MMMMP vs LLLLP For PvP?

[Battleshrimp]

When doing 4x caster and a healer: how do you prefer to drive? From the healer PoV or from one of the casters?

[vincenntxue]

I am just doing both. With my mages, I specced them frost, and the priest Holy, and lots of pulls so far (I'm mid 20s) are just Arcane Explosion spam, cycling frost novas, and throwing in Holy Nova for a bit of extra DPS/healing when needed (on a secondary action bar) With my Warlocks, I specced the priest Discipline, and it seems to be working out well so bar, (also mid 20s) My main team is 5 Shaman, whom I parked at 37 to get rested exp so I can get to 40 asap, while farming Scarlet Monastery a billion times to get all the scarlet chain gear, and 5 ravagers lol.

I did put the priests on separate accounts, so I could swap things around if needed, and do 2 priests 3x mages/locks, or swap a mage and a lock so each team gets portals and soulstones. Having the priest soulstoned has saved a lot of time on the Warlock team from many corpse runs, and I miss that on the mage team.

On my mages I Farmed SFK on saturday for hours, and got all 5 toons their Feline Mantle, Robe of Arugal, (I call him arugula) and the Belt of Arugal. I much prefer SFK over BFD, due to all the skinnable mobs, less casters, and no mobs that run away. I might go back there and farm another level or two, but will probably end up going to Gnomer before starting up Scarlet Monastery.

PvP wise, haven't done much yet, as I'm still too low, but I've oneshot everyone near my level, and killed a few above my level handily, so I'm looking forward for some Southshore vs Tarren Mill action in the future.

Ok that definitely sounds like what I'm doing except more! lol priest is on a separate account as well. Unfortunately I'm alliance, so no shaman fun.. Out of all of those groups, which seems to have the best clearspeed in dungeons? Honestly I was tracking my xp/h and mage barely had more when grinding heavily packed mob areas that respawn fast as my locks/rogue could clear at just the same speed due to less downtime but also took a bit more work. I finally cleared DM at level 21 on all chars solo, before I'd get to VC and get stuck. The rogue/3locks/priest actually seems to be working out well in that regard. My mages surprisingly were doing a little better in DM at first, but this due to lack of pets, and how others mentioned.. torment spamming out of mana before boss gets killed

[Apatheist]

When doing 4x caster and a healer: how do you prefer to drive? From the healer PoV or from one of the casters?

Over the years I've made a deliberate effort not to think this way. The character I control from depends on the encounter mechanics.

Some encounters have a lot of cleave mechanics that require careful tank positioning so I'll control from the tank. Some fights drop stuff on the ground a lot so it helps, particularly with melee teams, to drive from the healer so you can pull your team back quickly. In PvP I swap to whichever character is being focused so I can kite and peel with the rest of my team.

I feel like getting too comfortable controlling your team from a single character reduces your overall effectiveness.

[daviddoran]

The Mages definitely clear faster once they are a level or two above that of the mobs they are taking out. AoE killing large packs is very efficient, if you can do it before you die and/or run out of mana. I actually AoE farmed RFC until level 18/19 just cause I knew it would be faster than jumping into Wailing Caverns right away, even with the first few mobs being grey. I really hate WC, so I only run it one or two times to get all the quests done, then I jump into SFK. With the mages, I Don't worry so much about runners, as frost nova/Arcane Explosion makes quick work of them.

Gear really helps. With all the RFC farming I did, I ended up with a decent amount of BoE green stam/int cloth gear that replaced the random gray items I had previously. And the quest staff from RFC and WC is really good for the level. Not sure if there is an equivalent DM quest, as I play Horde.

I use Titan Panel, and it auto tracks the exp/hour and you can manually reset it, so you can keep one toon for the whole session, and reset on another to get the exp/hour of a particular instance run.

[vincenntxue]

That's certainly one thing I do like about mages, but I'm also worried I wouldn't effectively be able to do the blizzard clearing, plus it didn't seem like the speed was too far ahead. I did aoe like 5 elites with my 4 mage/priest but I also struggled with bosses ultimately. Did you have a chance to do SM? Dungeons like that and on is where I'm worried my 4 locks or 4 mages may not be able to carry themselves with the priest and a tank would be needed.

[nodoze]

That's certainly one thing I do like about mages, but I'm also worried I wouldn't effectively be able to do the blizzard clearing, plus it didn't seem like the speed was too far ahead. I did aoe like 5 elites with my 4 mage/priest but I also struggled with bosses ultimately. Did you have a chance to do SM? Dungeons like that and on is where I'm worried my 4 locks or 4 mages may not be able to carry themselves with the priest and a tank would be needed.

Can't Warlocks AoE essentially as well as Mages and be more survivable while doing it?

A Mage who can blink/freeze/kite is great and all but most boxers can't realistically leverage that kind of play.

If you want to mitigate risk and/or have your cake and eat it also maybe try the following:

3Warlock+Priest+Paladin (with going in position as both as healers/buffers/cleansers).

3 characters AoEing and not losing any DPS due to push-back are closer to 4 AoEs with pushback than 75% (plus the Paladin can Consecrate if you want)...

Start Paladin as a Healer with better threat management and ret aura for pets when pet tanking & concentration aura when Warlocks AoE for no pushback... If you hit any content where pets can't tank and/or the Warlocks can't survive then upon spirit rezign switch the Paladin to his Tank gear and all problems are solved as you are now in the standard Trinity the game was designed around:

Tank+Healer+3DPS
Paladin+Priest+3Warlocks (or 2 Warlocks+Mage)

Note that swapping a Mage for one Warlock still gives you 2 Pet Tanks or an off-tank & a buff...

[daviddoran]

My mages are still in the 20s, so I haven't tried SM yet.

For Boss fights that can't be kited with frost nova, or are immune to slow, I find that just spreading out and zerging, helps a lot. Aggro bounces around easily enough, so more often than not, a single mage doesn't take too many hits in a row, provided they last through a hit or two without being oneshot.

I sometimes just skip bosses, especially if I don't need their loot, or for quests. If I end up hitting a brick wall at high level, My plan is to level up a team of 4 warriors, and yet another priest, and sub in one warrior as a tank for each team that needs one. Plus, the idea of running 4 warriors and a shaman in end game content is appealing.

[Madsage]

I have been testing out mages and warlocks before deciding to level them on Classic server and my conclusion is that warlocks are the best choice if you want to do PvP and PvE content.

Destro warlocks one shot everyone every 15 seconds, 4 Immolate+Conflags will kill casters from 36y range and for more tanky players you will have to follow up with Searing Pain or Shadowburn (24y range), mages have to spec into Presence of Mind to one shot people from distance (3min cooldown) or get close to them and blast them with instant casts (Fireblast+CoC+Blast Wave)

Since follow is broken in BGs you cant coordinate mages so well, but you can spam instant casts on warlocks.

As far as DPS in dungeons goes, Warlocks can do more damage on small and medium sized pulls since you can cast CoA+Corruption on mobs while your pets or your tank get initial aggro and follow up with Hellfire resulting in 300 aoe DPS per warlocks, which melts high level elites with 8.5k HP in about 8 seconds.
Mages are better at blizzard kiting huge packs but that is irrelevant for multiboxers and high level dungeons

[Peregrine]

In matter of this choice, I've contemplated alot what to pick (glad level xp).

Thing is, alot of people don't count GCD into account since this is major factor of your actions in terms of pvp. I think mages have the higest GCD value of all classes (damage wise). The arcane/fire specc offers so much one shot potential with:
ignite
stun
fireblast low cd
10% more mana
pyro blast
instant pyro
arcane power
silence

I am level 50 on my warlocks (4x lock/disc) and I can kill lv 60 without any problem in 4-6 sec even without optimal dot specc and no spell power almost.
Thing is, I am concerned of groups and to react super fast, which on other hand with mages is not problem beacuse if groups try to engage they will face massive dmg with arcane power arcane explosion.
Also, do note that ZG ttrinkets give arcane power to really one shot shit beyond comprehesion.

Also, mages get port and food and bit faster leveling. However, the gear requirement is insane for mages and they only got arcane missles and cast time for 36 yards. How would that faire in large scale battle is byond me. Since no block on arcane, they don't have any def utilites. The 4x fireblast with ignite could prolly kill people abit but still.


Warlocks , on other hands with 4x death coil can coil once and dot and person will die in 99% cases. Also, the warlocks get roughly 3k hp over mages and their gear is way way more suitable for pvp and easier to get. Plus, there is no mana limit due to life tap.

I've did math and got nearly 400 sp in p1, with 860 in p6 with bis gear (non consumables, with consumables I ended with 1100 sp which is TBC value!!!)

Since I am Horde, shamans pose no counter (they woudn't even if i was human, due to pet totem stomp macro.)

Curse of tongues can make some really good stuff.

Post your opinions more, I am really looking forward to hear more opinions.

[Apatheist]

for pvp i dont think it's even close. I think Xzin found the best combo in MMMMP. Four 3minute mages with so many insta casts, cc, iceblock and mobility. Yikes. You can literally delete someone every 45 seconds. Warlock dots are just so underpowered at this stage of the game.

My experience is the complete opposite. Mages are much more reliant on spell power than warlocks. Warlocks can literally PvP naked and still do well. Not to mention having 4 soulstones for your healer is beyond OP.

In fact, there's a pretty entertaining video of some random doing just that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJkaD3pmAs4&t=305s

Thing is, I am concerned of groups and to react super fast, which on other hand with mages is not problem beacuse if groups try to engage they will face massive dmg with arcane power arcane explosion.

This is true to an extent but how often is that situation going to occur? 90% Of the time if you find yourself in a large scale fight with 20+ on each side you're going to be much more effective sitting back, DoTing everything in range with warlocks than trying to suicide dive in order to use arcane explosion.