Back to the Drawing Board

[nodoze]

I hope your DLMMPr testing goes OK but please do note that neither Druid nor Warrior do the AoE Threat nor AoE DPS damage as well as the Paladin even in Classic-WoW and it only gets better in TBC-Classic... For me the AoE Approach is better when you go "all in on the theme" with every slot contributing to AoE damage (some obviously more than others). Large pulls can be a little hectic but I find them fun and challenging and if you do medium sized pulls it can actually be relaxing enough such that I can divert focus enough to understand audio-books or news while dungeon grinding...

For any long term 5box team gear mix of cloth vs mail vs leather vs Plate really isn't a factor to me. In the long run it really just doesn't matter as you will be disenchanting/auctioning/vendoring everything...

Regarding team composition I and some others have actually made our preferred 5box team in Classic-WoW: Paladin+3Locks+Priest and I only swap in a mage for certain circumstances (like bad curses) and otherwise I just use my mage for free food/water/portals...

In Classic-WoW my DPS rotation has typically only been 1 interaction every 15 seconds for HellFire so roughly I interact with the Paladin Tank ~twice as often to refresh Consecration (8 seconds) per HellFire Refresh and I often just tank-&-spank and then focus on AoE healing on the Priest as needed (or if I have excess Priest mana I spam Holy Nova to help AoE DPS+Heal).

That has been fine for Classic WoW but I think it wise to have the ability to consistently kite for TBC-Classic's Heroic Dungeons which points toward:

• - Swapping a Lock for a Mage for Blizzard to get consistent slows so Paladin can easily kite mobs through Consecration+Blizzard+Fire;
• - Swapping the Priest for a Shaman with EarthBind totem (not as good as mage slows but is the only solid option if you keep 3 Locks);
• - OR BOTH (if the AoE slows stack);

Doing the AoE damage at range was fine when we could use ISboxer for @Cursor but without ISboxer so far the only way I have been able to consistently use AoE is via @Player which brings a few factors to mind because I now have to tank-n-spank or kite closer to my DPS as follows:

• -Earthbind_Totem: 45 secs Radius: 10 yards;
• -Hellfire: Duration 15 secs: Radius: 10 yards;
• -Rain_of_Fire: Duration 8 secs: Radius: 8 yards;
• -Blizzard: Duration 8 seconds: Radius: 8 yards;
• -Consecration: Duration 8 seconds: Radius 8 yards;

Note:The radius of Consecration does not matter much as you can kite them through the middle of Consecration but to kite you do need to keep them within the edge of the DPS folk's AoE and 10 yard AoE is easier than 8 yards...

Going from 3Locks to swap in 1 Mage you now have to refresh every 8 seconds and kite within 8 yards even if the Warlocks are 15/10 so switching them to be Rain_or_Fire or adding even a 2nd Mage doesn't change things as much as adding the first Mage...

That being said I get most of what I want from the 1st Mage and a 2nd Mage doesn't really add much while 2 Warlocks still gives me:

• 2 AoE Taunts every pull to give my Paladin some respite (kinda like having 2 Warrior Cooldowns);
• Note the AoE Taunts also inflict -10% hit on all mobs for 15 seconds each (so 30 seconds per pull);
• 2 Curses;
• 2 Soulstones;
• 2 Summoners so I don't have to summon myself then hearth and get everything done in only 1:50;

I also prefer Warlocks as mine are SoulLinked and very Tanky which is good for me when I am only half paying attention... When running 3 Locks I find 2 AoE Taunts enough so I typically run improved Imp on the 3rd Lock and thus have improved stamina buff for the full party and the improved fire_shield for my Tankadin which also helps...

So to your questions you can do this "all AoE approach" with any combination of Locks+Mages (or all Locks or all Mages) though personally for TBC-Classic I would have at least 1 of each and give the nod to 2 Warlocks myself. 3Locks pushes you to Shaman so you can Kite but then I have worries about only having chain_heal with 3Locks+3Pets+Paladin+Shaman and feel Priest's true AoE heals makes more sense in that party (so catch-22)... 0-2 Locks seems more Shaman friendly than 3 Locks+3pets...

Note also that Shaman brings more than downgrading to hard-casted-gimped-AoEish Heals to pick up a consistent slow... Shaman totems & abilities can also bring things like:

• Air: +101 spell damage/healing or -20% AoE Threat + Grounding on demand;
• Earth: -50% slow or Tremor AoE removing Fears/Charms/Sleeps or -43 melee damage + AoE Taunt;
• Fire: AoE damage;
• Water: AoE Health or Mana;
• Guardians: Taunter or Fire damage one;
• Reincarnation;
• Bloodlust;

All really smexy though I am still torn as the Priest's extra Stamina and HoT and shield (all improved) help make my party more tanky and I really like the simplicity of instants & true AoE Heals from the Priest and look forward to another instant AoE heal from Circle of Healing in TBC-Classic... With all that in mind, for me for TBC Classic, I am still torn between:

• -PaLLMPr
• -PaLLMS

If I don't have time to finish leveling my Shaman before the Portal opens then the decision may be made for me...

Hope that helps...

[Murdertrain]

Man you aren't kidding about how borked this setup is without a paladin's aoe threat lol.

Spent the evening getting absolutely destroyed in Strat by the big undead packs with druid tank. BUT! It definitely served as sort of a "proof-of-concept" in that it is quite manageable albeit a little more demanding than the old ways. Adding a pally with strong aoe threat looks as if it could be eminently doable.

As for the MML vs LLM question, your post and my ingame experience has shown me that, while 8 seconds seems like an eternity to mouseover/cast on 3/4 other windows, it's really not--especially when you're trying to gather aggro on 8 mobs with a druid. I definitely now see the ease of use in an MLL or even LLL group. A 15 second hellfire channel leaves a lot of time for other actions. So much so that I'm now strongly considering PaLLLS. Especially early on I as I'm learning the dungeons, I think the extra 3 VW taunts will really make life easy. Having never done the heroics (or even the normals) in TBC, I've never had to kite, but a 10m hellfire (x2-3) and a 10m earthbind (45 sec!!!) seems like it will allow me ample time to use the pally tank to keep everyone safe. After I get my bearings, maybe sub in a mage at some point. If, however, I start to feel comfortable running this setup before TBC opens, I would definitely take your advice of PaLLMS.

That's not even mentioning the wipe prevention of 2-3x Soulstones (as you pointed out) and an ankh, plus all the tools a Pally brings that I've yet to learn.

Once again thanks for such comprehensive discussion. I genuinely hope we can find a way to do what we love doing while staying within the rules. I've never met a multiboxer that wasn't friendly and helpful, so it'd be nice to see the community grow while not constantly looking over our shoulder.