Please help me edit this to be "friendly"

[Zaelar]

I'd like some help editing this post(for another forum+game). I have the original copy/pasted and would like some suggestions. I'm looking to remove sarcastic remarks and the like. I already have some ideas, but I'd like some more input.

For some background, the game we are talking about is melty blood(abbreviated mb) , and it is for a team tournament. Consider it like 3v3 arena, with the discussion being about allowing 2/3 of the same class on a team. Ciel is a character in the game; one of the best and hated by a lot of people(like rogues/druids), but she isn't so good that she can't be beaten. Akuma is a character in another game that is banned due to being way too good. Any time you see Kryo(person) or Hisui(character) mentioned it's about people that would be affected by the rule in a way that no one has complained about. The first sentence is technical stuff, comparable to properly using trinket and losing(line of sighting) in arena.(things that matter more against Ciel in general than against other characters)

The original thread: http://www.meltybread.com/forums/index.php?topic=489.0
The post is on page 10: http://www.meltybread.com/forums/ind...38297#msg38297

The post:

Just because you can't time meaties, bait stuff, recover at a reasonable frame, and/or figure out to press A instead of B against Ciel doesn't mean Ciel should be banned.(No, not 3x Ciel, just one.) Anyone who brings up 3x Ciel is, I'm assuming, also for the banning of Ciel in singles, since using Ciel more than half the time is clearly too good and needs to be banned(indirectly of course). Lets just force everyone to switch characters every game in singles so you can only use Ciel for one game each match. This promotes character variety too! If you don't have a good reason for the rule, (hint: you don't) then politely shut the fuck up and say you support the Hisui Battalion.(And tell me once you figure out how to do both.)

Quote from: Spirit Juice on Today at 05:54:32 AM
lolololz

I want to clarify that by competitive environment I mean playing a game in it's native form, without any modifications unless necessary(like banning akuma in st). You can take other forms of a game and play them just as competitively, but it isn't the same game, and usually isn't worth it if it isn't a big change.(and yes, banning akuma in st is a big change from everyone running akuma) And no, a tournament format isn't changing the game.(Although teams technically do it's more like a big format change for the purpose of this discussion.)

1) You asked why and I gave you the reason. So I'm not 100% sure on the "some idiot" remark, but it is a dumb rule. It specifically answers the question you ask, but holds no water in this debate? Well, technically the reason for it being discussed doesn't have any merit either way in whether or not it should be a rule, but then why ask the question? And how is it subjective? I'm objectively looking at it from the point of a competitive gamer/tournament runner. I'm not considering someone paying you to include the rule as a reason, or other such things. I wouldn't call someone an idiot for using it then, but the rule is still dumb.

2) It isn't subjective in any way. Name one fighting game where it shouldn't apply to in a competitive environment. Just because of your subjective view that you don't like the idea of 3x Ciel doesn't mean it should be a rule.

For the rest I was speaking in the hypothetical, IE it concerns every fighting game, past, present, and future. But since you want to specifically talk about MB, lets for a moment, since it is the worst example of a game to use the rule for the reason stated.

3a) How DOES it promote character variety? It forces(not promotes) at least 3 characters to be used. That isn't much variety considering, even in usa, we have most characters represented already. How many times have you seen more than two people in the top 8 of a mb tournament use the same character? This applies to almost any competitively played game right now that isn't a team game(mvc2, cvs2, kof). All of this happened without the rule. Now how is this going to improve this? All it does is force Kryo to play a secondary character or to team with different people.

Look at ST akuma again. If Akuma was allowed, everyone who was serious about the game would be playing him. Now that he's banned, we have several characters able to compete, even some low tier appearances. Now if you just had team tournaments...well thats covered below.

3b) It's anti-competitive because it forces you to pick worse characters for unnatural reasons. It's not that you can't be competitive with these restrictions, but it's no less dumb than saying ban a random character that you don't like.(oh and also banning ones that you don't mind like 3x hisui as well for no good reason) 3x Ciel(or any character) isn't the best team to go in with. This applies to any game without a broken as hell character. If you want to argue that it is the best, be sure to back it up with valid reasons. Having no counters would be one, but this applies the same to singles as well. It's also arguable whether or not it's true(That japanese matchup chart has disagreements here. There isn't one character where both Ciels and the other players thought it was bad for Ciel). Both general knowledge of mb and results show that she isn't broken or anywhere near unbeatable, so ST akuma level is out of the question.

Since we're talking specifically about MB for the moment, do any half way competent Ciel players plan to team up? Didn't think so...although now I half want to just to piss people off. How about any top tier characters? Closest you'll probably get is mech hisui.

So, anyone considering switching to Ciel [or another popular character(like we have any to begin with)] if you're allowed to team with other Ciel players? Didn't think so. Anyone considering switching characters at all? Oh hey Kryo, run that top tier secondary.

...so so far the rule caused an upper mid to switch to a top. Mission accomplished?

(But seriously, the 3 above paragraphs don't have anything to do with why the rule should(/n't) be there. If you seriously consider expected character selection a valid reason for the rule either way I am forced to question your intelligence.)

x1) Hypothetical game where theres only 2 playable characters(read: worth using) in teams of 3. Obviously the third loses for free and is just there to fill in the third slot. Think ST with Akuma, the non-Akumas would just be there to fill in the blanks while the Akumas actually play. Unless you read only that sentence by itself I don't see how it looks like I'm saying mb is like that though.

x2) I've said it before, if 3x a specific character is really a problem then that character needed to be banned in the first place. If she's such a problem then why aren't you petitioning that Ciel be banned in singles since anyone can use her 100% of the time? Banning teams doesn't add to strategy, it gives you less options. All you did was force people to go Ciel/Sion/Len instead of Ciel/Ciel/Ciel in your fantasy world where there's no reason to pick anything but the best characters on a team.

x3) So Arlieth knows what he's doing, but when it's something you don't like it's "lolololz"? It isn't a rule that I like, but theres nothing wrong with 2/3 in teams. Could get annoyingly long at times, but that is a personal preference thing. It only becomes "lolololz" when the time factor pushes a deadline, which is an unrelated issue.

...(pause)...

For those of you complaining about 3x ciel, why not just ban 3x ciel? Is 2x ciel too much? Then just ban 2x/3x ciel but allow 3x sion/len/akiha/mechsui, or are those too strong too? I know no one is afraid of 3x w.len, so why ban that? Where does the line get drawn? Also say stuff that doesn't also apply to singles unless you want it to apply there too.(Don't complain about cielx3 unless you seriously think ciel should be banned. Not just want her gone, but you seriously think that she is near ST akuma level broken.)

Character diversity got covered above. In case you missed it the results are about 18 against you, and 1 for you. I think it's actually a 0 for you, but I'll let you keep your point until another warc enters.

Standard.........stop sucking cock(I mean blindly x-copying shiny rules) and give a reason as to why you think it's a good rule.(remember: why you WANT the rule and why it's a GOOD rule can be different.)

Tiers got covered in there too. Ciel/Len/Sion is too broken now so we have to limit teams to no more than 1 top tier and 2 upper/top. Sorry kryo, you're going to have to switch characters again.

More strategy since you can't pick 3 of the same character. The only way it adds strategy is if 3x teams were overpowered to begin with, and the only way that is going to happen is with another Akuma reference. The only additional strategic decision that you might encounter is whether to play with better people using a secondary character because you play the same character, or to play with a worse player using only mains.

(And no, wall of text did not crit you, you got comboed by paragraphs.)

[Kaynin]

Read it. No idea whatsoever what it is about. Checked the thread, ran away after reading a few posts.

It doesn't seem like a community I'd enjoy competing it. Lots of swearing and nerdrage in that topic.

On your post, you could start removing the "stop sucking cock" and perhaps be more to the point in your arguements. It looks like a mess, might be because I have no idea what you're saying.

[Vyndree]

Read it. No idea whatsoever what it is about.

Yea, I'm afraid the terminology of the game is just going right over my head. I have no idea what's trying to be said.

[Zaelar]

Basically there's a dumb rule that people say they like, and they only post copy/pasted reasons for it which aren't even true. The rule wasn't there originally, and then people started talking about forming teams with the same character on them(one was a serious team, the other just for fun). This starts on page 7 or so. I'm thinking of just starting over now.

[Occam's Razor]

Food for thought.

Is ANY online game worth getting worked up over?

[Noxxy]

Ok - few things to start:
- I don't know the game so cannot / will not comment on the techical aspects
- No idea on the background of why the argument came about
- No idea of how YOU are perceived in the particular forums (i.e., how you act / react, etc.)
- No idea of the general trend / communication in the forum (733t 5p3@k?, sh1t st1rring??, etc.)

Bearing this in mind - respectfully - I would consider the following alterations (with attached reasoning)

(And no, wall of text did not crit you, you got comboed by paragraphs.)

Oh...yes it did....indeedy

Think of it this way - you are trying to put forward a logical argument - now imagine the scenario, you and the other guy/girl/thing face to face - do you honestly feel the other person/thing would keep quiet and pay attention as you read through your entire speech in one go? Especially sprinkled with F#4k u's, etc!!! Honestly???

Respectfully - the only way to eat an elephant is by taking small bites - clearly seperate your 5?? main points and put them into their own posts. Post them at a time of most advantage to you - definately not 5x posting = wasted

Think of your 5?? points as your MB team - the enemy is constantly behind a pole (LOS issues) and no amount of alt-tabbing can target them
- you only have a certain amount of mana left, if you charge blob style, he evades and your attack is rendered useless, you be OOM
- if you broke your team into 5 seperate units, all moving forward, but at different angles of attack and timing, you will have a better chance of getting at least some of your guys through

If you don't have a good reason for the rule, (hint: you don't) then politely shut the fuck up and say you support the Hisui Battalion.(And tell me once you figure out how to do both.)

If you seriously consider expected character selection a valid reason for the rule either way I am forced to question your intelligence.)

...stop sucking c##k...

All the parts where you say 'dumb'

/epic fail

Lose / cut all these attacks. These statements only weaken your stance. The person/thing being attacked will stop reading once they see this. All following logical arguments will be never read / lost.

Think of it this way MB style - your team Vs boss mob, tank spams taunt all through the fight, do you honestly think your 'insert other char here' [placeholder for logical argument/point] will be able to get the boss' attention at all???? Honestly??? No matter how much DPS your other chars have [i.e., how valid your other points are] they will just be lost

You may also lose support of the 'fence sitters' - you want to appeal to the average person reading this to be on your side - think of it as a bad pull = wipe


For the rest - TBH - it's just too much to read

[Ughmahedhurtz]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qWjzF9azd4s

Video of the gameplay.

I think I see what the argument is about (one char being "superior" to others; aka imbalanced character) but what are you asking from us again? If it's cleaning things up, then I'd start with Kaynin's suggestion to pull out all references to "sucking cock" for starters. Really, the rest is down to arguing your point on the factual and empirical merits instead of trying to say that the only reason people are against you is because they suck/don't understand/have emo reasons/etc. Arguing someone else can't think or is untalented won't do anything but piss them off, no matter how true it is.

[Zaelar]

Thanks for the help. I understand to not use sarcasm/insults. I'm more looking for gimmicks to remove the ones I used while keeping the same points.

Food for thought.

Is ANY online game worth getting worked up over?

Yes. If it's a game you take seriously it being online/offline doesn't matter. Also, it isn't an online game.(well technically there is a netplay hack...)

The main points for the rule are 3x good character and it promotes character diversity. These are pretty much the same thing, only different angles. I've pretty much compiled most of the anti-arguments, but would like some better wording, specifically on 6.

1. If a character is so good that 3x of them are too good then that character needs to be banned. There is no reason why this wouldn't apply to singles as well(which doesn't get any complains).
2. There is the logistics of then that team will have all the same weakness, which just means that 3x any character is a bad idea.
3. If it's just complaining about top tier, then the new complaint is naturally about best/second best/third best characters.

4. Forcing character diversity is anti-competitive as it forces the use of weaker characters. It then becomes wasting time while characters that will never win get eliminated while the real characters wait, or there was already character diversity to begin with and the rule didn't help at all.
5. Again, if a game needs this rule to have several characters be played it just means that certain ones are too good and need to be banned.(or it's just a popular character for other non-relevant reasons)
6. The logistics of character diversity; it doesn't mater at all. Whether a game has 5 characters and 20 instant lose selections or 20 characters and 5 instant lose selections is irrelevant. If seeing different characters is important to you then you need to find a game that has more characters, not force people to pick instant lose characters. Seeing more characters has nothing to do with competitive play.

Outside of the joke characters, pretty much every character gets played. There are 20ish (+ 2 joke) characters, and we have about 19 that get played competitively in usa. The rule is not going to increase it to 20.

I'd also like a better way to address things like "but this tournament did it" and "standard" in a way thats better than "but this guy killed himself and so should you" and "if everyone jumped off a bridge would you?".

[Ughmahedhurtz]

Is that character (Ciel, I think) really that good or is it just that people have an easier time playing it well due to easier combo key sequences or knowing that char's combos better than the other ones?

[Zaelar]

She's borderline best character in the game, but that doesn't mean much. It isn't surprising to find anyone aside from the joke characters doing well.