stating that it's not optimal in relation to buffs and gearing.


It's easier to macro up when you have 4 of the same class, with the same build.
Agree, but that's only a temporary problem. I actually find it a good thing that it's got more macro magic to it, cause I like to spend time trying to create the best macro-setup.


The totems are incredibly useful, and cover many, many situations.
Sure they are, it's just that after 8 totems down, you've covered the all the important ones.


Beign able to reincarnate on 4 and res on 5 is wonderful for wipe recovery when learning new instances.
You have less issues with procs like hot streak, earth and moon etc (not sure what the names are).
Other classes have their own wipe-recovery abilities.
Also, learning new instances covers a relatively small part of the game time. After that, you shouldn't suffer from 4 or 5 wipes an hour, 'cause then you're doing it wrong :P


Ken's group is well rounded buff wise and he feels it is easier to gear up, although I feel that crafted items shouldn't be discounted in the gearing up process considering the ease with which a team of 5 can farm gold at 80.
True. It's just that you can't craft a full epic set of a specific gear type. Crafting the items that you can craft for a character is going to cost a lot indeed and even though you can farm gold easier at level 80, it's still A LOT of gold, considering you probably want an epic flying mount too.


There is probably more complexity to macro setup, but once you've got that done it's down to tweaking again. Are the characters in the group performing optimally, who knows.
Indeed.


One thing to consider - a team with 4 shaman may be massively affected by any nerf (but also may be massively improved by an buff to a class). The team of 5 different classes will have less of an impact. (Note: some shaman teams were struggling post wotlk, but excel after the recent damage buff in the patch)

I like the idea of a diverse group - it would give me flexibility should I quit multiboxing to play different classes and fulfill different roles in the guild i'm in.
In reality a lot of folks with the shammy pally combo have other classes anyway.
It makes it easier in raids: some people will really be pissed off when you roll for every caster mail item with all 4 shamans(because it makes it very difficult for any other shaman to get the item), while they won't complain if you roll for almost every drop but just with 1 character.

[Bigfish]

My statements are based on the evolvement of my own group, that went as follows:
4 shamans (lvl 70, BC)
=> 4 shamans + warrior tank (lvl 70, BC)
=> 3 shamans + warrior + priest (lvl 80, WotLK)
=> shaman, hunter, mage, warrior, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid (lvl 69-80, WotLK) AND shaman, hunter, mage, paladin, druid, priest (lvl 69-80, WotLK)

So 3 relatively straightforward ranged DPS classes, and your choice of tank/healer. Your DPS dynamic doesn't change that much outside of your skip from 3 shamans to the shaman, hunter, and mage, relatively straightforward and front loaded damage dealers. Ever done any work with a shadow priest, warlock, rogue, DPS warrior, or death knights? Is your mage set up to account for hot streak procs? How's their spell hit?

Anything can be (and have been) macroed to output their top end DPS, but you face a serious issue of gearing and where in the DPS cycle their damage lands. Locks and shadow priests in particular face an issue of their damage starting off pitiful and slowly building up to a crescendo of ticking madness. You face particular issues in classes that don't involve the stack spell damage/crit mantra of shamans, and if, God help you, you have melee characters, there are a whole slew of stats you have to keep up on to make sure they stay relevant.

It's certainly challenging and interesting, but it also gets tedious and annoying the wider methodology of gearing and rotations you have to develop to get the thing to run, as opposed to straight shamans, which are pretty simple to stack your 2 stats, write a few macros, go to town, and end up being just as effective, if not more so, as a mixed class group trying to capitalize on synergy.

[Ken]

[...]And in my seeminly unworthly mix of gear (including.... *gasp* cloth items! /oh noes!)[...]
Great discussion tactics! Putting words in my mouth(that cloth is unworthy) and ridicule (the part inbetween the brackets) is always a great way to get a good discussion going on!
I actually thought you were in for a serious conversation, but I guess I was wrong.

Let me quote what I said about cloth:

You want to put shamans in cloth? Sure you CAN do that, but it's everything but desirable.
Mail is desirable. When I say that cloth is not desirable, it does not mean that it's unworthy or worthless.

Here are some more statements I made about gear types:


Sure, but when you equip your shaman with cloth, I wouldn't find that shaman "geared out". Of course its DPS will be improved, but you haven't finished gearing that shaman, since he's still wearing cloth.

So if you have your shamans in a cloth/leather/mail mix, you considered them all geared? I don't.

There's nothing that says that cloth is useless or unworthy for a shaman. You're just scewing my words again.

[torytrae]

I am by no means as experienced as you guys. But I started with a prot pally and 4 shaman.

Now I have only one shaman left. First I added a Frostmage for 1 Ele Shammy, and I love it. Not only the int buff is nice, but Frostbolt + Blizzard are badass DPS - plus the frosteffects you get, plus the 2% caster crit on each frosthit (stacks up to 5 times). I do not even want to mention PORTALS *yikes*.
Then I changed my resto shaman vs a disc priest and the priest heals so much better. Shield, Groupheal, Sta buff, WP buff, Fear immunity for tank etc. add so much more than my resto could. Yesterday I changed another Ele shamy for a Moonkin and again, I love it. Moonkin caster buffs, Mana regen buff, Moonkin ultimates, Moonkin AoE, 13% caster dmg increase on mobs, to-hit-debuff on bosses etc. etc. All this stacks up.

Compared together, my mixed group DPS is 35% higher (!) than my 1 Pala + 4 Shamy DPS. And its so much more enjoyable to have different chars to equip, explore their strenghts and weaknesses ... and have a whole bunch of toons available for your solo-play whenever you feel to.

I will never go back to shamans, I have one Ele shamy left for ingrim and caster-speed totems ... and yes, the mana-reg totems are nice, but so what. Just my opinion.

[Bigfish]

You know, we should probably just build a concise list of classes, specs, and synergy (both in an individual capacity and in a stacking capacity) and the difficulties associated with them so we can stop tossing vague accusations back and forth. More on that as I get the time.

[Bigfish]

Right, but I was talking more along the lines of as it relates to boxers in terms of difficulty of approach as well as the stacking affect that raidcomp doesn't take in to account (as far as I'm aware). For example, does raid comp figure in the utility of 4-balance spec druids, only 1 in boomkin form while the other gets the aura buff but maintain caster form to drop HoTs (more HoTs! More HoTs! More HoTs!) on the tank?

[Owltoid]

5 druids don't have a hell of a lot of synergy, but I'm betting it beats leveling/gearing up multiple teams when all I really want to do is pwn in PvP (not because of skill, but because of pure treant advantage... if you start talking aobut AoE against my treants I'll put on the ear muffs).

Just do what you think is fun. Developers are changing WoW so that nearly any class combination can be successful. Are there better ones? Sure. I'd be willing to be that due to ease of use and current stacking, DK+4 shammy is the strongest. What you lose in group utility/buffs you can in ease of use... ease of use often means increased DPS. But, they don't have treants... and that's what this guy cares about (your mileage may vary).

[EaTCarbS]

I think ill just stick to the x1 Pally, x4 Shaman setup for now, its less leveling anyway.

Thanks for the replies everyone! great information :thumbsup:

[Souca]

earlier you mentioned 0.31% to crit from the Mage Int. Buff. Whoopee. Seriously - that's nothing. That was me. And while it is small, it isn't nothing. 0% is nothing. Don't talk in absolutes and then leave things out of your arguments. I mentioned the crit because you said the int buff was only a mana pool increase. It isn't. If you think the other things are insignificant, fine; mention them and say so, but don't say there isn't anything else when there is.

Edit: You didn't say there wasn't anything else, you only focused on the mana pool regen aspect. Apologies for a misquote/interpretation.

If this is a thread based on preference, then there isn't a best group. If this is a thread based on numbers, then there will be a best group, but until people start posting math and solid numbers, it's really just "I think" and "I feel". Either type of thread is fine as long as people respond accordingly.

- Souca -