Guilds and PvE Progress

[FunkStar]

After being rjected in prety much every hyjal/bt guild there is in this server, I figured i'd make a post and ask about your experiences with this.

I've been quin-boxing (4 ele shammies + holy priest) for a while now, mostly switcing to quadboxing (4 ele shammies) for any raids, and have proven myself in kara, za, timed za, gruul, magtheridon, ssc, tk and hyjal.
Not to brag, simple facts, top of the dmg charts, good listener, knows the tactics, and all that. I have a main (hunter) in a sunwell guild currently on Mu'ru, but I've recently been trying to get into a lower guild on my shamans.

Guilds however keep rejecting me for the simple reason that I'm boxing. Some of the reasons I've been given:

- 4 people sitting out to let 1 play is unfair
- This is all very new to us and would be distracting for our progress
- 4 elemental shamans in a raid is impossible
- playing 4 characters can never be effective

and so on. I got rejected from every single guild like that, even though some of them were actually looking for DPS on their recruitment forum.

How do you convince a guild to let you 'try' ? I've suggested taking them to a timed ZA, or joining one of their kara's or even bt/hyjals, but that simply got rejected as well.
I'd really love to raid on them rather than on my hunter, as it is getting extremely boring to play 1, when you can play 4.

wtb guild ;(

[Marathon]

Have you thought about making your own guild ?

[Kissell13]

Have you thought about making your own guild ?

Thats my plan :)

[Yamio]

The guild I'm in has made it well known that it is multiboxer friendly and because of that it seems we can't get new members to stay. I'm not sure why but I'm noticiing a pattern. Our charter clearly states there is a multiboxer within its ranks, but everytime I meet a new guildie in person, it's not too long after that they end up /gquit without so much a word.

It's funny, because in guild chat they seem to be having fun, getting along with everyone, cracking jokes, sharing stories, and just enjoying themselves. But then they'll need help and I'm normally the first one to come to somebody's rescue. I'll be damned that when I show up to meet our new guys face-to-face, they stand around gawking just like people do whenever they first encounter us.

It's not like we're meeting for the very first time. I make it a point to make a new guildie feel welcome because I remember what it was like whenever I joined a new guild.

Anyway, they'll take whatever help I give em. Maybe they'll throw in a thank you; maybe not. I'm cool either way with that. But usually within a few days they're gone.

As always I'm cordial. I don't make any rude or snide remarks or attempt to do anything which would cause them to leave. I don't want to upset anyone. No matter what, after meeting the multiboxer in person they leave.

I've stopped doing the RP thing between my crew because people have shown they kinda freak out about it. Even thou it's funny and sometimes interesting, AND can make folks laugh, (not to mention giving me the thrill of doing it), when they realize there is but one guy behind these 4 arguing/discussing/joke telling characters, people have a tendency to get really quiet afterwards. That kind of behavior on my part is not acceptable. We're trying to keep people; not force them away.

I hear you and feel for you Funkstar, but I'm afraid the others may be correct. Maybe it is time to create our own guilds and truly ride solo.

Keep us updated with your situation.

[FunkStar]

The thing is, the guild I'm currently in with my main, is very alt-unfriendly. That's also the reason I dont get to box there, becaues my 'crew' is a bunch of alts. That's why I was looking for a new guild in the first place.

It's not about the fact that they don't understand multi-boxers, I think, because some of them come to my weekly karazhan's and timed ZA events, and they're all loving it.
In my opinion, killing bosses prety much anywhere, with a boxer in the guild, should bring fame to the guild. I'm not quote sure why the people in your guild are leaving, would be weird if it was because of the boxing. In my main's guild, they're all really cool with it that I box, as I said, they just don't want alts in 'main raids'. This might be because they've known me for years before I started boxing though, as I have always been in that guild, since MC and the likes

As for starting an own guild.. I've done that once before boxing, but to be a true successful guild it takes even more time and devotion than multiboxing itself does. I'm not talking about some friend, chat guild that does kara/za, or even SSC/TK. To get to an archimonde/illidan farming state in a new guild takes a while unless its a merge of guilds of some sort.

I just find it so damn annoying that I don't even get a chance to show them the endless possibilities. I've even told all of them that I don't mind if i can only raid once a week, because I take 4 spots, or whatever, aslong as I can raid on my shammies "at all"

[FunkStar]

No people with similar experiences or any thought? ;(

[NoobShammy]

my old guild on doomhammer has a 5 elemental shammy team on it and is the best guild there. Singularity of Doomhammer Look it up

[Lorune]

I am not at a level yet that i can raid with my team yet. However i formed a guild on silvermoon with another boxer on this form with the intention of doing serious 10 man runs.

Yesterday i ran into another 5 boxer, hopefully once he gets higher and wants to do serious stuff he will join aswell *waves heya Hofone & crew* :)

But to even suggest to my current main guild to join their raids, i would be laughed at, since they are a very much min/maxing guild (set the new brutallis speedkill record last night), But that still doesn't stop me from starting a guild for my other toons. I will try to start out with 10 mans, then move to 25 mans, with a max of 5 toons per player, and a minimum of 2 per player.

I recon it will be idioticly hard to get enough people to do so, but i have a gut feeling that once we show some results in 10 mans, the people will come/transfer over.

Anyways to sum it up, i think unless your a officer in your current guild or get mass gquits in the nearby future i see little change of you raiding with all toons :)

[Otlecs]

4 people sitting out to let 1 play is unfair

This is a very, very valid argument and one I fully support. Given the authority, I would never allow a multiboxed character to take the place of an actual person.

I have never multiboxed in a guild raid, because there are plenty of proper bodies to fill the slots.

So if you're marching up to a guild and saying that you want to raid with all 4 shammies or none at all, then you're going to have a problem.

If, on the other hand, you were to apply as a SINGLE shammy and then, one day when they're short on numbers, just happen to mention that you could plug the gap with 2/3/4 if it will help the raid, then you're the good guy instead of the the bad guy.

In other words, perhaps the problem is that you're expecting too much? Get your foot in the door, make your mark, and then float the idea of multiboxing on those occasiosn when there aren't enough people around to create a viable raid.

[Bluepants]

I'm sorry that i have not repplied in this thread yet, i just havent noticed it.... :P
Here are my experiences : The Pants raid thread with tactics ('http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=11715')
And i have clearly stated that i will raid with all or none, i will not under any circumstances drop a pant in a MH/BT raid. (has happened once in SSC but i got DKP on all pants for it.)

I might have put the thread in the general forum, but i figured i could write my multibox experiences in there, thus making it a "advanced PvE tactics" thread ;)

The guild likes me alot, im respected, and alot of people do as i ask for in raids. (GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THE PANTS! on Kaz'Rogal ie.) I also put the time and effort in to this, reading tacs, grinding pots and so on.
I am always 100% focused under the raids, and it pays off, ive never fucked up bigtime (broken 2sheeps, EVER... And once accused of overaggro, but it was the MT that DCed)
The guild im in has made its progress from 2/6 SSc and 1/4 TK into 2/6SSC 1/4 TK 3/5MH 1/9 BT after i joined, so im not getting boosted, i work just as hard/harder as any other guildmember.
Learning tacs and watching movies is one thing, but doing it ingame is another when multiboxing.
For example Supremus, when a pant gets aggro, i run with my main with all 3 on follow... That does NOT WORK... I just ended up with a volcano spawning on my main, making the 3 alts take atleast 8000dmg each... Next time im there, ill send the pant with aggro on autorun in the direction i want supremus, keeping my dmg up, and avoid the volcano spawn smack on my group.

I wish you luck in finding your guild ;) i have found mine..

Will keep my thread in the PvE forums updated ;) next raid for me will be friday/sunday, hoping for an Azgalor kill on sunday, for some good old T6 ;)

[Suvega]

a) Alot of later BT fights will be difficult to do 4 boxing.
Supremus (one gets punted)
Najentus (Spikes, and reacting to them, and keeping them spread out etc)
Teron Gorefiend (Wee when your'e doing your ghost your other 3 will be hard to control)
RoS - Mana issues prob
Mother shiraz = you insta gibbed when teleported, or gibbing groups, or gibbing tanks
Illidari council = you just dps and avoid shit from teh sky, but since you're all on top of each other you'll get faced in blizzard/flamestrikes / etc
Illidan = Spreading out, reacting to fiends, etc will be lame.


b) Guilds who are trying to progress don't want to carry you.
You will never be as effective as 4 equally skilled players. Period.

c) If they aren't carrying you, then you're with bad players ;)



Just find a guild who is friendly with you and your boxing, and progress with them.

You will never find a guild willing to take in some stranger who is playing 4 chars at once.
Even ellay was doing the most simplistic of manuveres and being carried in the raids he did (Vash he jsut dpsed the strider and totally ignored the rest of the fight, ie cores)

[Bluepants]

a) Alot of later BT fights will be difficult to do 4 boxing.
Supremus (one gets punted)
Najentus (Spikes, and reacting to them, and keeping them spread out etc)
Teron Gorefiend (Wee when your'e doing your ghost your other 3 will be hard to control)
RoS - Mana issues prob
Mother shiraz = you insta gibbed when teleported, or gibbing groups, or gibbing tanks
Illidari council = you just dps and avoid shit from teh sky, but since you're all on top of each other you'll get faced in blizzard/flamestrikes / etc
Illidan = Spreading out, reacting to fiends, etc will be lame.


b) Guilds who are trying to progress don't want to carry you.
You will never be as effective as 4 equally skilled players. Period.

c) If they aren't carrying you, then you're with bad players ;)



Just find a guild who is friendly with you and your boxing, and progress with them.

You will never find a guild willing to take in some stranger who is playing 4 chars at once.
Even ellay was doing the most simplistic of manuveres and being carried in the raids he did (Vash he jsut dpsed the strider and totally ignored the rest of the fight, ie cores)

I do respect your opinions ;) But.. A couple of encounters arent as hard as you put them.

Najentus, i actually do better than 4 "normal" ranged DPS, because of 2 things, first off : i have 100% control over "my" spikes, the only pant that needs to be watched is my main, and second my chain heal macro ups my 4 guys to 100% HP, so the healers can consentrate on others. And as im sure you know.. This fight is won solely (is that even a word?) on the healing when the shield is up.

Supremus is doable, ill try a new way to respond on him running after one of my pants... The last time i got pwnd by volcanoes that spawned on my main running in front..
The next time, i will send the one with aggro on autorun in a direction we want supremus.

I havent done Teron, but when ghost you spam 1button and use 2 others from time to time, a simple macro setup of the second cast bar on every alt, to correspond icelance with lightning bolt will make this easier, since the alts that are still alive will most likely be stationary. If the main gets targeted for ghost, a simple main change will be enough to keep the alts going on teron.

On RoS, why would mana issues affect me, and not a single player? On Kaz in MH, i lived longer and did more dmg than alot of other ranged DPS.

Council, same as D&D on Rage.. easy to move, just strafe on all chars at the same time.. Same reaction time as other players.

A little more info is in my thread in the PvE part of the forums, i will keep it up to date ;) post any suggestions or questions there, im sure alot of other people are wondering too :)

As a sidenote, not as an attack in anyway, so with the upmost respect.. I am puzzled that you of all people see the limitations of multiboxing and not the possibilities, you are after all one of the pioneers of mulitboxing.
MH and BT does take ALOT more single alt control, i practice alot on this art, and god damnit i will kill Illidan with my boys!

When i need to move 2 alts at one time, ill start to see the limitations ;) but as long as its group control plus moving 1 alt, its doable :!:

[Akoko]

If I was a raid leader I wouldn't let 4 or 5 slots be taken up by a multiboxer. That's 1/5th of the entire raid group, and 1/5th of all its resources in one place, all in the hands of one person, who makes mistakes regardless of how much preparation, practice, and experience you have. Even if I could get over the risk factor alone, most guilds would fall apart if they would sub out 4 regular players for "non-human" so to speak characters.

If you do manage to get a permanent spot in a good raiding guild, I imagine that you will be under so much pressure that you would collapse. One mistake and you're gone. BG's are already a problem enough as it is, getting so much attention and having losses blamed entirely on the multiboxer. But imagine 4 runaways causing a wipe :P That would be a sure ticket for gkick x4, even if it's only to preserve the raiding initiative for the other single boxing members.

One of the reasons I two box instead of 5 box is because it's so much less intrusive. I'm sure it wouldn't be nearly as difficult to get two into a raid as opposed to 5. I also like to group with friends for regular instances. Playing entirely with myself defeats the entire purpose of the game :P

[Suvega]

You forget that I also PvE raid over multibox (Currently working on Kil'jae) :P

Elemental shaman do less dps then any other dps class with the same gear (Except maybe shadow preists or ret pallies?), and RoS is a dps critical fight. Simply put, progessing on RoS is completly determinent on your ability to push dps at critical moments, which an elemental shaman was DESIGNED not to do (max dps char). Shaman are designed to do mediocre dps, but to buff the shit out of everyone else. You are able to stack these buffs by putting all your shaman in one group to stack ToW to bring your dps to about par of a rogue, or a lock, etc. However RAID dps is still MUCH lower then if you actually created synergy between classes.

TLDR: Bringing 4/5 ele shamans can only be done when the group over gears an instance. (Gear overcoming the tuning of the fight)

I'm just saying, from a guild perspective, unless you progress WITH them, you can guarentee that no guild is going to want to take the chance on having 1 person mess up 4* as worse.

Not to mention you bring little synergy to the raid when you're all grouped up in one group, nor the fact that you have 1/5 the coordination of a single player of equal skill.
I respect what you have done in BT with how far you've gotten, but I'm saying that someone should NOT expect a free ride into a new guild. You have earned your spot, and are (most likely), able to maintain your status as you are more skilled then the rest of your guildmates.

The OP on the other hand, is asking why guilds won't take him in. Well it's because:
1) you have no rep with them
2) they have no idea of your skill
3) your requests are mad, why can one person bring 4 characters, and deprive their fellow guildmates of raiding?
4) Your class is an underpowered class that relies on less raid synergy to perform on par with other dps.

Multiboxing is a playstyle, High-end raiding is a playstyle. They dont' mix easily. You can casually raid multiboxing, but high end raids are intended to test each cahracters individual skill, in coordination with the rest of the people.

Simply put, they are designed to make it as hard as possible to multibox, if not impossible. And in fact I LOVE that they do this, because it gives me the chance to really test how well I can play a singular character well.


TL;DR:
OP: Don't expect to get in a guild already in BT unless they are your fanbois, or you have progressed with them through BT. No guild wants to carry you. (And no matter what you say, joining a guild who has already cleared content that you have never seen, is being carried).
Pants: I applaud your progression through BT, and I'm glad you have the opportunity to. I expect several challanges for you. 1) Coordination on fights (BT over any instance other then sw requires alot of individual movement and concentration). 2) DPS. Your class is sub-par dps. At least there is badge gear that allows you to overgear BT's tuning.

[TheBigBB]

There's no way a progression guild would get far into Tier 6 content using a 5-box team as a main raiding staple. I could see it being viable on many things, but not T6 bosses. On Teron, ghosts overlap a bit, what do you do when more than one of your characters is a ghost at the same time in a different spot, and the others are all still trying to DPS? It'd be a disaster. What do you do on Supremus when one of them gets punted away and the others are standing around potentially in a volcano? What do you do on Archi when someone is thrown into the air? What do you do on Azgalor when one of the toons gets doom and the others don't; can you run him over to the tank while the others maintain DPS and stay out of fire? What about Bloodboil, maybe he's at 30% and group 1 and 2 need replacements for bloodboil soaking at different times? Then the groups all spread out for phase 2, what happens?

Even if you found solutions for some bosses, it's not practical to expect to raid and get anywhere far. 1/9 BT is not a great feat, no offense to anyone. Najentus isn't the problem.

[Bluepants]

Even if you found solutions for some bosses, it's not practical to expect to raid and get anywhere far. 1/9 BT is not a great feat, no offense to anyone. Najentus isn't the problem.

The feat itself is not 1/9 BT, its 1/9 BT and 3/5 MH progress in 1 week.....
We went from wiping in SSC on lurker to take 2/5 MH on one night. (Yes, the two first bosses are easy compared to the rest)
I think it is all about focus, not purely skill, we have skilled players and OK gear to start MH/BT but in SSC/TK people just dont focus. its like running normal SP with your shammies everything goes easy, but if you loose focus for 1 min you still can wipe.

This type of discussion was started a long time ago.....
How can you cope with sheep? or AoE fear? or people ressing? a multiboxer can NEVER be good in arena....

Im not saying ill become the "Ellay" of PvE, its just that i have a fair chance of end-game raiding and ill take the challenges of every boss, if i find a boss i cannot do, ill leave the raid with 3 alts for that fight.(IF we can find the DPS to raplace them)

[Dominian]

Even if you found solutions for some bosses, it's not practical to expect to raid and get anywhere far. 1/9 BT is not a great feat, no offense to anyone. Najentus isn't the problem.

The feat itself is not 1/9 BT, its 1/9 BT and 3/5 MH progress in 1 week.....
We went from wiping in SSC on lurker to take 2/5 MH on one night. (Yes, the two first bosses are easy compared to the rest)
I think it is all about focus, not purely skill, we have skilled players and OK gear to start MH/BT but in SSC/TK people just dont focus. its like running normal SP with your shammies everything goes easy, but if you loose focus for 1 min you still can wipe.

This type of discussion was started a long time ago.....
How can you cope with sheep? or AoE fear? or people ressing? a multiboxer can NEVER be good in arena....

Im not saying ill become the "Ellay" of PvE, its just that i have a fair chance of end-game raiding and ill take the challenges of every boss, if i find a boss i cannot do, ill leave the raid with 3 alts for that fight.(IF we can find the DPS to raplace them)

Its up to you to prove us wrong and i wish you good luck :)

Dont listen to thoose who says its not possible!

[Kyudo]

Well I for one salute the Pants' and Funkstar's ambitions and progress to date. Just because these things have not been done before, records and barriers are there to be broken. If the guilds are willling to accept them as boxed chars all power to them. I wish you both the best of success. There is little point in naysaying their efforts before these bosses have even been attempted.

[Otlecs]

If the guilds are willling to accept them as boxed chars all power to them. I wish you both the best of success. There is little point in naysaying their efforts before these bosses have even been attempted.
I couldn't agree with this more, and I've read the adventures of the Pants (that sounds so wrong!!) with great interest and perhaps just a little twinge of envy ;)

But he is TRULY the exception rather than the rule, and I think all of the nay-saying commenst to date aren't detracting from his exceptional success, but rather managing the expectations of the original poster (and others) who is in fact having trouble getting into a raiding guild.

[Steph]

My guild is at 4/5 MH and 5/9 BT. I am the guild leader. My main is a tankadin. I box four shamans, focussing on PvP. 2/5 Brutal now, everything else I could buy for honor.

My 2 cents on this:

I took two of my shaman to Archimonde yesterday. The raid was led by the deputy guild master. The reasoning was that I could up the total amount of shaman in the raid to 5 and we could have a tremor totem for each group. I stuck my chars between the two groups I had to cover and it went reasonably well, once people stopped standing on top of me sharing their air bursts. I would not have gone for this though if we had enough people with sufficient gear and a stable connection available on that night.

I regularly ran Kara the last few weeks for the badges needed for the pvp cloak and the battlemaster trinket. Using both my tankadin as only tank on the run and my shaman as primary dps, that leaves five spots for 2-3 healers are more dps. Depending on the week, there have been dps that were stronger than my shaman or well, not stronger. =] The only bosses in Kara that I have not repeatedly and reliably killed while five-boxing are the Netherspite and the servant's quarter random boss, which we do not usually go for.

That being said, my point is: on any serious raid, I personally do not want to box. On farming raids that I outgear anyway I see no reason not to box. Feel free to call me a wimp. =]