oFollow Discussion

[MiRai]

I'm really surprised you're letting this stay on the site. This is *exactly* how bot programs handle moving around in game except instead of running a pre-determined route it is getting the information from an addon.

Those two don't really sound the same -- Pre-determined versus not pre-determined.

You don't even allow people to *name* botting software on this website

1) Botting is against the TOS of any MMO.
2) We don't want dual-boxing.com showing up in search engines associated with bot programs.
3) There's no reason to mention bot programs by name because... well, see #1.

but you'll allow people to market a program

If what's already been posted in this thread is aimed at marketing said software, then someone needs to fire the marketing team.

interfacing with the game in unintended ways to circumvent a feature that that was intentionally removed from the game.

Maybe we should also start deleting threads that mention the use of IWT with mounts because this also circumvents the same feature that was intentionally removed from certain aspects of the game. Unless, of course, you can get a public response from a blue stating that this is okay and acceptable use of game mechanics.

The same could be said about oQueue. Blizzard broke its functionality back in 5.1 and publicly released a statement about why such add-ons are not allowed. However, a workaround was eventually released and the add-on is still being hosted on an official site.

/appalled

Really? You're appalled that d-b, a site aimed at multiboxing video games, would attempt to have an educated discussion about a tool which was just released and is designed for multiboxers?

Fact of the matter is... There's a new program named oFollow which is less than 24 hours old and was just released to the public. oFollow was created by Keyclone (author of another software for multiboxing with the same name) and is marketed as a tool that will allow you to use the /follow command (or similar function) in areas where /follow doesn't currently work.

If anything, this thread should stay open and active because if oFollow is truly deemed to be against the TOS, then this thread will help educate those who are tempted to use it.

[Mosg2]

Those two don't really sound the same -- Pre-determined versus not pre-determined.

Botting programs have pre-determined waypoints that they run through and then cause your character to move through them like wickets. This program does the same thing except it dynamically generates the waypoints. Pre-determined is not the crux of the issue--it's having a program that automatically moves you through wickets. You're being disingenuous.

1) Botting is against the TOS of any MMO.
2) We don't want dual-boxing.com showing up in search engines associated with bot programs.
3) There's no reason to mention bot programs by name because... well, see #1.

My point is that given how strict the site is about botting the mods would set the bar a little higher.

Maybe we should also start deleting threads that mention the use of IWT with mounts because this also circumvents the same feature that was intentionally removed from certain aspects of the game. Unless, of course, you can get a public response from a blue stating that this is okay and acceptable use of game mechanics.

Actually, I think you should. Heyaz was given a 72 hour suspension on all ten of his accounts for doing this in BGs and the GM stated in no uncertain terms that it was a violation of the ToS.

The same could be said about oQueue. Blizzard broke its functionality back in 5.1 and publicly released a statement about why such add-ons are not allowed. However, a workaround was eventually released and the add-on is still being hosted on an official site.

So, you're saying that despite Blizzard explicitly stating that they removed the functionality intentionally and disapprove of its use... it's still ok to do it? We should support it? Also, Curse is not an official website.

Really? You're appalled that d-b, a site aimed at multiboxing video games, would attempt to have an educated discussion about a tool which was just released and is designed for multiboxers?

Fact of the matter is... There's a new program named oFollow which is less than 24 hours old and was just released to the public. oFollow was created by Keyclone (author of another software for multiboxing with the same name) and is marketed as a tool that will allow you to use the /follow command (or similar function) in areas where /follow doesn't currently work.

If anything, this thread should stay open and active because if oFollow is truly deemed to be against the TOS, then this thread will help educate those who are tempted to use it.

This program obviously violates the ToS. It's not even close. It automates behavior, let alone behavior that was intentionally and willfully removed from the game. We shouldn't be discussing it on this web-site. oFollow further strengthens the "Multiboxing=botting" thought process, one which could eventually lead to multi-boxing itself being outside the ToS. I feel strongly that we should be conservative on this topic.

[Owltoid]

Mosg2 - do you know that's what oFollow does? Otherwise are you suggesting banning discussion on any product that may have unknown tech to produce something?

Regarding the ban for IWT, you'll notice there is quite a bit of discussion regarding some saying you should avoid the behavior and some saying that it may be ok in a limited fashion. Are you suggesting banning discussion once one boxer has received a suspension for some behavior? We all know they errantly throw out bans lately.

oFollow seems fishy to me, but as MiRai said it's so new that you can't throw the baby out with the water. I'd say give it some time for peeps to have actual complaints instead of pure hearsay.

[Mosg2]

@Owltoid:
What I'm saying is that once Blizzard makes it clear that a particular behavior is not ok that we then do not support it on the website. Heyaz petitioned his 72 hour suspension and got an email back with zero sympathy. That doesn't seem like it's a gray area to me.

You admit yourself that oFollow seems fishy--It's because you know underneath your desire to have /follow back in BGs that this type of program flagrantly violates the ToS.

[Alge]

This program obviously violates the ToS. It's not even close. It automates behavior, let alone behavior that was intentionally and willfully removed from the game. We shouldn't be discussing it on this web-site. oFollow further strengthens the "Multiboxing=botting" thought process, one which could eventually lead to multi-boxing itself being outside the ToS. I feel strongly that we should be conservative on this topic.

This sums up my feelings on the matter as well. The author of the product in question makes a "use at your own risk" disclaimer. That is enough to damn it in my eyes.

[Owltoid]

You admit yourself that oFollow seems fishy--It's because you know underneath your desire to have /follow back in BGs that this type of program flagrantly violates the ToS.

I've been successfully doing BGs without follow for a couple of weeks now and I have no desire to use oFollow, legit or otherwise. I just don't want to call a product bad before there is any proof. Tiny has been a great developer for the multiboxing community and think he deserves some latitude to at least wait until someone can actually comment on the program.

[smalltanker]

I don't know the marketing phrases or how it works as I have yet to get into a BG due to leveling as real life issues. Not marketing anything, meerly discussing with like minded enthusiasts that share the same hobby. This tool/application/program (we will settle on a buzzword phrase later I am sure (hopefully not Bot program)) I thought was originally an addon as that is where I downloaded and saved it to the wow-interface folder. Seems it is a stand alone paid product much like Keyclone, ISBoxer and PWNBoxer in that regard. I am still driving a toon and issueing commands and then turning off commands much like follow and IWT break from time to time in the game world with the spinning characters orbiting a target or running off willy nilly or need to be broken as we position our toons for an incounter (can't have that healer standing right behind the tank on a boss/rarespawn fight now can we.

As Owltoid has depicted in his stream and other venues boxing is capable but at a reduced capacity for teams using IWT, straff, forward and backward movement.

And yes the "Use at your own risk" is a good disclamer, much like you find on Over the counter medicine, after market car parts, and other products. Is it a catch all so a coder potentially doesn't have to refund money if a play style becomes non-supported? If last month taught us anything it is something breaks and the community wants it subscription money back 3-5 days later. I do not want to condone exploiting but I am basically planning on exploiting my Glyph of the Stag to get around a BG... I know I will be middle fighting in AV, AB, IOC as I can't go inside if my team is all jacked up due to losing some small utility. Once I get my gear I will probably just be using 5s in arena anyway plus solo-queueing for RBGs with the rest of my team to cap out.

I do appreciate the discussion and the emotions. Not here to advertise, but to discuss. MiRai has been doing a good job of keeping us focused and end of the day each boxer uses their own set up, their own gaming software (ISBoxer, PWNBoxer, Keyclone, etc...), own Mods (JAMBA, etc...) and own skill. And even then we have been getting banned for using our work arounds. I don't want anyone to lose their ability to play so if each and everyone thinks there is a valid grey area that this is closer to botting or an automated game play then pay attention to that "use at your own risk" disclamer and stick with what you are comfortable with. I do know that my toon doesn't go anywhere unless I am actively at my keyboard pushing a key (I don't have auto-run enabled on my current mouse (unlike my old World of Warcraft mouse (Maybe that was automated game play with 3rd party software too...))) and I don't use a logitech programmable keyboard. Each of my key presses is my own and sometimes (okay aalot of the time) I have to manually herd my five cats/spirit wolves in the PVE world even with /follow active.

So continue to discuss and do what you are comfortable with. I hope to be 90 soon and back in arena's before 5.3 if I can get my weapon, trinkets and non-crafted gear.

[MiRai]

Those two don't really sound the same -- Pre-determined versus not pre-determined.

Botting programs have pre-determined waypoints that they run through and then cause your character to move through them like wickets. This program does the same thing except it dynamically generates the waypoints. Pre-determined is not the crux of the issue--it's having a program that automatically moves you through wickets. You're being disingenuous.

The problem is that you're making a baseless claim (my sentence is their example of usage!) and just throwing around words as if they're facts. You make it sound as if you've been using the program for awhile now and know exactly how it works. Have you used it? Do you own a licensed copy?

If so, then I will acknowledge your claims; but if not, then please stop making things up.

1) Botting is against the TOS of any MMO.
2) We don't want dual-boxing.com showing up in search engines associated with bot programs.
3) There's no reason to mention bot programs by name because... well, see #1.

My point is that given how strict the site is about botting the mods would set the bar a little higher.

How high would you like the bar to be set?

It sounds like you're asking for this thread to be deleted and for all future threads to be immediately locked or deleted because the content within them might fall under the 'fishy' category.

Where does one draw the line?

When talk about botting gets censored around here, it's most likely because it was used in a similar context to one of the following examples:
"My friend uses <insert name of bot> and says he's never been banned."
"I used to use <insert name of bot> back in the day, but blah blah blah..."
"If you check the <insert name of bot> forums you'll see that there was a recent ban wave."

As for bots... There is no discussion to be had about bots -- They're against the TOS of every single game. At this point in time it's unknown how oFollow operates, although you seem to be extremely adamant that it is a bot, regardless of the fact that you have never actually used the program.

Maybe we should also start deleting threads that mention the use of IWT with mounts because this also circumvents the same feature that was intentionally removed from certain aspects of the game. Unless, of course, you can get a public response from a blue stating that this is okay and acceptable use of game mechanics.

Actually, I think you should. Heyaz was given a 72 hour suspension on all ten of his accounts for doing this in BGs and the GM stated in no uncertain terms that it was a violation of the ToS.

Incorrect. He received a suspension for using IWT with both the mount vendors and the Ethereal Soul Trader pet. No one, as of yet, has received a suspension for using IWT with mounts while in a battleground.

Also, the thread I linked stays open and available to the public regardless of the fact that it lists possible ways to exploit and circumvent /follow in battlegrounds. That thread, like this one, is informative to the community.

The same could be said about oQueue. Blizzard broke its functionality back in 5.1 and publicly released a statement about why such add-ons are not allowed. However, a workaround was eventually released and the add-on is still being hosted on an official site.

So, you're saying that despite Blizzard explicitly stating that they removed the functionality intentionally and disapprove of its use... it's still ok to do it? We should support it? Also, Curse is not an official website.

I never said it was an official Blizzard site, but Curse abides by Blizzard's TOS. Is Curse in the wrong for hosting oQueue? If you believe so, feel free to submit your feedback to them, but oQueue gets installed into your AddOns folder and runs off of legitimate Lua code approved by Blizzard -- No external programs.

Really? You're appalled that d-b, a site aimed at multiboxing video games, would attempt to have an educated discussion about a tool which was just released and is designed for multiboxers?

Fact of the matter is... There's a new program named oFollow which is less than 24 hours old and was just released to the public. oFollow was created by Keyclone (author of another software for multiboxing with the same name) and is marketed as a tool that will allow you to use the /follow command (or similar function) in areas where /follow doesn't currently work.

If anything, this thread should stay open and active because if oFollow is truly deemed to be against the TOS, then this thread will help educate those who are tempted to use it.

This program obviously violates the ToS. It's not even close. It automates behavior, let alone behavior that was intentionally and willfully removed from the game. We shouldn't be discussing it on this web-site. oFollow further strengthens the "Multiboxing=botting" thought process, one which could eventually lead to multi-boxing itself being outside the ToS. I feel strongly that we should be conservative on this topic.

Again, you're just tossing out words as if they're facts and you've never even used the program. If people weren't being conservative about this topic then there would be members chiming in about how they've already purchased the program and how legitimately legit it is.

However, I see the complete opposite happening in this thread -- No one seems interested enough to want to purchase it and try it out.

What I don't understand is that you're attacking this site and its moderation, rules, and the way it operates. You're saying that because this particular thread exists, our overall integrity as multiboxers is currently at stake and it should be immediately removed, when the only justification you have for any of these claims is that you can't explain how the program itself works, so it must be a bot, and therefore, must be immediately censored on this site. It would be appalling to think that this site would immediately and completely censor a multiboxing-related program without even knowing how it works.

It's great that you feel so strongly about protecting the members of this community from things that may endanger their accounts, but no one who has posted in this thread, not even yourself, knows how this tool truly operates. So far, everyone is in agreement that it is "fishy", but this is a discussion board where we can discuss these things. People use this site to discuss all kinds of multiboxing-related material, and right now, oFollow is currently being discussed in this thread and on this site until further notice.

With all of this being said, it should be clear from my prior posts that I'm not defending the use of oFollow as a program, I'm defending the ability to hold an open discussion on this site without expecting the mods to swoop in and lock it for absolutely no reason; because at this point, there's no reason to stop the discussion of oFollow.

[ebony]

I wish rob would come back and give us some more info on this, But what it looks like it does is center the mouse on that window and uses click to move. To be fair if it does not might be a good way to box bg's

To be fair i would wait out for a few more months.

[Shodokan]

Judging from the way it is described it does indeed "seem" to be a "automation" of click to move of sorts due to the scale tweaking that needs to be done.

I'll stay away for a bit, but maybe it will be deemed legit, dunno.