Anybody tried an all-cleric team?

[Smedbox]

Should be a no-brainer, really. You get 20% flat chance to block from Precept of Refuge and Safe Haven alone. Plus 30% of your spellpower as block, plus 10% non-physical damage reduction (this plus 3 points into Shaman are the only forms of non-physical damage reductions Justicars have access to).

Yeah, that's what one might think, right? That is why I was so surprised to see so many posts and web sites about 1h+shield being useless for cleric tanks. Perhaps that's old information and Justicar has changed since then...

[Gomotron]

Should be a no-brainer, really. You get 20% flat chance to block from Precept of Refuge and Safe Haven alone. Plus 30% of your spellpower as block, plus 10% non-physical damage reduction (this plus 3 points into Shaman are the only forms of non-physical damage reductions Justicars have access to).

But in the end, the analysis is not that clean.

While Spell Power increases Block, when talented it also increases Dodge and Parry. Typically, the Spell Power of 2-handers is far greater than a 1-hander and shield (huge itemization problem, IMO). By far greater, I am talking about typically DOUBLE the Spell Power from a 2-hander. Once you spec 3 points into Devout Deflection, the bonuses your get to avoidance seems to offset the loss from Block (+60% to Dodge, +90% to Parry).

I'm not sure anyone has really done a parse of this debate though. I also think that a lot of the early discussions were at a time when Devout Deflection gave a higher mitigation percentage than what is currently listed.

Personally, I notice that I suffer from a LOT of burst damage with a 2-hander so I abandoned 2-handed tanking. However, now that my curiosity is piqued, I may spec 2-handed tanking and give it a whirl to compare.

[Ughmahedhurtz]

But in the end, the analysis is not that clean.

While Spell Power increases Block, when talented it also increases Dodge and Parry. Typically, the Spell Power of 2-handers is far greater than a 1-hander and shield (huge itemization problem, IMO). By far greater, I am talking about typically DOUBLE the Spell Power from a 2-hander. Once you spec 3 points into Devout Deflection, the bonuses your get to avoidance seems to offset the loss from Block (+60% to Dodge, +90% to Parry).

I'm not sure anyone has really done a parse of this debate though. I also think that a lot of the early discussions were at a time when Devout Deflection gave a higher mitigation percentage than what is currently listed.

Personally, I notice that I suffer from a LOT of burst damage with a 2-hander so I abandoned 2-handed tanking. However, now that my curiosity is piqued, I may spec 2-handed tanking and give it a whirl to compare.

A good point. I'd go further and say that there are probably drastic differences in how the two styles scale with gear at higher levels of PVE.

[Apatheist]

But in the end, the analysis is not that clean.

While Spell Power increases Block, when talented it also increases Dodge and Parry. Typically, the Spell Power of 2-handers is far greater than a 1-hander and shield (huge itemization problem, IMO). By far greater, I am talking about typically DOUBLE the Spell Power from a 2-hander. Once you spec 3 points into Devout Deflection, the bonuses your get to avoidance seems to offset the loss from Block (+60% to Dodge, +90% to Parry).

I'm not sure anyone has really done a parse of this debate though. I also think that a lot of the early discussions were at a time when Devout Deflection gave a higher mitigation percentage than what is currently listed.

Personally, I notice that I suffer from a LOT of burst damage with a 2-hander so I abandoned 2-handed tanking. However, now that my curiosity is piqued, I may spec 2-handed tanking and give it a whirl to compare.

At T2 level, the difference is around 230-250 spellpower. Of course, the flat difference as you tier up increases, but the percentage difference in total stats is always roughly the same if all of your gear is the same level.

250 spellpower equates to somewhere around 4-5% dodge and parry.

Compare that against what you gain with shield plus 1H at a similar level.

- 15% base block rating.
- 20% additional block rating from talents
- 1000 armor
- 10% magical damage reduction
- significant mana regen
- access to better tanking enchants

Not even close to worth it. I wouldn't even trade 5% dodge and parry for the 10% magic reduction.

:P

[wyofiddler]

Another new toy for you clerics to play with.

http://rift.zam.com/en/item/B59FDA82...Eth#Dropped_By

This thing procs like crazy with reparation/salvation. The animation is funny, too. I just got my 5th one last night, it's like watching a fireworks display.

Found another item for young cleric teams:

http://rift.zam.com/en/item/8CE1A671...g-Life-Crystal

Only lvl 30 req and fairly easy to get, just bought it for all my clerics to fill in until they hit 42 and equip the blue version.

EDIT: Found a lvl 35 version too: http://rift.zam.com/en/item/F9C0C8EC...xtraplanar-Gem

And a lvl 45 version: http://rift.zam.com/en/item/8AC7C185...1/Crystal-Vine

The lvl 30 version of this greater essence will proc multiple times simultaneously on a single char - I assumed they would overwrite/extend the HoT but they don't they stack right up. This is really awesome, tons of fun! Took a screenshot to show it happening, but me, forums, and online picture hosting don't get along sry LOL

Pic of the multi-procs:

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[Gomotron]

At T2 level, the difference is around 230-250 spellpower. Of course, the flat difference as you tier up increases, but the percentage difference in total stats is always roughly the same if all of your gear is the same level.

250 spellpower equates to somewhere around 4-5% dodge and parry.

Compare that against what you gain with shield plus 1H at a similar level.

- 15% base block rating.
- 20% additional block rating from talents
- 1000 armor
- 10% magical damage reduction
- significant mana regen
- access to better tanking enchants

Not even close to worth it. I wouldn't even trade 5% dodge and parry for the 10% magic reduction.

:P

If you do the math, the damage mitigation/avoidance is almost a wash. When I calculated out some theoreticals with my 32 Justicar, really there was a 5% or less difference between the 2. Now granted, this was merely looking at physical damage.

When you take into account the armor factor as well (2% at level 32 for all physical damage taken), the overall reduction in damage is significant (although this could theoretically be offset by taking 3 points into the Shaman damage reduction talent; this assumes, however, that the Justicar wouldn't be taking the Shaman talent to begin with). Add in the magic mitigation when Precept of Refuge is up as well as the mana regeneration on blocking that would allow more AE tanking via Even Justice, and the benefits start to add up.

If there was a decent secondary tree for cleric tanks that had a lot of deep tree mitigation/absorbtion talents, it might be worth it from the standpoint of being able to go deeper into that particular tree by avoiding all of the shield-associated Justicar talents. However, even trying to spec deep into Purifier didn't seem to grant me a lot of benefit. I was hoping that an additional 16 points into a tree would afford me benefits that would make the change worthwhile but I am just not seeing it.

So, in summary, your point is well taken. It would appear that 2-handed tanking does not match up well with mace-and-board tanking, at least on paper. I'm pretty sure that this is as well confirmed IRL as well.

[Smedbox]

Woot, figured out how to embed a YouTube video in a WordPress blog post! I updated the latest posts on my BoxOfChocolate blog so the videos are embedded now.

http://boxofchocolate.smedis.com

I added a short video of my cleric team AoE farming for wool to make woolen bags for the whole team. I remember doing that on a solo rogue some months ago. Took like two days to get mats for all my characters then. With the clerics, it took like 20 min!

[Smedbox]

My clerics are now 34, doing mostly just World Event dailies and rifts - I'm farming planarite to get the 7k planar focus asap. They just got their own guild called "Legio IX" on guardian, Faeblight, and I made a little celebratory video showing off their AoE powers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfEE415m3Ww&hd=1

[wyofiddler]

Nice vid... Do you always play with the UI hidden? j/k haha

[Smedbox]

Heh, thanks. I just think the UI is unimportant for a screenshot or video, cluttering up the shot.