Earthquake

[zenga]

I was not arguing that it is better than acuity. ( did I ever say that?

No you didn't say that, and my reply was more intended as a general comment to what was earlier stated in the thread (might not have been clear from my quote though). You said however that EP was 'a lot', and I tried to say it's not a lot if you weight it against other talents, that it's basically a minor damage increase in pvp, as a boxer.

I keep seeing people talk about skipping the +hit talent not understanding that it is a damage increase talent ASIDE from the hit.

very true, even pve raiders are often not aware of that (but obviously none is gonna skip it since you need a lot more hit for pve).

In any build where you want to maximize DPS it is not an option to not take all 3 points in it. For PvP i can see skipping it for survivability or mobility..better healing or whatever. I just think its not the best thing to skip. More damage is always better, PvP or PvE. And more so when your talking about multiples of the same class all casting at the same time.

It's not like there are a whole lot of options that skip. Personally I always go 3/3 elemental mastery, for the simple reason that when you cast 15 lightning bolts/chain lights over a 2 minute timeframe, where you have approx 5 overloads from with 15 mastery points, the cooldown gets reduced with 1 minute on the biggest spell for ele shamans. I find that a crazy talent and would never ever skip it for pvp. But I guess each person has his or her personal preference / playstyle.

I disagree though with 'more damage is always better in pvp'. There is a breakpoint where utility makes a bigger difference to win a game than pure dps. So not taking 3 points that give a very modest damage boost (like EP) over any other utility talent (be it roots, survival, reduced mana, w/e) seems to be the better way to go in pvp.

[Nikita]

This got me interested in trying a critt based shaman team. Wouldt you get more mana back aswell if you keep critting like a donkey? Id imagine spamable CL with 35-40% critt would hurt big in arenas

[zenga]

This got me interested in trying a critt based shaman team. Wouldt you get more mana back aswell if you keep critting like a donkey? Id imagine spamable CL with 35-40% critt would hurt big in arenas

On my current pvp gear (full ruth + leg staff), while maintaining hit capped I can reforge up to 27% crit chance, without gemming (since I use int/res). So if you were to have 4 ele shamans as a boxer with each 27% crit chance, that would result in a 72% chance that 1 spell crits. (it would require 68% crit chance per toon to have 99% chance that 1 spell crits out of the 4 btw). Seeing what you lose out on mastery, and the benefits you gain from overload, crit is not worth gemming / reforging for. But crit is far from a bad stat for ele, it's just the least desirable, since the other stats offer more. Many other classes their least desired stats are much worse than what crit is for ele. But taking the 3 talent points in acuity should be a no brainer (over EP).

[ebony]

btw feedback is what removes the cooldown on chainlighting

[valkry]

Some shammy teams doesnt take feedback if they find their arena matches dont last over 2 mins. Whereas I BG so for me it is huge.

And I solved the EP vs Acuity problem, I take both. I usually only die once or twice in BGs, so I dont need huge amounts of dmg reduction, though both of them combined would be nice.

[Khatovar]

I keep seeing people talk about skipping the +hit talent not understanding that it is a damage increase talent ASIDE from the hit.

very true, even pve raiders are often not aware of that (but obviously none is gonna skip it since you need a lot more hit for pve).

Too true on this. I don't PvP, but both my Resto Shaman and Enhancement Shaman dipped into the Elemental tree for EP. It's hard to resist a talent that offers +hit and +dmg.

[MiRai]

So if you were to have 4 ele shamans as a boxer with each 27% crit chance, that would result in a 72% chance that 1 spell crits.

I just woke up so I apologize if I'm retarded but... Where do you get 72%? Can I see some math on this?

[zenga]

I just woke up so I apologize if I'm retarded but... Where do you get 72%? Can I see some math on this?

to compute the chance for 1 of several events to occur you multiply the complements (not sure if that's the proper english term)

so if toon A, B, C, D all have 27% crit chance, they all have 73% chance ito not crit (individually)

so
= (1-(!A*!B*!C*!D))*100
= (1-(0.73*0.73*0.73*0.73))*100
= (1-0.28.3)*100
= 0.72*100
= 72% chance that one of the 4 elemental shamans gets a crit when casting a spell at the same time

Another example:
Let's say a tank has a 10% chance to parry, a 20% chance to dodge and a 30% chance to resist an attack (non wow related), then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit?
(1-(0.9*0.8*0.7)°100
or 49.6% chance that he will either parry, block or dodge, and a 50.4% chance jackshit will happen

[MiRai]

to compute the chance for 1 of several events to occur you multiply the complements (not sure if that's the proper english term)

so if toon A, B, C, D all have 27% crit chance, they all have 73% chance ito not crit (individually)

so
= (1-(!A*!B*!C*!D))*100
= (1-(0.73*0.73*0.73*0.73))*100
= (1-0.28.3)*100
= 0.72*100
= 72% chance that one of the 4 elemental shamans gets a crit when casting a spell at the same time

Another example:
Let's say a tank has a 10% chance to parry, a 20% chance to dodge and a 30% chance to resist an attack (non wow related), then what is the probability that one of those occur when he gets hit?
(1-(0.9*0.8*0.7)°100
or 49.6% chance that he will either parry, block or dodge, and a 50.4% chance jackshit will happen

I'm not going to say you're wrong but, I don't like the first example versus the second. The second
example makes perfect sense because we're talking about one single character having a chance to do 3
different things. However, if you have 4 different characters and they all have 27% chance to crit... then...
that's it -- They have 27 % chance to crit. Their crit percentage cannot be added together to increase their
overall chance to crit.

This is how I have always viewed this.

[zenga]

I'm not going to say you're wrong but, I don't like the first example versus the second. The second
example makes perfect sense because we're talking about one single character having a chance to do 3
different things. However, if you have 4 different characters and they all have 27% chance to crit... then...
that's it -- They have 27 % chance to crit. Their crit percentage cannot be added together to increase their
overall chance to crit.

This is how I have always viewed this.

The question is: 'what is the chance that one of the 4 shamans his spell crits, when they all fire a spell at the same time'. Or in other words: what is the chance that one of the ele shamans doubles his damage. Of course each shaman retains his individual crit chance, but as a boxer you want also to look at the team.

You can rewrite the examplet to this:

A has 27% to do ability W when casting a spell
B has 25% to do ability X when casting a spell
C has 26% to do ability Y when casting a spell
D has 30% to do ability Z when casting a spell

If ABC & D fire off a spell at the same time, then what is the probability that one of the four abilities (WXYZ) happen?
= (1-(0.73*0.75*074*0.70))*100
= 71,7% chance that either/at least W X Y or Z happen when 4 ele shamans shoot a spell at the same time

To compute the probability, WXY & Z can be the same ability, or 4 different ones, it doesn't really matter. Nor does the exact individual % matter, it can be different individual percentages.