Wow forums are blowing up again...this time it's win trading...

[Eteocles]

So what was your point? I lost it in your epic exaggeration. I'm hoping it was 'cheaters deserve teh ban.'

I wasn't exaggerating, I was copying ideas and applied them to a different area to create sarcasm. The point wasn't that cheaters deserve to be banned, but that people who don't cheat don't deserve to be banned and that only blizzard gets to decide what is cheating and what isn't.

Hunters

* Boar Charge: This ability will no longer make Growl cast immediately after it generates excessive threat.
* The pet ability Growl will no longer scale with pet Attack Power.

Obviously blizzard is not ok with people using growl so they are nerfing it. They should just ban hunters that have pets with growl. I don't see any blue posts that specifically say that having a pet with growl isn't a banable offense.

You're comparing a Bug Fix(I know from experience that Boars were doing too much aggro for a long time) with that? That's just reaching for straws man, let it go

Also, you realize the post above this one is describing what powerlvling services do too, right? Using an illegal example to make yours sound legit doesn't quite work lol

[Zaelar]

Also, you realize the post above this one is describing what powerlvling services do too, right? Using an illegal example to make yours sound legit doesn't quite work lol

The post above this had nothing illegal about it. I imagine you're talking about:

if they bought a team, play the games LEGITIMATELY, and win/lose according to their own skill

Apply this to pve: Someone buys a lv30 and runs Gnomer, according to his(complete lack of) skill; wipes horribly. Gets nothing. Someone buys a lv60 char they have no prior experience playing; runs ramparts according to his skill; dies/wipes, group disbands, gets nothing. Now I'm not saying it's akin to buying chars(not at all), just the first closest example I could think of ...

You're the only one talking about the illegal act of buying with money and not buying with legitimate in game gold. Using an illegal example to make something legit sound illegal doesn't quote work.

[pinotnoir]

Here is an idea.. If they just made personal ratings stick and not reset there may be a way to fix everything.

So if I had a 2v2 and my partner and I had a 2000 personal rating it would be perma rating. What they can do is make the team rating the avg of all players personal rating. If you win games your rating goes up thus making your team rating rise. If you leave a team and join a new one you keep your rating. The new team will be the avg personal rating of its members.

This would stop several side effects of the current rating system.

First, it would keep highly rated players playing matches with equal rated players. No more low level players going up against full s3 geared players farming gold. Second, it would keep 2000+ teams from selling and restarting new teams to farm gold. Third, it would keep people from buying arena gear who did not work to earn it. I think buying a 2000+ team is cheating the system. There are many arguments to this and some I agree with. For example, you have to allow teams to add players. With personal ratings that reset to 1500 this causes the problem.

Blizzard has to do something to the people exploiting the system. I am sure their response is not 100% accurate. Some people are getting nailed who should not be. Hopefully those people can get things worked out. At this point of my wow playing I have little interest in arena. Its just a circle jerk of the same a holes. At least they put the past season on honor vendors. It gives people a fighting chance to compete in arena. As you all know the guys who are in full S3 gear will then use that Uber gear to be right back into full S4 gear. Skill helps but the majority of why the same people get geared up again is due to their items. New players fighting their way in the 1400-1800 bracket have a huge up hill fight in order to equal the gear of players who have started S1. I speak from experience when, months ago, my full S1 lock was trying to play games with a new team and losing to full S3 guys. It really sucks losing 16 points a game to some douche bags in full S3 and weapons who are farming gold.

If they made the change above that should solve some problems. I am not sure exactly what the new change has done because my desire to arena is very low. PVE is the only thing keeping me playing right now. I may farm the S2 gear just to do more dps in PVE. Battlegrounds are so boring to me. Playing the same boring battlegrounds over and over that you have played for a few years is not fun. If it was not for multiboxing pve I would quit WoW.

[Buzzatronic]

Once "Invite level 70 to low level instance" and "Buy experience points" become trainable skills then I'll agree with your agreeal. Until then, you're just QQing about using in game currency to buy in game services from other players.

I see, so either everything is cheating and not within the 'spirit' of the rules or the game or none of it is. Glad everything is so black and white in your world.

For me I see a very distinct difference between something like power leveling a solo character from 0-70 in less than 24 hours /played and circumventing a points and gear distribution system which gives an illegitimate game play advantage to people in the only person vs. person competitive aspect of this game.

Someone power leveling does nothing to my enjoyment of the game, it has no impact on me. However team sellers who farm the 1500-2000's every week in full S3 gear to sell a team to a team buyer do impact my enjoyment of the game and that's why I'm against it. Gold selling hurts the economy (and the player base because it breeds keyloggers and gold spam), team selling hurts the PvPers who are in the meat of the ratings bracket (and breeds win-traders) because they have to be farmed to create the product to sell. Both are bad for the game and I think based on today's patch changes, Blizzard agrees.

You can bring up all the irrational comparisons you want, but in my opinion it's wrong and it's hurtful to the PvPers out there who want to actually earn what we get and I'd like to see even more restrictions on how teams are formed and how players are allowed to move between teams.

[Vyndree]

My only comment here is that we need to look long and hard into the mirror before we start QQing about people who "skillup" (i.e. the 2.5 vs 3 example) other scrub players by *gasp* actually playing games with them. The amount of time spent by these so-called uber players to very literally CARRY a nublet around is skill within itself. Granted, I don't want to see a 1500's rated team with 2 uber skilled, uber geared players and one scrub in it.... Personally I'd imagine the cost to waste those uber geared players' time would help offset things, since it's not like they can just play their 7 games quickly, roll some peeps, and let the scrubs lose their 3 games. It would actually take time, effort, and ALOT of effort to "pvp powerlevel" these folks.

... but then look at the argument against multiboxing.


"It's cheating" -- see blizz quotes saying it's not
"It's cheating, I don't care what blizzard says" -- hmm... logical argument?
"It's unfair to see multiboxers in BGs just rolling us PuGs" -- see 2 uber SKILLED players leveling up a scrub and rolling the 1500 teams
"It's unfair that multiboxers are more synchronized/powerful than regular players" -- are not 2 uber SKILLED players more skilled than our normally played 3-man? But, then again, the normal players don't carry dead weight

Blizzard has never said that automating behaviors was OK. Blizzard has said that multiboxing was ok -- while at the same time saying "as long as there is not automation".
Blizzard has never said that win trading was OK. Blizzard has said that team/point/spot selling was ok -- while at the same time saying that it would be more difficult with 2.4.2.

===

Moral of the story -- I don't like seeing uber geared folks rolling undergeared people either, but before we start calling out arguments we need to take a good long hard look in the mirror to make sure we're not QQing just as bad as the forum trolls QQ about multiboxing. If blizzard says it's ok, and that 2 uber geared s3/s4 folks will roll people in the 1500's until they level back up out of it, then it's ok. Instead of QQ'ing about it, think about how you'd beat a comp like that -- identify the person who gets carried and totally ignore them? Spike one of the uber geared dudes down really quickly? CC which one?


That would actually be a productive discussion. Crying like a baby about blizzard's decisions, or claiming it's cheating "because I said so and I don't like it" really changes nothing. Blizzard will fix it when they get around to fixing it -- and judging by the fixes they implement for the poor dying shaman class (yes, they have major problems when not stacked in 4/5 shammy groups like we do when multiboxing), that won't be anytime soon. Learn to deal with it until policy changes.

[Eteocles]

I'm getting a little tired of teh "YER JUST LIKE THE ANTIBOXERS" comment...blizz IS actively working to control arena gear. Not just wintrading but who wears it period. Blizz isn't actively working to disable boxers; they're not trying to control how we /follow or target/assist. Posting things like that are only gonna inflame the fire further Vyn, I ask please to avoid using that comparison.

Now keep in mind guys, it IS a strong subject to both sides. But. This is still a DISCUSSION. Heated or not. Let's try not to put each other down in the process of making our views known. :P

[Vyndree]

I'm getting a little tired of teh "YER JUST LIKE THE ANTIBOXERS" comment...blizz IS actively working to control arena gear.

The difference is that blizz is actively working to control arena gear from CHEATING (which was the topic thread -- cheating via win-trading)

Blizz has confirmed that selling teams, points, and/or rating -- provided it is done LEGITIMATELY -- is not cheating. Until that changes, arguing that it's cheating is a moot point regardless of opinion. Blizzard decides. This was the only analogy I was trying to make since we can all sympathize about being on the other end of the stick -- we should have more empathy regardless of opinion because we're in a similar situation. This whole attitude is something that I am very familiar with having trolled the multiboxing trollers, and let me tell you -- I don't want us putting our foot in our mouths by acting the same way towards others.

If we can move past that and deal with "ok, so how do we counter said problem players" would be a much more productive discussion -- at least in my opinion.

[Knytestorme]

I have to say, I do agree with the point Vyn is making. If we want to be able to appear to be making solid arguments and points against QQ'ers on the forums regarding multiboxing then we shouldn't be quite willing to go and use their arguments for our own purposes against something we don't like.

Yes, Blizzard have stated that win-trading is against the rules, and multiboxing isn't and no-one is disputing that...what is the issue is when someone here quite freely states "I don't care what Blizzard say, it's immoral/against the spirit" when it comes to points-trading. That argument is used against us time and again on the forums and we always have the correct reply to it so how can it make the community look anything but hypocritical when we start using it about something that is not against the rules but we disagree with? It only takes one smart troll on the forums to work out how to use that against us in a multi-boxing thread and that entire line of reasoning goes down the tubes.

In regards to points-trading, I'm not sure where I sit yet. I know it's annoying as hell lately to be trying to get my 10 games run each week with ~1100 rating and coming up against teams rocking 16k tanks, mages that can blizzard my entire team down to 0 in two casts, lots of s3 gear etc BUT it's also not against the rules so I deal with it and don't take it too seriously. Personally I think that the guys selling the points could be doing more productive things in game to be raising cash (since they are going to gain pretty much the same ammount of points whether they are rated 2000 or 2100 in the week) but that's their choice, and it's the choice of the buyer what they want to spend their money on...neither of which really affect me overall. Yes there is a distinct affect on me for those 10 games, but after that I am not bothered by them again so why should I want to try to regulate the way someone spends their time in game. If we compare this to real sports, in things like Formula 1 (or other motor racing leagues) it's quite common for a driver to actually get their seat in the team not through their ability but because they being with them sponsors...for example, Shinji Nakano replaced a driver in the Super Aguri team last year because the team were having financial difficulties and he brought sponsors with him worth over $10m that would only sign-up if he were driving.

Win-trading however was never going to be let fly by Blizzard and I don't see why people would be so short-sighted as to think it would. Blizzard are trying to position arena's as a competitive and exciting e-sport (never mind they still don't have good spectator functionality in the client to allow people to watch the top matches remotely) and the whole concept of win-trading is analagous to match-fixing in regular sports. I don't know about anyone else, but match-fixing has never gone down well in any sport and I can't see how anyone with an ounce of common sense could not see that the banhammer would be dropped hard on anyone doing it in the arenas...the same as athlete's being suspended or banned for it in real sports.

To me, this revolves around Blizzard wanting arenas to be able to be presented as an e-sport and bring them in another revenue stream without a hint of impropriety around it and they are doing what they have to to get rid of any perceived taint and I agree with them on that, but I don't think they should be classing points-traders with win-traders given the comparisons between the two that can be made with real sports.

OT: How can someone use S3 weapons/shoulders if they form a new team and start at 1500 PR? And if my ratings are at 1100 as they are now can I just fold my team and restart it each week, drop from 1500 to ~1400 points, get points based on that rating rather than just staying as I am and making points on a constantly lowering rating?

[Buzzatronic]

If we can move past that and deal with "ok, so how do we counter said problem players" would be a much more productive discussion -- at least in my opinion.

"How can we counter said problem players"? That's easy, remove their incentive to maximize their profit for minimal effort by not participating in the economy of bypassing the legitimate gain of arena points to begin with.

I'm sure that's not the answer you're looking for but since none of us are developers or designers for Blizzard, there's not much more "we" can do other than make win trading a zero profit proposition.

[Buzzatronic]

That would actually be a productive discussion. Crying like a baby about blizzard's decisions ...

I'm not sure name calling is productive either, but what do I know.