Looking for Advice on Cheap Video Card

[Sajuuk]

ok, um well, perhaps one of the more experienced hardware guys may step in here. But based upon your boards stats. You "can" get a 16x Pci-e Graphics card. Unfortunately, the Power Supply is at the bare minimum to be able to power it and keep it up. In addition, since your board is currently operating at its slowest piece, (RAM), you arent gonna get much better than 800MHz.

The card I linked is about what you are going to be looking at for the money limit you have. And frankly its core frequency is under the current RAM you have, even though its own RAM is over.

I dunno. If you did find a card, your performance increase may not even be noticable.

Right now, your MoBo and RAM and PWS are killin ya.

I'm going to be scathing in this quote-rebuttal, simply because while I'm sure you're not willfully spreading misinformation, but you seem to have cocked things up. It may be that I just woke up from a long nap, maybe the grilled cheese sandwiches have poisoned me, dunno. But...here goes.

...What drivel are you spouting? Firstly, under what assumption are you running that he's even close to maxing out the load on his PSU?
Let's look at his specs, and make general assumptions with power consumption.
Phenom Quad: Unsure which one it is, if it's first or second generation phenom, so I'll assume a TDP of 140W (Note my understanding of TDP is the max power it will use at stock settings, which means under full load. Cluch is running two to three clients, so while we will assume full load in our rough calculguesstimations, it will probably be more like 80% load.
Motherboard: Pheh, I don't know, let's go over the top and assume it consumes 75W under full load.
RAM: included in motherboard.
Drives: Eh, 5W each? 10W
Maths!

140W
+75W
+10W
==225W

With these rough estimates it puts us at 225W - less than 65% of the total power output of the PSU. We could throw in a video card that only draws power from the PCIe bus (75W), and have 50W leeway. That's not to say that the budget PSU won't be strained a little bit.

Now pray tell me, how is his RAM and motherboard keeping him back? They work, and everything is (I assume) on stock clocks. His RAM capacity is fine, you don't need DDR3-1600 to have it 'be good'. All that is needed is for the user to be satisfied. Far has his motherboard, he may be limited in expansion options, but that's not an issue right now. What is wanted is a boost in performance, and there are components to be changed/added that will do MUCH MORE for performance that changing a motherboard or the RAM.

RAM speed does not govern processor speed. It can influence performance, but just because you run DDR2-800 does not mean you are limiting your CPU by it. You might limit overclocking potential, but not stock potential.

As far as the power supply is concerned, yes it is a limiting factor, in terms of power available and quality of the PSU. We can work within the power requirements, but in my opinion as far as a PSU is concerned you get what you pay for - when building, don't skimp so you can get the latest and greatest CPU - if your PSU goes it could take your system with it.

Am I saying a new PSU is needed? No, but it wouldn't hurt the cause of future expansion. Plus spare PSUs are nice to have laying around if something decides to blow.

My advice would be to use your money, and get a decent board to start with. Then when you can get more cash, buy another component. Then another, and another, till you have a system that you can upgrade later.

Or, why not instead of telling him BUY NEW COMPUTER LULZ we work with what he has? Suuure, he could get an AM3/AM3+ board, but that would also most likely entail buying new ram, (DDR3, yay!) which is not a wanted expense. We're not upgrading to bulldozer. There IS an upgrade path still available. He could get a Thuban 6 core processor if he wanted to.

Very Interesting Apps.

Short of being extremely ignorant. I just figured if i upgrade the video card, I would have to see an performance improvement.

Are you saying I'm pretty much bottlenecked by the MB, RAM, & PWS? Meaning no matter what I do, I'm overall limited by them?

Also, I'm really only trying to up the FPS. Not do anything crazy.

Thank you for your help.

Don't worry, it seems Apps is either confused, or ignorant as well. I believe your MB and RAM are fine, and while the PSU could be better, we can work with it.

Upping your FPS/overall performance is doable.

What is a Phantom processor? Did you mean Phenom?

As for PCI Express x8 or x16, they mean absolutely nothing unless you're trying to break world record
benchmark numbers. The difference between the two is negligible.

WoW is CPU dependent, so if you're already at 100% processor usage I doubt a video card will make a big
difference unless your on-board GPU is sucking up a lot of CPU as well (I have no idea). Any video card you
can find for close to $100 I guess will work but I feel like it's putting a band-aid over a gaping wound. An
nVidia 430/440/450 or ATi equivalent card is pushing your power supply, though.

/fistpump. While I believe that the PSU is a limitation, it is one that can be worked with. The two components to be added changed that I think would make the most improvement is an SSD or a graphics card. That doesn't mean they are mutually exclusive. Although to get both for under 100 dollars means - buying used, or getting cheaper components.

Yes, I guess I do mean Phenom. Sorry.

I'll check on my CPU usage when they are fired up tonight.

I definitely agree and believe it's a band-aid solution, it's just all I can really do at this point in time. Trust me, I would love to be looking at more but that's just not realistic. I'm really just trying to get a few more FPS, nothing outrageous, just a few more.

It does appear a lot of what I'm looking at has a 450 Watt recommendation. How strict is that considering I have a 350?

Thank you for the response and info Fenril.

Alright, not for other things! As I said, the two components that will benefit you most are either a SSD (solid state drive), or as you want, a graphics card. A PSU would definitely not hurt.

"Why another hard drive? No, really, why?" - you ask? In terms of loading textures for your clients, load times, and such your hard drive is really the slowest part of your system, partially due to the way it's constructed. Rotating platters are cheap and good for storage, but they only rotate so fast, and your hard drive has to find all the data that is requested. A solid state drive has no moving parts, and takes less time to find data, and can be faster in delivering it. Trust me when I say you will notice the difference.

I would use the SSD suggested below for only WoW, partially to keep optimal performance, partially because you won't have much space left afterwards.

Browsing newegg, I came across a SSD for ~70 dollars: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227510
I also came across an inexpensive, lower end card somewhat like the one apps suggested, only it's a previous generation of ATI. (also with apparent mail in rebate card for 15 dollars
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16814121447
Cost of the two combined before shipping: $116.98 ~101.98 with mail in rebate.
Yes, I do know it's a little above your budget, which could be a make-or-break point. But I think this combo is a good/awesome bet for increased performance.

Far as a power supply goes, I saw this featured, I can't vouch for performance as I didn't research it. Cost is 39.99 --with a 20 dollar mail in rebate - cost of 19.99.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16817139026

If you got all of them, and did all the rebates cost would be about 122 dollars, not including shipping. I believe a solution like this will a: provide leeway for some future upgrade (SSD and PSU), b: provide the wanted performance boost (SSDs are wonderful, and while the GPU is cheap, it should do the trick) and c: get more life out of your computer.

Slighty overbudget, I know, but you could mix/match do what you wish and still come out ahead. It depends on how flexible you are in the short run (and assuming the mail in rebates are honored. We know how long those take).

[MiRai]

A whole bunch of stuff...

boop boop beep

I would use the SSD suggested below for only WoW, partially to keep optimal performance, partially because you won't have much space left afterwards.

Browsing newegg, I came across a SSD for ~70 dollars: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820227510

You cannot use that SSD it's too small for WoW. You wouldn't be able to patch and running so close to
capacitance is not good.

More stuff..

boop boop beep

[Sajuuk]

boop boop beep

You cannot use that SSD it's too small for WoW. You wouldn't be able to patch and running so close to
capacitance is not good.
boop boop beep

Eh, I was going for a cheap SSD with roughly the right amount of storage. You're right on all counts, considering we'd lose capacity to formatting, and running close to capacitance isn't good. That doesn't mean we couldn't work with it, but that would entail symbolic links, having the majority of your wow folder on your regular hard drive, moving the data folder over to the SSD, and then making/maintaining a link to the folder on the SSD. It's doable, and the link isn't hard to maintain. However when I did it I had a problem with the link breaking every time I patched.


So without the SSD and just getting the GPU/PSU we're under budget! Huzzah!

[Cluch]

Wow Sajuuk,

First, Thank you very much for you time. I really do appreciate it. Your answers were exactly what I was looking for.

Although, I never thought of the maybe an SSD drive. I really do like the idea. I've read a post or two, maybe more, that was the single biggest performance boosting upgrade people have made. Which obviously really intrigues me. I think I had a preconceived price point of $150 + for even something small. Apparently not the case.

I don't know why. But, I've always thought the video card was the problem maybe because of it being built into the Mobo. I really like the price of the video card you found. You mentioned it was a generation back, would there be a benefit to a one generation bump (if that even makes sense). I'm not sure where that would be.
http://cgi.ebay.com/XFX-ATI-Radeon-H...item45fa58bc1d
or
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-MSI-nVidia-G...item3f020dd523
Not necessarily exactly those however those were what I was kind of looking at. Low profile not need.

It does seem that the PSU may need some attention. And again, I like your idea of having an extra one around just in case. Did I follow you correctly. Obviously more clients need more power. But would there be an affect from 3 to 5 clients on the actually PSU usage?

Thanks for making a point to keep it in price range. I'm leaniant on that espeically with these upgrades giving me the ability to purchase them over a few weeks or so. I was trying to avoid the $250 card suggestion and "you need a new rig man" one. Those just aren't options for me.

I only linked EBay because I do a lot on there. Although no electronics.

[Uhnknown]

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...-315-_-Product is the video card i use for 4-5 Boxing, lately i have been 5 boxing due to the prices of keys through Blizzard.

I'm running a AMD Athlon II X4 640, 3ghz
4GB DDR3 1600 RAM
Standard 7200 RPM drive(nothing fancy at all)
Dual monitors, Isboxer window layouts. Main window at "fair" settings unless i'm in a big crowded area(City, etc) other windows set to far left of the graphics adjustment bar.
Along with that video card i just linked above, I can manage 12 - 15 fps constantly(/console maxfps 15), unless i rush a Galv turtle in AV or something along those lines.

All in all, if you're on a dead line budget and don't mind 12 - 15 FPS, I can suggest that card, Which is what i use, and i run almost always on 15 FPS.

[flux1]

With that power supply I wouldn't recommend anything over a Radeon 5670 or so. They are about the fastest you can get that don't require an external power connector. The radeon 6670 is slightly faster, but about $25-$30 more and hovers right at $100.

Generally try to avoid nvidia cards now a days if you are power supply constrained as they use more than the radeons of equivalent speed. Personally I got a radeon 5770 a few months ago to use with my 450 watt power supply as I didn't have the cash to buy a new one and the GTX 460 would have pushed me almost to the edge of what the PS can handle.

Either way, it would be a huge upgrade over what you have now, especially if you have been 3 boxing with that system. The CPU should be fine as even my crappy dual core 1.6 ghz amd laptop with radeon 3200 onboard can run 2 copies of the current client with the background fps set low on the second window.

[Cluch]

All in all, if you're on a dead line budget and don't mind 12 - 15 FPS, I can suggest that card, Which is what i use, and i run almost always on 15 FPS.

Thank you. That's exactly the feedback i'm looking for. I don't mind those FPS.

Like I said, I'm trying to get my FPS off the floor without having much money to spend on it.

[Cluch]

Flux1,

Good info. Seems as if the PSU may need to be upgraded.

You'll be amazed, I five boxed two teams to 85 with this setup. But, I hoping this little upgrade will give me a huge improvement from what i'm used to. Maybe see TERRAIN again!!!

Thanks again.

[Apps]

I dont ever recall stating the PWS was maxed out. I believe that was Sajuuks words.

I pointed out the PWS because of the low range compared to the requirements listed by better video cards.

For example: the card Sajuuk suggested, has the following requirements.

System Requirements:
PCI Express based PC is required with one X16 lane graphics slot available on the motherboard 350 Watt or greater power supply recommended (450 Watt for ATI CrossFireX technology in dual mode) Video card may occupy two slots Certified power supplies are recommended Minimum 1GB of system memory Installation software requires CD-ROM drive DVD playback requires DVD drive Blu-ray playback requires Blu-ray drive For an ATI CrossFireX system, a second ATI Radeon HD 5450 graphics card, and ATI CrossFireX Ready motherboard are required Operating System(s): Windows 7 Windows Vista (all versions) Windows XP

...and the Requirements of the Vid card i looked up on ebay, had min requirement of 350W
So, after mocked about the PWS suggestion, its suggested to get a new what? :P

The suggestion of the RAM was because of the 800Mhz. The OP stated he wants to run 2-3 smoother. Of course the processor runs fast, but doesnt the entire system operate as fast as its slowest component? else why suggest a SSD? (not that I disagree mind you, thats actually a good idea).

Definitely not disagreeing with Sajuuk, past his ruggedly and manly exterior, hes probably the best person for advice like this. Simply put, I'd conceed I didnt look at just whats available, rather what will benefit more in the future too.

[Sajuuk]

I dont ever recall stating the PWS was maxed out. I believe that was Sajuuks words.

I pointed out the PWS because of the low range compared to the requirements listed by better video cards.

For example: the card Sajuuk suggested, has the following requirements.


...and the Requirements of the Vid card i looked up on ebay, had min requirement of 350W
So, after mocked about the PWS suggestion, its suggested to get a new what? :P

The suggestion of the RAM was because of the 800Mhz. The OP stated he wants to run 2-3 smoother. Of course the processor runs fast, but doesnt the entire system operate as fast as its slowest component? else why suggest a SSD? (not that I disagree mind you, thats actually a good idea).

Definitely not disagreeing with Sajuuk, past his ruggedly and manly exterior, hes probably the best person for advice like this. Simply put, I'd conceed I didnt look at just whats available, rather what will benefit more in the future too.

...


Fair enough, I guess.

...I still find bold/blue text annoying.