Alliance win percentages this AV weekend

[zenga]

The only thing "Random" about random BGs is the actual BG you are going to play in. Blizzard is fine with people queueing together (and they encourage it). I don't understand why people get their panties in a bunch when someone queues as a group in a MULTIPLAYER game. Multiboxers are technically premades themselves. Why should people who are willing to put the work and effort into creating something like a 40 premade be drug down to the bottom level to the people who are to lazy to put any effort into anything?

The other random factors are your teammates and classroles. The argument that blizzard is fine with people queuing with more than 5 is bullshit. They have said that themselves and they have put in a queue limit of 5 people, on purpose. If you want to ignore that argument by saying that the api allows it to circumvent it: then the api is conflicting with what they have stated and with the limit they put in. What you are basically doing is tricking the system by mass queuing at the same millisecond. If you don't have enough people for who the BG pops, you leave the BG. That is another unintended behavior, as it has repercussions for other people in the queue and in the actual BG (they might start with 5-7 active people). Yes it's perfectly legal to leave the queue, the difference is that with the addon it's being done on a much larger scale, and you are not gonna tell me this was intended when they designed the system. It's very simple: if they wanted us to be able to queue up with 10 man, they would increase the limit. But they actually did the opposite, shrink it down from 10 to 5.

If you don't understand the impact these organized full premades have for the average player, then there is something wrong with your understanding of the game in my book. Imagine that as of tomorrow, all current players would queue up for a random dungeon with a full premade, and the same for LFR. Then the newer players (which the game really needs to stay healthy) will never experience good play nor be able to steal with their eyes. And big part of this mmo is that knowledge/experience is being transmitted from one player to another as the game progresses. The same is true for aspiring pvp'rs. If they experience the ganking from the first minute on a GY, by people who game the mechanics to increase the level of organisation a random bg should have, then what's the point for them to even queue up.

It's not the occasional premade that is wrong, it's the development of a whole community around it, i.e. the scale on which it happens. There are now everyday a couple of pugs that just queue up in AV with 40 people where the intend is max 5, with the only goal to just farm the GY, avoiding pretty much every bg objective. And if the outcome beats the intent, then something is wrong in my opinion, something that needs to be fixed.

About your argument that multiboxers are technically premades themselves: up to 5 people - as intended - there is nothing wrong with that. Nor will it have deciding impact on every bg you play. Whereas - definitely in the 40m maps where the level of organisation is much harder - with a full premade you have a guaranteed outcome. It has simply nothing to do with pvp in my opinion.

[EaTCarbS]

The other random factors are your teammates and classroles. The argument that blizzard is fine with people queuing with more than 5 is bullshit. They have said that themselves and they have put in a queue limit of 5 people, on purpose. If you want to ignore that argument by saying that the api allows it to circumvent it: then the api is conflicting with what they have stated and with the limit they put in. What you are basically doing is tricking the system by mass queuing at the same millisecond. If you don't have enough people for who the BG pops, you leave the BG. That is another unintended behavior, as it has repercussions for other people in the queue and in the actual BG (they might start with 5-7 active people). Yes it's perfectly legal to leave the queue, the difference is that with the addon it's being done on a much larger scale, and you are not gonna tell me this was intended when they designed the system. It's very simple: if they wanted us to be able to queue up with 10 man, they would increase the limit. But they actually did the opposite, shrink it down from 10 to 5.

If Blizzard was not ok with addons like Preform AV Enabler, they would have broken them long ago. There is a blue post saying that premades are a-ok, but my google skills fail me today.

If you don't understand the impact these organized full premades have for the average player, then there is something wrong with your understanding of the game in my book. Imagine that as of tomorrow, all current players would queue up for a random dungeon with a full premade, and the same for LFR. Then the newer players (which the game really needs to stay healthy) will never experience good play nor be able to steal with their eyes.And big part of this mmo is that knowledge/experience is being transmitted from one player to another as the game progresses. The same is true for aspiring pvp'rs. If they experience the ganking from the first minute on a GY, by people who game the mechanics to increase the level of organisation a random bg should have, then what's the point for them to even queue up.

Your reliance on a hypothetical is ridiculous because the situation you describe will never happen. Therefore, it is illogical to form an argument based upon it. Graveyard camping happens all the time in 10-15 mans when a 5 man group queues up (or one team happens to be terrible/undergeared). People seem to get along fine, even with all of the shenanigans of low level pvp.

It's not the occasional premade that is wrong, it's the development of a whole community around it, i.e. the scale on which it happens. There are now everyday a couple of pugs that just queue up in AV with 40 people where the intend is max 5, with the only goal to just farm the GY, avoiding pretty much every bg objective. And if the outcome beats the intent, then something is wrong in my opinion, something that needs to be fixed.

Intent is completely reliant on the players, not the developers. If all a player want to do is run around and pad kills, then they should be allowed to do so. The game wouldn't be much fun it it was "you must do x, y, and z in this order in order to experience the game." Those kind of games give you about 8 hours of gameplay, and WoW is not that kind of game. It thrives on giving players options and restricting them as little as possible.

About your argument that multiboxers are technically premades themselves: up to 5 people - as intended - there is nothing wrong with that. Nor will it have deciding impact on every bg you play.

So you're ok with premades, but you're not. I just don't understand how a multiboxer can be against premades when they ARE a premade. It just seems like a double standard to me, since you're ok with premades in one context, but not in another.

Whereas - definitely in the 40m maps where the level of organisation is much harder - with a full premade you have a guaranteed outcome. It has simply nothing to do with pvp in my opinion.

Bold text is false. Outcomes are never guaranteed, just likely to go according to plans.

[MiRai]

If Blizzard was not ok with addons like Preform AV Enabler, they would have broken them long ago. There is a blue post saying that premades are a-ok, but my google skills fail me today.

There is actually a blue post saying the opposite about the add-on assisted queueing:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3390?page=5#94

However, I'll agree with this...

Graveyard camping happens all the time in 10-15 mans when a 5 man group queues up (or one team happens to be terrible/undergeared). People seem to get along fine, even with all of the shenanigans of low level pvp.

While graveyard camping can end up being lame if you're on the receiving end... at least in AV you can actually go to another graveyard and can never truly be camped unless your team controls no graveyards and you're stuck in the starting tunnel (although I highly doubt that would ever be the situation).

[valkry]

There is actually a blue post saying the opposite about the add-on assisted queueing:
http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...3390?page=5#94

However, I'll agree with this...

While graveyard camping can end up being lame if you're on the receiving end... at least in AV you can actually go to another graveyard and can never truly be camped unless your team controls no graveyards and you're stuck in the starting tunnel (although I highly doubt that would ever be the situation).

I've camped the starting tunnel before, was awesome fun. And you can GY camp even well geared teams. The headstart you get from dpsing as soon as they res is pretty hard to overcome and a 10 man team can be held by 8, while 2 run the flag

[zenga]

If Blizzard was not ok with addons like Preform AV Enabler, they would have broken them long ago. There is a blue post saying that premades are a-ok, but my google skills fail me today.

"This is not something that we are encouraging, but it is also something that we currently have no realistic way to prevent. That being said, this is something that may change soon, which is why we always advise people to not use any type of add-on designed to circumvent or bend our balancing safeguards... using such add-ons can lead to severe account penalties!"

That's the blue post. Yet again you avoid the fact that they put in a 5 player limit to queue up together, down from 10 man. Why on earth do you think they did that? They most likely could take out the ability for a raid leader to queue up individual players, but that would only be a temp fix. Because the business logic of the queue system just happens to put people who queue up at the same second in the same BG (more or less). That is not a feature, it's a way programmed to deal with things. And any addon that uses this is basically gaming the default intent. If they would disable preform AV, another addon would pop up sooner or later with a time provided by the raid leader: 'click on 10'. That's why they say they have no realistic way to prevent it at the moment.

Graveyard camping happens all the time in 10-15 mans when a 5 man group queues up (or one team happens to be terrible/undergeared). People seem to get along fine, even with all of the shenanigans of low level pvp.

There is a difference when you play a couple of minutes, get pwnd by the other team, eventually end up the gy and can't leave him anymore, ... with a full premade team who's sole intend it is to start gy camping from the first second. With a normal pug, you don't know how well your team is geared (only the people you queue up with), how good/bad the opponent team is; and typically you have no voice com. A premade have/know these things. It's easier to deal with the fact that the opposition is better, than dealing with opposition who game the normal queue limit and gets a coordination advantage (which is basically what you do with AV preform).

And it only gets worse for the 40 man bg's.

Intent is completely reliant on the players, not the developers. If all a player want to do is run around and pad kills, then they should be allowed to do so. The game wouldn't be much fun it it was "you must do x, y, and z in this order in order to experience the game." .

The devs have most definitely an intent with the rules, objectives & features they set for a bg. Because that is what they think will provide balance, fun & a good player experience. If it turns out that the outcome is totally different from the intent, but everyone is having 'fun' cq a good experience, there is no need to change things. If it turns out the other way, then they should (and will as seen in the past) change things.

So you're ok with premades, but you're not. I just don't understand how a multiboxer can be against premades when they ARE a premade. It just seems like a double standard to me, since you're ok with premades in one context, but not in another.

Yes it's a double standard, but based on the scale it happens. I find it fun to have someone in my raid who can absolutely trash talk (with humor) someone who fucks up on a boss for 30 seconds. But if he starts to do it all raid long it gets annoying and becomes counter-productive. The scale on which it happens is important. I don't think that an occasional premade has a big influence on the general player experience, but I'm convinced that developing a whole community around premades and mass forming premades results in bad player experience.

I really enjoyed doing a 25m premade to get AV perfection, it's great to experience that level of coordination. But I changed my mind overtime as I see the outcome. The only thing I can hope for is that they allow premades to queue up vs other premades, outside of rated play (that is for the 40 man maps).