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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by jak3676 View Post
    For that monitor - don't swap inputs via remote. Instead look at "Mouse without Boarders", "Synergy", "Barrier" - all essentially a software K/M switch that will automatically switch your keyboard and mouse.

    Not sure I understand Aster (https://www.ibik.ru/) - made me google it as I'm just not going to click on a .ru link. Why not run virtualbox is you want a free VM solution?
    I use Aster to split my PC with my girl friend, the software allows to split monitor/resources/windows user/inputs/sound on the same machine.
    Free VM Solutions didn't offer the ease of use / setup and from what I found. (I opted for paid windows instead of free linux so to say)

    Quote Originally Posted by nodoze View Post
    That sounds like a good plan and as long as long as you limit 1 input causing 1 action to 1 client you are likely in keeping with both the letter and spirit of the law.

    Grats on that 'LG 43UD79' as it is younger (and improved) sibling to my 'Dell P4317Q' as that should be pretty sweet!

    What are the classes/roles you plan to run in your initial 5box?

    Are you running 4Mages+Priest (4MP) or PaladinTank+3Mages+Priest (Pa3MP) or something else?
    4MP and Warrior3MP.

    Have been playing those since AQ Patch. Leveled up the team originally to grind for Scarab Lord.
    Mostly just using them for profession cooldowns, less boring fishing and the occasional Dungeon for fun and challenge.



    Quote Originally Posted by H3artl3ss View Post
    @bpkdasbsaum I thought VM's were against TOS?
    Don't think so, didn't find any mention of this. I also just put the VM as a reference, I should have said, multiseat.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multis...virtualization

    Multiseat desktop virtualization is an entirely new methodology which combines the cost saving benefits and ease of maintenance of server based computing, the time savings of hardware agnostic cloning, and the capabilities of desktop virtualization, with the performance capabilities of real PC functionality. It takes advantage of this fact to enable ordinary users to install a multiseat PC giving 2 "seats" with a dual-core CPU or 4 "seats" with a quad-core CPU. The operating system of this PC is initially installed just like a regular PC. Regular PC users can install and use this type of product without having to install servers, or know how to manage complicated, server based computing or server based virtualization products. It has the combined benefits of a Type 1 hypervisor and a Type 2 hypervisor virtual machine. It does this with the efficiency of a Type 1 hypervisor while maintaining the portability of a Type 2 hypervisor.

  2. #52

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    The only thing that maybe somewhat virtualization related that I have seen Blizz discuss as problematic was "Cloud Computing" but that is not the same thing as a local VM host or VM.
    Last edited by nodoze : 11-10-2020 at 05:46 PM

  3. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by pillows View Post
    I like it. Much more compact than what I'm looking at doing. I'll probably go with https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Optiplex.../dp/B075WYN1JL, then add some 1/2 height Nvidia GT 1030 or 1050s depending what is cheap at the time. (1030's are about $90 new where 1050's are about $150, but there's always a ton of used 1050's on ebay an the like with people upgrading to "good" graphics cards - so used prices are actually similar)

  4. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by pillows View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by jak3676 View Post
    I like it. Much more compact than what I'm looking at doing. I'll probably go with https://www.amazon.com/Dell-Optiplex.../dp/B075WYN1JL, then add some 1/2 height Nvidia GT 1030 or 1050s depending what is cheap at the time. (1030's are about $90 new where 1050's are about $150, but there's always a ton of used 1050's on ebay an the like with people upgrading to "good" graphics cards - so used prices are actually similar)
    My systems are in between yours physical dimension-wise. All of mine are older pre-Ryzen 4core AMD APUs in mini-ATX Motherboards with ~256GB SSDs with no Discrete Graphic cards and are fine for WoW. Mine are all running 16GB but would be fine at 8GB for WoW.

    In my case until recently those 4 boxes were for upto 4 of my kids to play on with each mirroring their screen to a quadrant in my 4-input Dell monitor so that isn't really multiboxing but would have been fine if I had been multiboxing on all of them so I think you both have a good chance of being successful with those setups.

    If possible even in a hardware broadcast/multicast setup, I would do your keybinds without multicasting 1 of your actions to actually do something in more than 1 wow client at a time. Even if you do use a synchronous USB for your DPS clients (or even all 5 of your clients) you can still eliminate 1 of your keystrokes causing simultaneous action in more than 1 wow client by keybinding different keys in each wow client... In that approach if you press 3 keys to do Arcane Explosion in 3 mages you are still only doing 1 keypress per AE because for each key pressed 2 mages ignore unbound keys sent to them...

    For example on the Koolerton, if you had 3 white keys in a row set to send 1 2 and 3 respectively you would in your 3 mages the following keybinds:

    -Mage 1: Keybind 1 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 2 & 3;
    -Mage 2: Keybind 2 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 1 & 3;
    -Mage 3: Keybind 3 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 1 & 2;

    If you do that you are hopefully future proofing your setups and in keeping with both the letter of the law and the spirit of the law... That hopefully will help keep us from all having to buy FrankenBoards (TM).

    With the above approach technically a single Koolertron could easily have enough keys to do all your main needs and be always multicasting via the syncronous USB to all 5 WoW clients with no single keypress causing more than 1 action in 1 wow client at a time.

    With this Koolertron there are plenty of keys and even a 4MP could easily have 4 Keys set up for each main spell with plenty to spare. If you want to do them to cast pretty much at the same time then press the 4 keys... If you want to Round Robin something then press them in sequence in the row.

    Very straight forward to organize and the keys could even be color codes and/or labeled with icons if desired:

    https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B076LRJ528

    In the end I suspect enough people will multicast and even the above may not be allowed and we may be forced to use certified compliant FrakenBoards (TM).
    Last edited by nodoze : 11-25-2020 at 01:35 PM

  5. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by bpkdasbsaum View Post
    I use Aster to split my PC with my girl friend, the software allows to split monitor/resources/windows user/inputs/sound on the same machine.

    Free VM Solutions didn't offer the ease of use / setup and from what I found. (I opted for paid windows instead of free linux so to say)
    ...
    I also just put the VM as a reference, I should have said, multiseat.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multis...virtualization

    Multiseat desktop virtualization is an entirely new methodology which combines the cost saving benefits and ease of maintenance of server based computing, the time savings of hardware agnostic cloning, and the capabilities of desktop virtualization, with the performance capabilities of real PC functionality. It takes advantage of this fact to enable ordinary users to install a multiseat PC giving 2 "seats" with a dual-core CPU or 4 "seats" with a quad-core CPU. The operating system of this PC is initially installed just like a regular PC. Regular PC users can install and use this type of product without having to install servers, or know how to manage complicated, server based computing or server based virtualization products. It has the combined benefits of a Type 1 hypervisor and a Type 2 hypervisor virtual machine.

    It does this with the efficiency of a Type 1 hypervisor while maintaining the portability of a Type 2 hypervisor.
    EDIT: HEADS UP THAT MULTIPLE FOLK HAVE HAD ISSUES GETTING THE KOOLERTRON KEYPADS WORKING THROUGH THE SHUONE KM SYNCHRONIZER... IF YOU HAVE A KOOLERTRON YOU SHOULD USE THE AMIOS KM DEVICES (or someone other than ShuOne).

    IF YOU GET A DIFFERENT KEYBOARD/KEYPAD WITH HARDWARE STORED MACROS WORKING THROUGH THE KM SYNCRONIZER PLEASE LET US KNOW WHAT MODEL(S) YOU FIND ARE WORKING by putting updates into
    this thread...

    ALSO HEADS UP THAT AT LEAST 2 PEOPLE HAVE TRIED THE Multiseat Configuration software (Astra) and while it worked it was slow for WoW and both switched to Virtual Machines (VMs) via VMware (or Virtual Box, etc)...


    I think bpkdasbsaum is onto something here when looking at MultiSeat Desktop Virtualization... Full VMs have significantly more overhead and complexity than a Multiseat Configuration (MC) which in some approaches can give multiple unique desktops with only 1 install of the Operating System. VMs are also a fine approach and cheaper than buying separate PCs but just have more overhead than a MC needing more RAM/CPU/storage and typically 1 copy of the Operating System and a full install of WoW per VM...

    I need to double-check all of the below when I have more time but this could save folk lots of money so I figured best to get this out here ASAP even if I don't have time to double-check everything...

    Those looking at buying 4+ more PCs to do multiboxing may be well served to look into this more. Your current system may already have more than enough resources to do this in most areas and thus could result in both a cheaper outlay of cash and a better experience going forward. This approach may well also save energy/space/complexity/etc...

    For example my current system has plenty of RAM and CPU and I am pretty sure my discrete video card natively supports upto 4 monitors and that is before any display port hubs/extensions & not counting the built in graphics on my CPU/motherboard which may be fine to support 1 WoW client "follower" at low settings/resolutions. I am thinking to support 5 MultiSeat Virtual desktops running WoW from my current PC I should at most need to add 1 video card and maybe a USB extender for KM for the desktops.

    Target 5box setup (credit most of this concept from bpkdasbsaum):

    • Run 5x Windows Desktops on 1 PC via MultiSeat Virtualization (or via regular VMs);
    • Each Windows Desktop (or VM) runs one wow client;
    • Primary Windows Desktop does Video to Primary monitor;
    • 4 other Virtual Desktops do Video to a 2nd Monitor in a quad layout (multiple ways to do this);
    • Primary Desktop has dedicated main keyboard+Mouse;
    • Use "synergy-like" software to allow your main keyboard+mouse to "float" between all 5 desktops (one at a time);
    • Small keypad (or 2nd keyboard) to send game commands to all 5 desktops (1 keypad to control all 5 game clients) via KM synchronizer; Could also have a 2nd mouse here for ground AoE targeting...


    I am thinking that many people could do the above resulting in a pretty nice setup leveraging what they have and only spending something like:
    • $0: Leverage your current main multiboxing PC as much as possible;
    • $0-$99?: VMs or MultiSeat desktop virtualization software (try Aster_here ... There are likely multiple vendors and possibly some decent free Open Source options);
    • $0-$?: If current MotherBoard/IntegratedGraphics + Discrete Video Card can't support 5 monitors then you likely will need to add something like a Display Port Hub or a 2nd Video Card. Even a really nice Video card may be better and cheaper than buying 4+ more video cards &/or 4+ PCs...
    • $0-$9-$26: I currently have at least 6 unused USB ports on my PC which may be enough... If you don't have enough USB ports you may need to buy an external USB hub/switch OR a PCI card that adds more USB ports...
    • $0-$29: Open Source "Synergy-like" Barrier software that allows your main mouse/keyboard travel to all 5 desktops... That or buy the Synergy software; Note that the MultiSeat Virtualization software (Aster?) may have built in tools/capabilities for this.
    • $35-$?: KM Syncronizer: Likely needed for either approach. Included cables likely work easier if you are just connecting them all to the same PC...
    • $55-$77: 2nd Keypad for KM Syncronizer: Likely something like this 23key-Keypad or this 48key-Keypad would be ideal depending on how many keys you need for all 5 clients to do all the roles (Classic WoW is pretty basic). You should be able to feed this to all 5 Desktops for gaming from one single keypad and just bind different keybinds per wow client*...
    • $78: If using Aster 4x1 Quad Multi-viewer to use just 1 monitor to see 4 outputs (if using VMs you can't use this and instead just put the VMs on a 2nd monitor);
    • 0$-$79-$?: If you don't already have 2 monitors you likely will need a 2nd Monitor for 4 clients via the above multiview; Obviously you can get bigger/better monitors to your taste at more expense... Some existing monitors can handle multiple inputs or Picture in Picture or Picture by Picture so this all may be do-able in 1 existing monitor...

    Rough Total: ~$168 to ~$400 depending on what you already have and can leverage. Does not include cost of a 2nd Video card nor cables if you need them.

    That is all I have time for now to spec out but I wanted to put this down ASAP for folk considering buying 4+ small PCs for multiboxing... Even if your existing computers can't handle the extra overhead of multiseat desktop virtualization you may be able to keep your current PC for your main WoW client and just buy a 2nd slightly better PC for less than buying 4 weaker PCs...

    *For those not clear what I envision by using 1 keypad for all 5 virtual desktops, the following is a simplified example:

    If your goal was to have 3 keys in a row to allow 3 different mages to each shoot FrostBolts, you could configure them as follows and use 1 keyboard to control all 3 and not MultCast even when using a synchronizer:

    -Mage 1: Keybind 1 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 2 & 3;
    -Mage 2: Keybind 2 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 1 & 3;
    -Mage 3: Keybind 3 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 1 & 2;

    Similarly, Healing keys would only be bound on the Healer (and the other 4 clients would ignore the key-presses as they don't have that key bound...

    Same thing for Tanking keys (if you are not running a 4DPS+Healer team)...
    Last edited by nodoze : 11-25-2020 at 07:18 PM

  6. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by nodoze View Post
    I think bpkdasbsaum is onto something here when looking at MultiSeat Desktop Virtualization...

    I need to double-check all of the below when I have more time but this could save folk lots of money so I figured best to get this out here ASAP even if I don't have time to double-check everything...

    Those looking at buying 4+ more PCs to do multiboxing may be well served to look into this more. Your current system may already have more than enough resources to do this in most areas and thus could result in both a cheaper outlay of cash and a better experience going forward. This approach may well also save energy/space/complexity/etc...

    For example my current system has plenty of RAM and CPU and I am pretty sure my discrete video card natively supports upto 4 monitors and that is before any display port hubs/extensions & not counting the built in graphics on my CPU/motherboard which may be fine to support 1 WoW client "follower" at low settings/resolutions. I am thinking to support 5 MultiSeat Virtual desktops running WoW from my current PC I should at most need to add 1 video card and maybe a USB extender for KM for the desktops.

    Target 5box setup (credit most of this concept from bpkdasbsaum):

    • Run 5x Windows Desktops on 1 PC via MultiSeat Virtualization (not regular VMs);
    • Each Window Desktop runs one wow client;
    • Primary Windows Desktop does Video to Primary monitor;
    • 4 other Virtual Desktops do Video to a 2nd Monitor in a quad layout (multiple ways to do this);
    • Primary Desktop has dedicated main keyboard+Mouse;
    • Use "synergy-like" software to allow your main keyboard+mouse to "float" between all 5 desktops (one at a time);
    • Small keypad to send game commands to all 5 desktops (1 keypad to control all 5 game clients) via KM synchronizer; Could also have a 2nd mouse here for ground AoE targeting...


    I am thinking that many people could do the above resulting in a pretty nice setup leveraging what they have and only spending something like:
    • $0: Leverage your current main multiboxing PC as much as possible;
    • $0-$99?: MultiSeat desktop virtualization software (not necessarily Aster as there are likely multiple vendors and possibly some decent free Open Source options);
    • $0-$?: If current MotherBoard/IntegratedGraphics + Discrete Video Card can't support 5 monitors then you likely will need to add something like a Display Port Hub or a 2nd Video Card. Even a really nice Video card may be better and cheaper than buying 4+ more video cards &/or 4+ PCs...
    • $0-$9-$26: I currently have at least 6 unused USB ports on my PC which may be enough... If you don't have enough USB ports you may need to buy an external USB hub/switch OR a PCI card that adds more USB ports...
    • $0-$29: Open Source "Synergy-like" Barrier software that allows your main mouse/keyboard travel to all 5 desktops... That or buy the Synergy software; Note that the MultiSeat Virtualization software (Aster?) may have built in tools/capabilities for this.
    • $35-$?: KM Syncronizer: Likely needed for either approach. Included cables likely work easier if you are just connecting them all to the same PC...
    • $55-$77: 2nd Keypad for KM Syncronizer: Likely something like this 23key-Keypad or this 48key-Keypad would be ideal depending on how many keys you need for all 5 clients to do all the roles (Classic WoW is pretty basic). You should be able to feed this to all 5 Desktops for gaming from one single keypad and just bind different keybinds per wow client*...
    • $78: 4x1 Quad Multi-viewer to use just 1 monitor to see 4 outputs;
    • 0$-$79-$?: If you don't already have 2 monitors you likely will need a 2nd Monitor for 4 clients via the above multiview; Obviously you can get bigger/better monitors to your taste at more expense... Some existing monitors can handle multiple inputs or Picture in Picture or Picture by Picture so this all may be do-able in 1 existing monitor...

    Rough Total: ~$168 to ~$400 depending on what you already have and can leverage. Does not include cost of a 2nd Video card nor cables if you need them.

    That is all I have time for now to spec out but I wanted to put this down ASAP for folk considering buying 4+ small PCs for multiboxing... Even if your existing computers can't handle the extra overhead of multiseat desktop virtualization you may be able to keep your current PC for your main WoW client and just buy a 2nd slightly better PC for less than buying 4 weaker PCs...

    *For those not clear what I envision by using 1 keypad for all 5 virtual desktops, the following is a simplified example:

    If your goal was to have 3 keys in a row to allow 3 different mages to each shoot FrostBolts, you could configure them as follows and use 1 keyboard to control all 3 and not MultCast even when using a synchronizer:

    -Mage 1: Keybind 1 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 2 & 3;
    -Mage 2: Keybind 2 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 1 & 3;
    -Mage 3: Keybind 3 to FrostBolt and unbind keys 1 & 2;

    Similarly, Healing keys would only be bound on the Healer (and the other 4 clients would ignore the key-presses as they don't have that key bound...

    Same thing for Tanking keys (if you are not running a 4DPS+Healer team)...
    So theoretically you could use a program like Aster, and set it to float your keyboard between the desktops and keep it within the new 1-1-1 rule? Like a ISboxer round robin set up but without going through Innerspace.

  7. #57

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    you could. But if you're going for a round robin type setup, I don't think you need any sort of virtualization at all (no need for aster). You can macro some "alt-esc" keybinds into your normal rotation.

  8. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by jak3676 View Post
    you could. But if you're going for a round robin type setup, I don't think you need any sort of virtualization at all (no need for aster). You can macro some "alt-esc" keybinds into your normal rotation.

    Good Call, Seems to be working well so far, just need a to tweak a few of my macros and change a few keybinds and i should be running again
    Ill have to get my stream set up set up again lol.

  9. #59

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jak3676 View Post
    you could. But if you're going for a round robin type setup, I don't think you need any sort of virtualization at all (no need for aster). You can macro some "alt-esc" keybinds into your normal rotation.
    Quote Originally Posted by skeezy View Post
    Good Call, Seems to be working well so far, just need a to tweak a few of my macros and change a few keybinds and i should be running again
    Ill have to get my stream set up set up again lol.
    My main problem with the Alt-Esc approach is that it is relative to the last window you were on and only goes to the next window. That works pretty well for the DPS but doesn't really help for the Tank/Healer as much.

    You may actually have a better result from incorporating both approaches... For example for Tank+Healer+3DPS:

    You could do Tank & Healer on your primary desktop where you drive from the Tank and mainly use the mouse to heal from the healer like 'Tuts does here'

    Then via hardware (KM synchronizer) send round robin keybinds with alt-esc to the 3DPS which could be together on a single PC/VM/Virtual-Desktop.

    At most it would be a 2 PC setup but could easily be a single PC setup (via PC+VM or regular desktop+virtual desktop).
    Last edited by nodoze : 11-15-2020 at 07:11 AM

  10. #60

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by nodoze View Post
    My main problem with the Alt-Esc approach is that it is relative to the last window you were on and only goes to the next window. That works pretty well for the DPS but doesn't really help for the Tank/Healer as much.

    You may actually have a better result from incorporating both approaches... For example for Tank+Healer+3DPS:

    You could do Tank & Healer on your primary desktop where you drive from the Tank and mainly use the mouse to heal from the healer like 'Tuts does here'

    Then via hardware (KM synchronizer) send round robin keybinds with alt-esc to the 3DPS which could be together on a single PC/VM/Virtual-Desktop.

    At most it would be a 2 PC setup but could easily be a single PC setup (via PC+VM or regular desktop+virtual desktop).
    Yes, movement with the alt-esc is awkward at best and wasnt very fun running dungeons like that, and you can't use the mouse make window active feature as your mouse cycles to the window that is being activated with alt-esc
    I normally Drive from my healer and switch to Tank as needed, Very Rarely did I drive from a DPS toon.
    I am leaning towards a 2 PC set up- I have a KM Synchronizer on its way. Though I probably don't need one should just go the Virtual Route, Hence my original question about Aster.
    My 2nd PC is a laptop, so i can attach a mouse directly to it if i need one, was gonna connect my keypad to the KM and have it broadcast the dps macro. Would just need to rebind the movement keys so the toons on the 2nd pc dont run away.

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