Are raids too easy?

[Skuggomann]

Has enny one else felt this?

I did a semi pug on MH and BT, full clear with no problems. Got soem T6 on my rouge that has less than 1D in /played.
Even KJ got pugged on my server XD

[Ellay]

I'd say it's more fun than anything :)

[valkry]

Yes, way too easy. Boss kills from that patch onwards don't really count in my eyes.

I know a BT uild that stepped into Sunwell for the first time after clearing BT in 2 hours, 1 shotting kalec and brutallus, then going in next night and downing everything else, including KJ to 17% on their first try, down on the 2nd try...that's not progression, that's like t6 people going back to MC, there is some difficulty but in reality it is a pushover.

[Tasty]

I'm with Ellay on this one. Raids are heaps fun now :D

[Style1one]

lol my old server still hasnt cleared sunwell yet lol.... horde barly cleared bt by june this year, though the allience had it on farm for a year now but now horde is further into sunwell (before patch) lol

[Zub]

you guys do understand that they did this so that more people actually see the content right?
They haven't made the raids easier for the raiders, they made them easier for the semi-casuals the last 3 weeks of the Burning Crusade to give everyone a chance to see those bosses before the great exodus to Northrend.
In 2 months all those TBC raids will be rarely visited.

[Tasty]

In 2 months all those TBC raids will be rarely visited.

Says you!!!!

[valkry]

It's not the talents that break the encounters, it's the hp/dmg reduction of a boss that breaks it. Hydross, Bloodboil, Teron, Mother Sharaz, Illidary Council, Illidan, Vashj, Kael...all these once hard bosses are now massively simplified and in many cases now a tank/spank.

It's kinda like the 2nd boss in AQ20. You used to have to kite it over eggs to dmg it and was a huge dps race at at the end, but now you just tank/spank it til it dies 30 seconds later.

[Kel]

Yes raids are much easier post-patch as much of the content can now be brute forced through (my guild did Bloodboil, RoS, Sha'rahz and Council for the first time after the patch having never tried them before - and having no shadow res for mother).

I like the change, I'd have never been able to see Illidan had they not made the content easier (server issues meant we couldn't kill him - but there's still time) at the same time the kills aren't as much of an achievement now as they used to be, but I don't think people would be motivated enough at this point in the game to spend countless hours wiping on the same boss. So at least it means there's more chance of raiding continuing up until the patch (I remember pre-BC when my guild couldn't raid anything in the weeks leading up to the expansion because everyone was too busy pvping).

[merujo]

You're playing 41 talent point tuned raids with a 51 point tree.

along with boss's with less 30% the hp they had, that hit less 30% than they used too.

[Anjuna]

Honestly, I think they should just design all future raids to be this trivial. This is coming from someone who cleared all vanilla and BC content before nerfs.

[KSboxers]

The business model they have set up for this is brilliant imho. They make the raids really tough so the people that are dead set on getting the bosses down first have a tough competition to see who can get them down. You get a few guilds on each server that can clear the endgame content and can show off all that new gear. As the release of the new endgame content gets closer they make it easier so the less hardcore guilds (and even eventually pugs) can have a chance to see it and maybe clear it before it becomes old news. Then the new dungeon comes out and the hardcore people are back to trying to get server firsts. It's a win/win. Hardcore people get to brag, softcore people get to eventually see the content also. What's the point of spending all those hours writing content that only about 20% of the population would ever get to see. I love playing the game but i'm not in to hard core raiding. If it wasn't for this process i would never get to see endgame content.

[Aethon]

Just start PuG'ing with scrub guilds like mine. Under geared toons and 1/2 the people don't know what's going on despite the explainations. We wiped a few times on Rage last night and couldn't clear the 2nd wave boss in Hyjal.

We have no problems with T4 content, but that T5/6 stuff is still throwing us for fits.

If you want it to be harder, take off some of your gear :-P

[Sct]

My guild is loving it. Before the patch we only had a few members that had been as far as SSC.... Now we're up to Bloodboil. Thx Blizz.

[Svpernova09]

You're playing 41 talent point tuned raids with a 51 point tree.

along with boss's with less 30% the hp they had, that hit less 30% than they used too.They still hit just as hard as they used to, they just can't crush, and some bosses don't have some of the abilities they used it. Last night Al'ar only used melt armor once the entire fight. Pre-patch we were seeing it once a transition.

[elo]

Personally I'm thrilled they did this and it makes a lot of sense. I've still never even been in Naxxramas, BT, Hyjal, or SWP and now I've got a chance. Unfortunately, I'm in a mad rush to level up a couple of new toons so it looks like I'll be missing it anyhow.

I couldn't agree more that they should nerf the raids, maybe not quite as much as they have but some. During the Zombie garbage Blizz said they were focus'd on fun first, but EVERYTHING I've seen about raiding is the opposite. It's just a level of beat down and time commitment that's unacceptable. Sure, there are dozens, maybe hundreds of guilds that love it as is, but there are thousands if not 10's of thousands who just don't even get to play and that's not right. From what I've seen there are 2 kinds of hardcore raiders. Those that are sick as hell of it and those that will be. IMO they should focus on more content instead of crazy hard content that any but the best guilds will spend weeks trying to down 1 boss. I've seen dozens of guilds split over raid content and hundreds of people swapping guilds for lack of progression. The funny thing is the accepted 'custom' now is that people keep their alts in guilds with their friends and move their main to a hardcore guild to get the loot. This just isn't right, game mechanics shouldn't decide who you're going to associate with. My current guild has a lot of great players but weren't even through SSC by the time they nerfed it and they have spent MONTHS in there. It's just sickening.

[TheBigBB]

The problem with BC's raiding was that Vashj and Kael were far too difficult to begin with, and Hyjal and BT were not nearly hard enough compared. Vashj and Kael were harder than half of the bosses in BT and Hyjal! Since you originally and for a LONG time had to kill Vashj and Kael to even STEP FOOT into Hyjal and BT, that represented a HUGE difference between a guild who downed Kael and one who didn't. The guild who did would be riding to glory with mountains of easy T6 epics. The guild who didn't would be sporting relative garbage for a year to come.

They basically had no completely entry-level 25 man raid in BC. I suppose their answer now is to allow people to stick with their 10 man squads, which is fine with me, seeing as I don't have to box 25 to see what the content looks like. Although, I'm sure 25-man stuff will be cooler in terms of boss ability design.

And of course, I'd like to see raiding content have a real sloped progression where the end stuff is hard as hell, but it gradually gets there. And I'm not a person who's struggled with raid content. I did get to Illidan months ago.

Raiding is too easy right now, but it's okay because many of these raids have been out for 2 years, and all the gear is going to be water under the bridge in a month anyway.

[suprafro]

The entire game is pretty much already assessable to everyone (5/10 mans, BGs) , the only real PVE challenges are the high 25m raid instances and arenas on the PVP side. If you nerf those so that they can just be zerged down by anyone without even trying (or make the arena system moot), then there would literly be no challenge for any vetern players. People would buy the game, level a guy to 70/80, and then just quit or possibly give up sooner as they would feel like the game has nothing to offer except the leveling content

[elo]

The entire game is pretty much already assessable to everyone (5/10 mans, BGs) , the only real PVE challenges are the high 25m raid instances and arenas on the PVP side. If you nerf those so that they can just be zerged down by anyone without even trying (or make the arena system moot), then there would literly be no challenge for any vetern players. People would buy the game, level a guy to 70/80, and then just quit or possibly give up sooner as they would feel like the game has nothing to offer except the leveling contentThe same can be said for people who can't/won't raid. They level to 70/80 and then just quit or give up sooner because the game has nothing to offer except the raiding content. No, the raid content shouldn't be nerfed down so that it doesn't take any effort, but the current bar is too high for the vast majority of the player base. I'm all for difficulty, with appropriate rewards, but the real crux is that in order to reach that next level of gameplay people have to dedicate far too much of their lives to it. I don't know really how to fix the problem. No matter how hard they make it (provided it's still even possible) the top guilds will always clear the stuff in a couple of weeks and then you'll have all the moderate guilds struggling for a year or more (provided they can even manage to keep their player base). That's why I think Blizz should spend less time on the raid content and more on the overall content. The 25/10 thing in Wrath is a good move towards that, it takes a LOT less effort to put together 10 man's than 25's.

[Mirina]

It's definitely turned into a snooze fest. I took my lock into Kara last week, her only "nice" gear is her FSW set, and a Belt of Blasting, and had no issues. I have never actually instanced OR raided on the toon and it was a cakewalk. Pulls that would have automatically equaled wipes pre-patch people in greens could survive. It actually depressed me a little bit as I raided T6 content on my hunter before retiring from raiding. I know they want to see content, but man if I didn't feel like the old person yelling "get off my lawn" and "I walked up hill both ways 6 miles in the snow to get to school" when people were asking if I thought Kara was easy.

The plus side is a lot of people are getting to see content, so that's cool.

The downside is that people who have never raided before are getting to see content and have no clue about how to raid. One guy was completely clueless and didn't get that because he PUGged in on a group to kill Prince that he couldn't run with us...that also brought up the explanation of what a raid ID was.

I ended up going to sleep instead of trying to get people to do interrupts/controlled burns on the Opera R&J fight. For me, it's sad seeing how I did all the content at pre-patch difficulty...I was also one of the people who griped when they removed keying from BT/MH (and I wasn't keyed yet to get in and I STILL didn't like that they removed keying), but I can't fault Blizzard for wanting to help people see content.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

You're asking this question now? After people already have T6? And with talents balanced for play at 80? Had you asked this question a month after BC, you'd have gotten a different answer. 6 months ago, it would have been another answer. :P

[valkry]

I too wish they didn't remove the keying for BT/MH. I am keyed for one but thanks to the removal, my guild totally skipped Kael and I never got to see past phase 3. That ring would have helped me hit +3k healing when it procced too :(

[TheBigBB]

I'd like it if there were a sandbox mode where you got no loot or credit, but could progress through an easier version of the content after a certain point. Like let's say a year after every raid is introduced, easy no-loot mode becomes active. That way anyone who is causal and just wants to SEE content could, and they wouldn't have to nerf anything anymore.

[Svpernova09]

After what I've seen since the patch, of course I'd have to say a resounding "Yes". A lot of hardcore raiders on my server are QQing about it. But meh, Madoran was a xfer server when BC hit and Sunwell has yet to be cleared. Only 3 guilds dropped Illidan prepatch, so we're definetely NOT a progression server. Prepatch the guild I'm in was 3/4 Tk, 5/6 SSC, 3/5 MH, 2/9 BT. We simply ran out of time before the patch. We had solid attempts on Vashj and if we didn't have a bunch of people biting at the chomp to hit MH/BT we would have downed her prepatch. But at any rate after the nerf we easily went 6/9 BT and 4/5 MH without much trouble or even much preparation. This week we finished off TK and SSC. We 2 shot Kael and it was literally the 2nd time most of the guild had ever seen him. I'm glad they nerfed the raids because otherwise a super casual like myself (and many of my guildies) wouldn't have been able to see the content. And believe it or not, most of the guild I'm in is more interested in Content than PURPLEZ. But nerf or no nerf, I'm glad to have my Hand of A'dal title now and it was a blast to see the content.

[ILikeTwins]

My guilld got through most of the content pre-patch but we are still having lots of fun tearing it up. I thought I would be upset about them opening things up but to be honest doing hour and a half clears of BT with mains and alts are tons of fun when we remember how hard some of that stuff was. You can essentially skip entire phases of a fight (or lessen the number of phases) by dpsing through them (Fel Rage, Demon phase etc). It makes you feel like a superhero without the stress of worrying about every moment of every pull. Being able to down the bosses in Sunwell without the astronomical repair bills is really nice too.

I always laugh when we have a pug or two and they don't understand how guilds had such hard times clearing such easy content. I always feel like I should give them a little pat on the head as I slowly explain how severely nerfed the content is now. I'm not sure the original difficulty of the encounters will ever quite sink in when you have never seen how absolutely unforgiving some of them were.

Another plus to note is that we generally pug a few players and it has allowed us to find some nice new additions to our guild. We would never have been able to do that before the nerfs unless the pug was also clearing the same level of content since we never had time to clear the old content to gear them up.

[Ellay]

I wanted to bounce back in this thread again. I've been having SO MUCH FUN on PvE like I never thought I would, maybe it's because I'm able to experience the content for what it is and have it not consume the entire evening with wipes. I'm running Kara everytime it is up, even though I need nothing - just because it's enjoyable to hang out with some friends or meet new players.

[Clone]

I was in one of the first 20 guilds to kill KJ and I think it is a great thing they nerfed it so all the casuals can see content. I actually stopped raiding a few weeks after downing KJ and didnt raid again till recently. It has made this stuff even more fun than it was the first time round for me because I get to see it and have a laugh with my real friends who werent into spending 6 nights a week raiding. The first kills of bosses where a great achievement but the amount of stress they caused on not just me but my real life relationships made me think twice about ever going that route again.

[falcao]

I was in one of the first 20 guilds to kill KJ and I think it is a great thing they nerfed it so all the casuals can see content. I actually stopped raiding a few weeks after downing KJ and didnt raid again till recently. It has made this stuff even more fun than it was the first time round for me because I get to see it and have a laugh with my real friends who werent into spending 6 nights a week raiding. The first kills of bosses where a great achievement but the amount of stress they caused on not just me but my real life relationships made me think twice about ever going that route again.I agree! the force is strong in this one!

So much stress in the past, so many wipes, so many friend´s cursing each other because some bad pull, now is fun, no stress and i´m happy casual players can raid.

[Tsunami]

for me raiding is a time issue. even if you have a set starting time, say 7:00pm. it still takes 30 min. for everyone to be ready, buffed and start fighting the trash mob. throw in a wipe or two and it is midnight before your on the last boss, if you get that far. than you have a small chance in getting the loot. I find it easier to do bg's and arena. atleast i know i will get something for my efforts.

[Niley]

it really doesnt matter, when 3.0 came out wotlk was 4 weeks away. Raids in wotlk(25s) wont be that easy, as blue already stated it(in the thread about tanking being too easy at 70). Im hoping that most of t8/9 content at least for first few months will be as hard as sunwell used to be. On beta all t7 content is pretty damn easy too, I predict my guild clearing all t7 by 17th-18th, maybe faster..

[valkry]

it really doesnt matter, when 3.0 came out wotlk was 4 weeks away. Raids in wotlk(25s) wont be that easy, as blue already stated it(in the thread about tanking being too easy at 70). Im hoping that most of t8/9 content at least for first few months will be as hard as sunwell used to be. On beta all t7 content is pretty damn easy too, I predict my guild clearing all t7 by 17th-18th, maybe faster..Leveling to 80 in ~4 days AND getting geared to starting raiding at 80? wth?
For a hardcore guild this isn't a problem. it's only 10 lvls, with 5 lvls per hour, playing more than 12 hours a day. Only need 1 day to clear naxx.
And you don't need to be that geared for the first tier raid. I took my hunter into kara with just the D3 set, it is more than enough.

I'd say a week though before t7 is cleared on my server. I really wouldn't be surprised.

[Niley]

it really doesnt matter, when 3.0 came out wotlk was 4 weeks away. Raids in wotlk(25s) wont be that easy, as blue already stated it(in the thread about tanking being too easy at 70). Im hoping that most of t8/9 content at least for first few months will be as hard as sunwell used to be. On beta all t7 content is pretty damn easy too, I predict my guild clearing all t7 by 17th-18th, maybe faster..Leveling to 80 in ~4 days AND getting geared to starting raiding at 80? wth?
We're all full sunwell geared...we've been farming sunwell for months now. Sunwell gear is still better then almost any quest reward(some trinkets are pretty good from quests thought) and its more then enough to clear naxx(as we've seen people do on the beta in just t6)
A lot of us leveled to 80 on beta, and some have it down to about 2-3 days....and its all raiding after that.