WCRadio - Octale & Hordak vs the World - Antiboxer email

[Nepida]

I think what you guys are forgetting is how easy the game is when not multiboxing. While we have an objective view of both single an multiboxing, other people just have no clue. I remember before I started really researching, and specifically testing things out, I had a lot of incorrect assumptions about boxing. Things I can do in my sleep now seemed impossible (5 mans) and things that seemed easy are much more difficult for me (bgs). (*not elitist, just going on my own experience pre-post multiboxing)

[Vyndree]

Sent off this e-mail a few hours ago: http://vboxing.net/blog/webs.php/200...ordak-of-wcrad

(formatting is better on the blog page, and includes links)

Happy Monday,

It's come to my attention that the subject of multiboxing has come up a couple of times on your show, and shortly thereafter a post on the wcradio forums.
Radio Show #1: http://wcradio.com/archives.php?sele...783&autoplay=1
Forum Post: http://wcradio.com/forum/index.php?topic=3181.0
Radio Show #2: http://wcradio.com/archives.php?sele...791&autoplay=1
I disagree with a few of the points made in these shows/posts, so I'm here to offer you an alternate perspective. I feel that many of the opinions generated during your show may have been made out of misinformation or lack of information.

My name is Jennifer. I'm a 22 year old software engineer at Microsoft (yes, the evil empire), female gamer (they EXIST?!), and owner/administrator of VBoxing.net. I currently multibox a combination of 5 from my 7 level 70's: 4 elemental shaman, 1 resto shaman, 1 protection paladin, and 1 holy priest. I'm also in the midst of leveling 5 warlocks (level 45), and 5 hunters (~ level 20). Yes, I am an altaholic.

I was also "the girlfriend" as mentioned in WoWInsider's report on the 2 multiboxers running Karazhan (quote from radio show #2: "If you're multiboxing, I can't imagine that you're raiding"), and the original poster who illicited this forum post from GM Belfaire on the official forums.

Now, on to the interesting stuff.

First of all, multiboxing does not make efficient money off of account sale, regardless of the fact that account sale is against the terms of use. It's just doesn't make sense. If you can afford the computer setup and account set up and subscription fees, then you really don't need the miniscule amount of "profit" you would earn. It's just a complete waste of time to work for half of the federal minimum wage. Not to mention against the game rules -- and who WANTS to get banned?


Secondly, in response to the radio show #2 comment, "I don't know why you would want to multibox anyway". WoW is not rocket science. Granted, certain aspects of WoW are challenging, but after you've seen all of the content there's really not much to do. I'll quote a little bit from my FAQ:
"From what I've come across, the majoriy of multiboxers don't see much of a challenge in the solo game, or even the raid game for that matter. WoW isn't exactly rocket science. In order to spark a little interest in the game again, they put challenges in front of themselves to make gameplay more interesting. It's not just multiboxers who do this. Like the naked troll project, or Noor the pacifist.

Anyway, back on topic. Multiboxers can use their characters for all sorts of things -- from making their lives easier by leveling with their own dedicated healer, to running 5-man instances by themselves, to PvPing in battlegrounds and arenas."


Playing a healer, dps, and tank is certainly possible. I've been doing it since Stockades, and my first WoW video was my 5-box run through RFK (4 shaman, 1 warrior). The reason why most multiboxers choose to minimize the number of classes/specs in their group setup is certainly in-line with what was said on your radio show. It is much easier to manage identical cooldowns and abilities rather than trying to synchronize multiple cast times, cooldowns, and abilities.

Most successful PvP teams stick to 1 or 2 classes/specs. However, there are PvE groups that are also very versatile in heroics and instances. Because PvE is scripted, you have time to set up various /focus macros and positioning prior to a pull and per each encounter -- however, there is still quite a bit of skill involved to recover when something goes wrong. Because PvP is less forgiving and more dynamic, it helps to cut out any distractions and stick to a singular role as you will almost never have time to prepare your macros for each individual encounter.

As for your enhancement shaman example, it's just not possible. If you didn't know, /follow breaks upon melee attacks, which means your positioning is just not going to work -- particularly in PvP. You almost never see more than 1 melee class in a multibox set up due to difficulty in /follow, the melee hitbox, and melee breaking /follow.


Finally, "social misfits". Just because you multibox does not mean you can NEVER break your group up to play with other people. Here are just a few examples of my personal experiences.
My paladin tanks Karazhan every week for my guildies.
I've run Gruul's Lair with 1/2/3 of my shaman.
I've done PvP premades with my friends/guild.
I regularly heal 5-mans with my resto shaman.
I do SSC/TK with my resto shaman.
I've sometimes pulled one shaman into an alt run of Karazhan when they're LF1M.
I've also been able to help out many of my friends' alts complete the Ring of Blood quest and Ogri'la daily attunements.
I've done Karazhan with just me and my boyfriend.
Just because you multibox doesn't mean you're alone. WoW is a social game, and multiboxing doesn't prevent you from being social. It just offers you an alternate playstyle that might work for some, might not work for others. Just because you leveled/quested/instanced/raided as a multibox group does not prevent you from splitting them up and playing with other people.


In finality, multiboxing is a playstyle choice that appeals to some people who otherwise would have been bored and/or quit. Multiboxing does not determine your social caste (I would say I'm a living example, being as far from the stereotypical WoW geek as possible). Multiboxing does not make you antisocial, or ugly, or banished to your mother's basement (in fact, it's more likely you've got a steady job in order to afford the computer setup/account costs). Multiboxing is not "ezmode" and requires quite a bit of thought not only to set up macros, but to execute them in dynamic situations such as mis-pulls, PvP, breaking CC/aggro, healing/tanking/dpsing at the same time, positioning, and reacting to multiple character's unique situations (ever had JUST ONE character get hamstrung/curse of tongues?) while in a self-limited set of controls (macros and /follow).

Hopefully that gives you a starting point to educate yourself a bit more on multiboxing and what it is before you begin commenting on misinformation. I'd be happy to do an interview and/or answer any follow up questions/comments you might have if this is a subject of interest.

Thanks for reading the wall of text. And if you didn't read it and just skimmed all the way to the bottom, shame on you.

-Jennifer
Velani / Velath / Velathi / Velarie / Velavi / Velatti / Vyndree of VBoxing.net

[Eteocles]

Eloquently put, Vyn, me likey :p I'll keep an ear out and see if he replies on a future show, or if he replies via email, be sure to post it here for us =)

[accused]

what i find funny is that u can actually powerlevel 1 character to 70 in less than 2 days.

multiboxer to hit 70? not 2 days.

if u were doing this for the sole-purpose of selling accounts, multiboxing is the most wrong way u can go.

[Octale]

To Vyndree and the Dual-Boxing.com community:

First, disclaimers and apologies. Ordinarily I wouldn't necro a month stale thread, but this thread in particular has demanded my immediate response for three reasons. First, there's an ad hominem against my person. Second, said ad hominem is an accusation against me for being a hypocrite. Third, a member of my listerbase sent me feedback, and I can't find it in our email box. This email points out that I have done this community a disservice. I won't sit back and wait until Sunday to address this (even though I am going to address this Sunday). So allow me to at least save a little face by dealing with some of the constructive points before I deal with this on Sunday.

Based on the timing of the statements on the show, I said what I said during the "cleanup" segment of the show. As some of you show vets will know, the cleanup segment is usually us reacting to emails. Now that I've heard the statements in question, I can at least try to answer for making the statement. Strangely enough, I can't. I took what was more or less a shot in the dark and missed by a mile-and-a-half. Listening to it in retrospect, I more suprised I didn't mercilessly taunt the guy who got owned by the multi-boxer and went to whine on the forums. That said, I do think the greater point was missed in all of my hyperbolizing (or ignorance, if you prefer). The point was this: It's *your* money, and if you choose to spend 75 dollars a month multi-boxing 5 chars, that is 100% your perrogative. Do I think you're a fool for doing it? Yep, and that's not going to change. Do I think there's nobility in being able to solo instances or 2-man Kara on 10 toons by multi-boxing? Nope, not one shread; that's not going to change either. If you choose to do it for the sake of doing it, by all means, do so. Ordinarily, I wouldn't jump on something like that, but for whatever reason, I did. That was wrong, and it's my intention to fix it Sunday on the show.

Vyndree, I'm quite concerned that I can't find your email in the show's inbox. We generally don't delete anything excpet facebook invites, and I've looked 5 days in either direction from 24 Mar, when you said you sent it. If you wouldn't mind, please send it to the show's email address again, so I can star it appropriately so as to not forget to deal with this. It's important to myself and Hordak that we get things right when we talk about them. Sadly, RL gets in the way of us knowing everything about everything, even about WoW. I freely admit to not giving credit where it might be due, and making some inflamatory statements toward the multi-boxing community, even though I suspect, based on my inflection and tone, it was done with some amount of tongue-in-cheek behind it. In any event, I've certainly done this community a disservice, and in one of the traditions of OnHVW that I'm most proud of, I'll call attention to it on the show, and correct it as best I can.

Regards, and Flame on!

Octale

[Eteocles]

Well-stated Octale and np on necroing it :p I don't really think it was TOO derogatory of a remark at first(and I'm one to talk about when someone voices their possibly inflammatory opinions...lol), but yea it did come off a little uninformed, mostly, and you admit that, much respect :p

I'll see if Zin can get ahold of Vyndree to re-send the email, she doesn't troll around here much anymore(that I know of, anyways) for reasons I won't go into here; will definently be listening to the sunday show to see how that goes ;p Most of us aren't really out to be "lololol look at me I can solo raid content in an mmo"(though there is at least some "nobility" as you put it, in doing so, because it's done differently; just like 3manning ony and being the world first of something from 70 to raid boss kills...and noone gives 2 shits about it a few days/weeks later in ALL of the above cases), but more that we're...trying to dispel uninformed perceptions, I suppose is the best way to put it.

Legality, time and skill are the main issues thrown at us and most of the time:
Legality: It's legal, bottom line; sure, it's 5v1, but people for some reason think the # of players behind that matters; you're gonna get ass-raped till you bleed if you try to solo 5 people, whether it's 1 person playing 5, 5 people playing 5 or even 10 people 2-manning each of 5 character(lol reverse multiboxing, multi-playering?)
Time: We spend no more and no less time on it than anyone else would, which varies from person to person; people play all day, sleep, and play more; most of us have jobs and play in our spare time, some play all day too, others rarely play at all. Boxing doesn't change that ;)
Skill: In Arenas, a 5-player 5man team will win more often than a 1player 5man team, simply because they can multitask and individually move, not be AOE fodder. The only thing boxers in arenas have going for them is focus fire which is easily broken via rogues stunlocking one and running around alot(alts don't turn on their own most of the time; stun the leader and the alts're stuck facing one way); in pve, it's like RTSes...micromanagement of mass amounts of skills in a limited amount of time. Trying to tank, dps and heal all at once over 5 screens can be intense :p Blizzard's builtin Macros and conditions help ease this strain but it's still by no means a cakewalk.

And by all means you're quite entitled to your opinions that's it's a waste of money; I don't consider 5boxing worth it yet either so I 3box, and we all play the game differnetly, even amongst boxers and non-boxers. It all boils down to we're all just players and all do things our own way to have our own fun :p

Thanks for taking the time to post man, lookin forward to the show :p I'm usually idling in the wowradio IRC as Drayth too if you wanna yell at me privately for any reason ;p

[Gallo]

Thanks for the eloquent response Octale. I don't have a problem with people that think we're fools for multiboxing, or that there is nothing "cool" about soloing instances. I only have a problem with people that think we're:
1) Selling our accounts
2) Doing something outside of the realm of Blizzards rules
3) Doing something that can't possibly be thwarted by a group of individuals

"Disagree" with it all you want, that is your opinion and your right. Calling us cheaters is the only thing we hate.

[Eteocles]

cheaters or skillless ;) Multiboxing does have inherent advantages(slightly better coordination, focus fire etc) but comes with it's own unique set of disadvantages too; it's like playing a different class from what you're used to and not easier or harder, just different :P

[Gallo]

I don't care if they call me skill-less... I just melted their face, whats that say about them? I just don't like to be called a cheater when Blizzard is all for it.

I know people that think add-ons in general is cheating. Ridiculous.

[Octale]

I'm sure if Octale (or anyone else!) posted some of his personal hobbies other than WoW I could use the "fool" stereotype as well.

$80 /m for cable TV? WTF?
$xx for alcohol? WTF?
$xx smoking? WTF?

$xx (insert hobby here). WTF?

Everyone has thier on gig. This is ours. :P

How about $149.99 US for a Hellgate: London Founder's account 8)

I hope noone thinks that I said/think multi-boxers are cheating. I don't, for the record. It's quite clear what y'all are doing is inside the ToS, EULA, and the Code of Conduct, and that's all that matters to me.

Oh, and much <3 to all those who have responded. I was rather expecting to get my head chopped off (metaphorically, at least) for coming here. It's always nice to be pleasantly suprised. ./salute