Grinder

[Tool of Society]

Been using web drones on the DDD for some time as dps drones are awful. They work as a group about as well as a t2 web which is why I try to use them to pre-web or to help web for the nightmare. Eysturs really hate them in OTAs though so that's where I will lose one sometimes.

When I get better at controlling this setup I might switch the nightmare to web drones too.

[neic112]

Hey guys I just need to know what kind of fleet layout I should have before I start skilling. I don't really care about the price of the fleet and I'm not quite sure why ToS is so keen on running as cheap as possible. Do ganks actually happen?

Anyway I've been thinking loki, 2 nightmares since I already have two alts skilled for them, 3 dominix, 2 nestor.

I've never ran incursions in my life so I don't care about maximum efficiency like most of the discussion here, but I need to do something to get the ball rolling.

Input plz guise I NEED YOU

[bugme143]

Ganks do happen.
Use NMs / gun boats if you can multitask and micro easily.

Domi or Rattler fleet for super lazy mode (Rattlers + Loki + Nestors or Basis)

I'd suggest flying a bit with any VG fleet to get a hang of the spawns and/or the incoming DPS.

[Tool of Society]

Ganks do happen.
Use NMs / gun boats if you can multitask and micro easily.

Domi or Rattler fleet for super lazy mode (Rattlers + Loki + Nestors or Basis)

I'd suggest flying a bit with any VG fleet to get a hang of the spawns and/or the incoming DPS.

^This^


As for ship prices. You will have to move your fleet fairly often at times. Keeping it cheap means it's easier for you to move those ships to a new spawn. You will get occasional gank attempts when running but your biggest threat is just moving.

I've had pretty good luck with running tachmares with two nestors. There's a ton of clicking and moving involved which gets annoying/unhealthy over extended period of times. Also just like with the drone fleet the second nestor isn't technically needed most of the time. I just use the second nestor to pre-rep so I can focus more on applying dps.

[neic112]

Yeah I've heard you say there's a lot of control involved with nightmares, that's why I thought about mixing them with some domis.

But if I did want to have a rattlesnake, nestor, loki fleet, how much of each would I need? I'm thinking two nestors just to be on the safe and optimal side, yeah? And then 6-8 rattlesnakes.

[bugme143]

2 Nestors for safe-mode (means you can cut down on total remote armor per cycle, means better cap time)
1 Loki or Huginn (poke AayJay Crendraven in-game for a fit)
7-8 Rattlesnakes. 7 gives you the ability to stuff everyone in a single squad. 8x for lulz. Poke AJ for a fit.

1x OGB. I used an Astarte myself but others might have better suggestions.

[iThirdAge Solette]

why the rattlesnakes tough? domis have better dps application due to the insane bonus they get...
i never personally tried the rattles, just wondering why you guys say its better

and since you are discussing prices, a fitted domi is something like 1/2 of a fitted rattle

[bugme143]

Probably shouldnt've said "better", you're right.

I chose rattlers for the extra midslots and drone damage bonus over the Domis. It's been a while since i actually looked at the fittings post nerf so I'm probably off. I'll look at my pyfa as soon as i get coffee into me.

[bugme143]

Thanks Kin for reminding me to update this.

Rattler I used to test:

[Rattlesnake, VG Fleet]

Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II


Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script


Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]


Large Anti-Thermic Pump I
Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I




Garde II x2

84.4k EHP, 648 DPS, Gardes 33.1km + 62.5km, 0.0645 tracking. 393m ISK.

Dominix I used to test:

[Dominix, Box]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II


Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Optimal Range Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script


Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
Drone Link Augmentor I
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]


Large Anti-EM Pump I
Large Anti-Thermic Pump I
Large Trimark Armor Pump I




Garde II x5
Bouncer II x5

62.2k EHP, 685 DPS, Gardes 43.7km + 57.6km, 0.0757 tracking. 241m ISK.


TL;DR: Domi > Rattler for Loki VG fleet doctrine (1-2 logi, 1 Loki/Huginn, X sentry dps)

Dunno why I thought Rattler was better. Basically, the Domi's 37.5% hull bonus to optimal and tracking out-weighs the Rattler's extra midslot.
At Level 5, the Domi has a 50% bonus drone damage, while the Rattler has a flat 275% bonus to 2 Sentries, which somehow equals out on PYFA, though for reasons my Smirnoff-ridden brain cannot fathom right now. If you can squeeze a 4th DDA out on the Rattler, they both have the same DPS.

Domi has 15 larger sig, 65 lower cargo, 0.1 faster align time, stronger capacitor capacity / regen.
Domi can carry 3 sets of Sentries, Rattler can carry 3.5 sets. Domi also has mildly better Kinetic armor resist at a cost of a mildly lower Thermic armor resist.
Domi's also more gank-proof, both in terms of ISK, and in terms of pirate calculations.

Kin would also like me to say that you don't need 3x opti for most sites.

[bugme143]

Since I am extremely bored, I did Guardian vs Nestor, cheapo version.

[Guardian, Guardian]


Corpii A-Type Adaptive Nano Plating
Coreli A-Type EM Plating
Corpii A-Type Thermic Plating
1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II


ECCM - Radar II
ECCM - Radar II


Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter


Medium Ancillary Current Router II
Medium Ancillary Current Router II

55k EHP, 426.5 hp/s, 272m ISK.


[Nestor, Nestor]


Capacitor Power Relay II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II


Sensor Booster II
ECCM - Magnetometric II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II


Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II
Large Remote Armor Repairer II


Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I

121k EHP, 1024 hp/s, 1.046b isk


Implants used in both fits:

Genolution Core Augmentation CA-1 - 160m
Genolution Core Augmentation CA-2 - 147m
Inherent Implants 'Squire' Power Grid Management EG-605 - 120m isk

If you don't want to use these, swap the T2 reppers for Meta 4 in the Guardian fit.
I used T1 LRRA rigs on the Nestor because T2 are 146m each.

Now for the comparison:
Guardian is cheap as balls, fit can be reproduced 3 times with some spare change for the cost of the Nestor. Small sig plus high means it takes less of a beating.
The Nestor has 80k more EHP, can field a set of heavies or sentries, and doesn't require specialized implants or skills.

You can solo Nestor, but it requires either a really good fleet comp, a ton of ISK, or a penchant for gray hairs.
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Or for CCP to listen to logic and reason.