Taking the heat

[kate]

How many people have quit playing WoW because they ran into a multi-boxer?

How many multi-boxers with their multiple accounts would quit playing WoW if they couldn't box in battlegrounds?

People threaten to ragequit all the time because they got beaten in a bg or a duel or whatever, but they never do.

People *do* quit, however, when they are literally unable to play the game the way they want. Boxers who like to run battlegrounds being unable to run battlegrounds anymore would most assuredly quit.

Ergo, making boxing impossible in battlegrounds would cost Blizzard more money than not making it impossible, and Blizzard likes money, so they won't do it unless they're feeling stupid.

[Ualaa]

I don't see Blizzard implementing things to make boxing easier or harder, purely because of the impact on boxers.
Everything is done, to improve the game and keep it on top of other games.
If something is good for boxers, or conversely bad for boxers, it is an incidental quirk and not the reason for the change.

Whether the non-boxing community likes us or not, Blizzard will continue to develop their game the same, to appeal to the largest market possible.
The whole CTM/IWT is a major boon to melee teams, but was put in to allow players with disabilities to better play the game.

Blizzard's stance has basically been that multiboxers are tolerated.
They're not actively for or against boxing, but do point out to the haters that it is a perfectly legitimate method of play.



I've run just my four DK's, with someone else doing the healing because they really wanted to...
Whether its me boxing five and stomping the other side, or me boxing four with someone else healing me...
Either way, I'm sure it pisses off the other faction to the same degree.

It might be nice +faction with your server, but its not going to result in extra boxer friendly features.
Nor will playing your five as a group, and never interacting with others, result in the removal of boxing friendly features.

The sentiment of the post is nice, but whether you follow the suggestions or not, I cannot see it impacting boxer either way.

[MiRai]

How many people have quit playing WoW because they ran into a multi-boxer?

How many multi-boxers with their multiple accounts would quit playing WoW if they couldn't box in battlegrounds?

People threaten to ragequit all the time because they got beaten in a bg or a duel or whatever, but they never do.

People *do* quit, however, when they are literally unable to play the game the way they want. Boxers who like to run battlegrounds being unable to run battlegrounds anymore would most assuredly quit.

Ergo, making boxing impossible in battlegrounds would cost Blizzard more money than not making it impossible, and Blizzard likes money, so they won't do it unless they're feeling stupid.

The statement in bold has no factual evidence to back itself up. Throughout your post you are just assuming numbers. I'm not saying your numbers are wrong, because I obviously don't know what the numbers are either. But if we all just keep assuming that we're not pissing enough of the player base off, then we might wake up one day and have lost our ability to play the game how we want to play it. If we piss enough of WoW's player base off, then maybe Blizzard will implement (or not implement) features into their next MMO that will stop multiboxing indirectly.

[kate]

It has nothing to do with race and everything to do with visibility. Multiboxers aren't a "normal" thing for people to see on an everyday basis, but single players who act like jerks are. I don't normally see a cop everyday, but when I do, if the experience is pleasant, then everybody's happy. If the cop is a jackass, then I might think that all cops in that precinct are jackasses.

Think of Hunters, Death Knights, or maybe even Rogues. Three classes that seem to be a magnet for terrible players regardless of how easy the class actually is. Whenever I'm teamed up with a Hunter, Death Knight, or Rogue... they'll have to prove to me that they're not some keyboard turning window licker before I can trust them.

It's the fact that because there are so few of us in game, that when we are actually seen by the public our overall reputation is at stake. If one multiboxer leaves a sour taste in someone's mouth, that person is more likely to believe that all multiboxers are complete douchebags with too much time and money on their hands.

It's not difficult for us, as multiboxers, to act like good citizens rather than be asshats just because we can.

You seem to be under the impression that I don't understand the argument being made for good behavior. I do understand it, but I reject the premise.

Here is why:

1) There is zero burden on me to prove anything to someone else because that person has run into other people who share a trait with me who were jerks. The only person whose actions I am responsible for is me, and I simply will not accept the burden of having to prove anything because of the actions of someone else. I want to be treated as an individual, and I expect to be treated like an individual. When one deals with me, the individual, they should deal with our shared history together because that is the only fair way to deal with me because that is the only history I can be responsible for. I don't care if I remind someone of someone else - I am not that someone else, and holidng me responsible for that someone else's behavior is wrong, period.

2) The same thing is true of me: It is unfair of me to require that another person take on the burden of proving they aren't a jerk just because other people who share a trait with them may have behaved like a jerk. Just as I want to be treated as an individual, so, too, must I treat others as individuals.

3) People who make a point of letting me know that they are putting a burden on me without my consent are being jerks. Anyone who criticizes me simply because I am a multi-boxer (or a hunter, or a dk, or a rogue) and not because I, personally, have behaved poorly, is basically wearing a big flashing sign saying "I am a jerk, and probably not worth listening to." I have very little patience for trying to educate people who don't want to learn, or for discussing things if they are unwilling to change their viewpoint.

4) I agree that it is not difficult to act like a good citizen, and think that the world would be a much better place if everyone were to avoid jerk-like behavior. However, I will absolutely refuse anyone's efforts to put a burden on me to behave in any particular way in the name of the reputations of others. My reputation is *mine* not yours, and your reputation is *yours* not mine. People who cannot or will not understand and accept that are simply not important to me and I won't bother trying to change their opinions. The same goes here - there are some people who post on this forum who engage in behavior I personally find obnoxious, immature, stupid, anti-social, whatever. I don't bother engaging with those individuals, and I don't bother caring about what they say.

Edit: One thing I forgot to say - the only time I feel like it's fair for me to put an expectation on someone is when their behavior *directly* impacts me. I don't feel like other multi-boxers on servers I don't play on, who I don't interact with, who I have never met even on this site, directly affect me, and I don't feel it's likely that them acting like real jerks ever *will* affect me directly. And I don't consider having to rarely have someone insult me for being a boxer a direct impact.

[kate]

The statement in bold has no factual evidence to back itself up. Throughout your post you are just assuming numbers. I'm not saying your numbers are wrong, because I obviously don't know what the numbers are either. But if we all just keep assuming that we're not pissing enough of the player base off, then we might wake up one day and have lost our ability to play the game how we want to play it. If we piss enough of WoW's player base off, then maybe Blizzard will implement (or not implement) features into their next MMO that will stop multiboxing indirectly.

You're absolutely right that I have no evidence, and in fact, no such evidence can exist unless Blizzard were to release the numbers to the public.

However, in my experience as a human being, I often see people getting pissy and ranting about things and threatening to quit and then they do not. Also in my experience as a human being, I see people enjoying a thing and paying money for it, and, when the thing gets changed to where they do not enjoy it they stop paying money for it. Based on those factors, in my experience, it's much more likely for boxers who can't play anymore to quit than it is for angry pissy people who get stomped once in awhile to quit. Is it possible I'm wrong? Surely. Is it likely? Who can say without real numbers? But this is the way my experience in the world says things tend to go. I do not have any experiences with the opposite thing being true (people quitting in droves over one bad experience while other people stay in droves despite the thing they enjoyed being made literally impossible). It's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for me to draw, and the opposite conclusion wouldn't make sense based on my experience of the world.

You seem to be drawing the conclusion that I am advocating for people to not give a shit and be jerks or whatever. That is not true. I like it when people behave nicely and wish that everyone would. However, I do not feel that I have the right to place any kind of expectation on people to behave nicely when they have not explicitly given me cause to believe that they will give me reason to expect that. Just because someone else multi-boxes (like I do) does NOT give me the right to say "Hey, you're representing me now, so behave how I would like you to behave" because that individual has never consented to representing me. Conversely, nobody else has the right to put a burden or expectation on me to behave in a certain way because they are under the mistaken representation that by my multi-boxing I am somehow consenting to represent them.

tl:dr version: People shouldn't be jerks, the world is a better place when they aren't, but if someone who has something in common with me wants to be a jerk I'm not going to bother losing sleep over it or trying to correct them unless we have that kind of relationship.

Edit: Just as I think the world would be a better place if everyone behaved nicely, I also think the world would be a better place if people stopped trying to control other people's behavior when the relationship between those individuals contains no consent from either party to be controlled.

[zenga]

How many people have quit playing WoW because they ran into a multi-boxer?

How many multi-boxers with their multiple accounts would quit playing WoW if they couldn't box in battlegrounds?

People threaten to ragequit all the time because they got beaten in a bg or a duel or whatever, but they never do.

People *do* quit, however, when they are literally unable to play the game the way they want. Boxers who like to run battlegrounds being unable to run battlegrounds anymore would most assuredly quit..

Quite a good chunk of my friend list has quit wow lately (not for good, most are on a break). One of the recurring reasons are the state of rogues in pvp, having complete god mode, both in random bg's and arena. Quite a couple classes basically don't stand a chance versus the average rogue, no matter how good you are. And there are multiple in every random bg, and in a lot of arena teams. The same is true for the human racial, it's OP as fuck since it allows one to equip incredible pve trinkets. Both have become a real problem, due to the representation of both rogues & humans.

I have stopped queuing solo for AV, because of the vast amount of premades who game the queue limitations. Despite it being a BG I really enjoy. And I know many more do so.

Multiboxers represent only a very minor % of the playing population that its now just a 1 time annoyance to deal with.

The point I'm making: if a vast amount of the player base was to start multiboxing in pvp, and you'd meet one in every BG you join, people would definitely stop playing because of multiboxers. They / we can deal with an annoyance that doesn't happen too often, but not with something that becomes a frequent frustration/annoyance.

[Apps]

You seem to be under the impression that I don't understand the argument being made for good behavior. I do understand it, but I reject the premise.

Here is why:

1) There is zero burden on me to prove anything to someone else because that person has run into other people who share a trait with me who were jerks. The only person whose actions I am responsible for is me, and I simply will not accept the burden of having to prove anything because of the actions of someone else. I want to be treated as an individual, and I expect to be treated like an individual. When one deals with me, the individual, they should deal with our shared history together because that is the only fair way to deal with me because that is the only history I can be responsible for. I don't care if I remind someone of someone else - I am not that someone else, and holidng me responsible for that someone else's behavior is wrong, period.

2) The same thing is true of me: It is unfair of me to require that another person take on the burden of proving they aren't a jerk just because other people who share a trait with them may have behaved like a jerk. Just as I want to be treated as an individual, so, too, must I treat others as individuals.

3) People who make a point of letting me know that they are putting a burden on me without my consent are being jerks. Anyone who criticizes me simply because I am a multi-boxer (or a hunter, or a dk, or a rogue) and not because I, personally, have behaved poorly, is basically wearing a big flashing sign saying "I am a jerk, and probably not worth listening to." I have very little patience for trying to educate people who don't want to learn, or for discussing things if they are unwilling to change their viewpoint.

4) I agree that it is not difficult to act like a good citizen, and think that the world would be a much better place if everyone were to avoid jerk-like behavior. However, I will absolutely refuse anyone's efforts to put a burden on me to behave in any particular way in the name of the reputations of others. My reputation is *mine* not yours, and your reputation is *yours* not mine. People who cannot or will not understand and accept that are simply not important to me and I won't bother trying to change their opinions. The same goes here - there are some people who post on this forum who engage in behavior I personally find obnoxious, immature, stupid, anti-social, whatever. I don't bother engaging with those individuals, and I don't bother caring about what they say.

Edit: One thing I forgot to say - the only time I feel like it's fair for me to put an expectation on someone is when their behavior *directly* impacts me. I don't feel like other multi-boxers on servers I don't play on, who I don't interact with, who I have never met even on this site, directly affect me, and I don't feel it's likely that them acting like real jerks ever *will* affect me directly. And I don't consider having to rarely have someone insult me for being a boxer a direct impact.

You're absolutely right that I have no evidence, and in fact, no such evidence can exist unless Blizzard were to release the numbers to the public.

However, in my experience as a human being, I often see people getting pissy and ranting about things and threatening to quit and then they do not. Also in my experience as a human being, I see people enjoying a thing and paying money for it, and, when the thing gets changed to where they do not enjoy it they stop paying money for it. Based on those factors, in my experience, it's much more likely for boxers who can't play anymore to quit than it is for angry pissy people who get stomped once in awhile to quit. Is it possible I'm wrong? Surely. Is it likely? Who can say without real numbers? But this is the way my experience in the world says things tend to go. I do not have any experiences with the opposite thing being true (people quitting in droves over one bad experience while other people stay in droves despite the thing they enjoyed being made literally impossible). It's a perfectly reasonable conclusion for me to draw, and the opposite conclusion wouldn't make sense based on my experience of the world.

You seem to be drawing the conclusion that I am advocating for people to not give a shit and be jerks or whatever. That is not true. I like it when people behave nicely and wish that everyone would. However, I do not feel that I have the right to place any kind of expectation on people to behave nicely when they have not explicitly given me cause to believe that they will give me reason to expect that. Just because someone else multi-boxes (like I do) does NOT give me the right to say "Hey, you're representing me now, so behave how I would like you to behave" because that individual has never consented to representing me. Conversely, nobody else has the right to put a burden or expectation on me to behave in a certain way because they are under the mistaken representation that by my multi-boxing I am somehow consenting to represent them.

tl:dr version: People shouldn't be jerks, the world is a better place when they aren't, but if someone who has something in common with me wants to be a jerk I'm not going to bother losing sleep over it or trying to correct them unless we have that kind of relationship.

Edit: Just as I think the world would be a better place if everyone behaved nicely, I also think the world would be a better place if people stopped trying to control other people's behavior when the relationship between those individuals contains no consent from either party to be controlled.

I bought my very own red shirt. I always wear the red shirt.

Someone was once beaten up by a guy in a red shirt. Now that someone is wary of all red shirt people.

Clearly the abused guy has issues. And for me to say "from now on, all red shirt people should be nicer, because I don't like being profiled." well, that's just naive... NICE! (dont get me wrong... ) Still naive.

totally 100% with Kate on this one.

[kate]

I bought my very own red shirt. I always wear the red shirt.

Someone was once beaten up by a guy in a red shirt. Now that someone is wary of all red shirt people.

Clearly the abused guy has issues. And for me to say "from now on, all red shirt people should be nicer, because I don't like being profiled." well, that's just naive... NICE! (dont get me wrong... ) Still naive.

totally 100% with Kate on this one.

Just don't wear your red shirt if you go on any away missions, okay? The only stereotype that I can say I fully endorse is that red shirts on away missions have a life expectancy somewhat lower than that of a fart in a typhoon.

[jstanthr]

WoW, either some of you guys just like to argue, contradict, or just point out the flaws on other peoples statements. All the OP was saying was that occasionally when people ask for help, actually help them instead of ignoring people. (which i am bad for doing) even if u don't know what other boxers are doing to make other players "bring the hate" i've seen a few of the examples, i've seen other boxers (not mentioning names) that have /spit or somehting like that in their macro so when they kill someone all their toons spit on them, thats just ignorant, it may be seen as "cute" or "funny" to some, but after the 3rd or 4th time some1 gets killed in that manner, it gets old fast. The OP in my opinion is looking out for the long-term, which is admirable and i'll stand beside him 100%. I beleive the jst of it is that you don't have to go out of your way to make boxers look good, but just don't take the actions that make us look bad. i.e constantly campling some1 without reason, inappropriate emotes, things like that. (kinda ranty but owell) lol

[candlebox]

Thanks Jst. I am not sure how this turned into a hate bashing post?

I remember when I first met my multiboxer in AV 5 years ago, hell it was probably one of you guys. I was awestruck. We want people to have a respect like that for us. This is not accusing anyone of being a bad person. If you want to live in your own world, and think that your actions do not directly affect the population than fine.

I am not saying they will remove things, or make things hard. You walk a thin tightrope.

My original rant, is in one of my AV's a draeni went afk in a tower. Then he sat in the GY forever. How do you think that makes the team feel? I think being 10 people in a AV who just go /afk is close enough to boting to me. Hell you might as well hit the space bar every minute to look like an afk bot.

I wanted to post this to start waking people up. Hell if we came together, and showed that we support our communities, they might even implement 10 man raid queing. We take alot from the average guy that works a 8 hour shift comes hope to pvp and relax, and gets farmed in his home city, battlegrounds, TB. It starts with us. If enough people start acting right then it will be "Cool" to have multiboxers again. Not a burden off two people can't leave blacksmith.

It is in your hands in life/game to be a douche or someone people look up to. Remember this.

WE ARE A COMMUNITY. SOLO PLAY OR NOT. The day you decided that you wanted to take on the responsibility of playing multiple roles you joined the community. Like i said, I have been alt-tab playing since BC. Two years ago I picked up keyclone, and a year ago moved to IS.

NO WHERE IN THIS POST did i say to cater to the crybaby trolls. But there are a bunch of people that aren't. You don't have to be politically correct, or even "Not Play" because some QQ'ing in the forums. Just don't be a Jackass because you can.