Multiboxing Hardware Science!

[MiRai]

No I'm not say there is any tricks at all, I'm just saying that the 1 percent difference that you show: 19 percent of full gpu load with 15 clients showing on one monitor vs. 18 percent with 1 client showing on the other monitor proves my point, even though you feel that because the are about the same it proves your point.

Sam, it proves my point. Client #1 and Client #15 are identical clients therefore they put out identical loads
and take up identical amounts of VRAM. If that wasn't the case, then the bottom monitor should be reading a
much lower number than it is, because if what you say is true, the other 14 clients aren't being rendered.
You're telling me that 1 single client @ 60 FPS is taking up the same VRAM and putting out the same GPU load
as 15 clients using up a total of 200 FPS at the same resolution? That's retarded...

If your gpu can put out 19,000 fps total for all clients then that 1 percent is 190fps which would prove my point. As the game is putting out 250 total fps with one gpu (60 plus 60 plus 13 X 10) showing 15 tiled clients vs. 60fps with the one client showing. Which is a difference of 190fps

I don't know where you're getting 60 + 60 + 130 from. Out of clients 15 through 30 only #15 is rendering at
60 FPS. If you want to add up the FPS, the top 15 clients it would be 60 + 140 (14 clients x 10 FPS) for a total
of 200 FPS. In your world, the bottom monitor is only rendering 60 FPS yet the VRAM and GPU load match the
top monitor.

I don't belive that they would have the gpu render screens that are not seen, considering they dont waste time rendering objects that can't be seen behind other objects.

This is so ridiculous. You're basically saying that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around... it doesn't
make a sound. Just because you don't see the windows doesn't mean that the characters don't see the world
around them. If what you are saying is true... then the slave characters would never be able to assist the main
character if their screens weren't showing because they wouldn't be able to see what they should be assisting
and would receive the error "You have no target."

EDIT: I made another video for you.

Important Information:

• Client #1 has higher video settings than Client #2
• Client #1 is located in the tunnel to Orgrimmar looking at the ground
  
• Client #2 is located in the Night Elf starting area
  
• Client #1 is rendering at 60FPS foreground and background
• Client #2 is rendering at 10FPS foreground and background
• The inactive window sits behind the active window
  

Now, because both clients have different video settings each window should take up different amounts of
VRAM, however, as you can clearly see in the video... the VRAM doesn't change when I swap windows. Also,
both clients are rendering at different framerates which affects the load on the GPU, however, as you can
clearly see in the video... the GPU load does not deviate more than 2% from the reading at the beginning of
the video.

All game windows that aren't minimized, whether in the foreground or background, are rendered
at all times.

Is there anything else I can do for you Sam?

[Sam DeathWalker]

The amount of of ram isnt going to change it allocates the space.

Maybe we are hung up a bit on the word "render". To me render means that the gpu does all the calculations needed to display a full frame. It has to determine which objects are in front of each other, the lighting, the character and world textures etc.

Everything except rendering is always done for all clients, postion of characters, loading the textures of nearby characters, movement exptrapolatioin, etc.

Lets say a weightlifter(gpu) can lift 1000lbs. At 1000lbs he is at 100percent(zgpu shows 100), at 500lbs he is at 50percent, at 100lbs his zgpu shows 10percent.

You design a test that has him lift 2lbs vs. 10lbs and say that "10 lbs is FIVE times 2lbs". Surely his zgpu will show a difference of FIVE times because when he lifts 10lbs he is doing FIVE times the work of lifting 2lbs.

Lifting 2 lbs shows his zgpu at 1 percent because the zgpu only measures in single percentages 2/1000 is rounded up to 1percent for display purposes.
Lifting 10 lbs shows his zgpu also at 1 percent because 10/1000 is in fact 1 percent.

The zgpu reading is the same for both (1 percent) yet one test was 5 times the other test. Thus you conclude that because the zgpu reading is 1 percent for both that he must be doing the same work (10lbs and 2lbs) 12lbs both times.

Notice that when you ran two clients in the 2nd test you are at 12 or so percent and with 15 clients tiled you are at 19 or so percent.

Why isn't running 15 clients using seven times as much gpu load as two clients?




Let me ask you this, after the gpu renders the display that you see its sent to the display monitor. Where does the GPU put the rendered frame from the background when its done rendering the full screen? How many frames does it save? If you were writing the program would you render background data?

If what you are saying is true... then the slave characters would never be able to assist the main
character if their screens weren't showing because they wouldn't be able to see what they should be assisting
and would receive the error "You have no target."

You're characters arn't real people ... Position data is calculated (not rendered) for all clients at all times. Knowing that the leader is at coodenate 1021, 938 and is moving say in the X direction at 30 per second then your computer uses that informaiton to calculate his postion untill the server sends new information, thats all that is needed for position data.

You don't have to "see" his textures to follow him, if you know his location in the world. Thats why you get character running forward when ping lag dosnt allow your computer to get server data to update the characters position. Then when the information fromt the server comes in the character snaps back to the server position.

All the visual informationo is client side the server just sends poitional data, what the characters are and what they are wearing etc. how much damage they took and just minimal information. Your computer then takes taht minimal information and builds it into a world. The server probably dosnt even render any of the world even server side, but it does all the positional calculations and damage and all taht.

[MiRai]

Notice that when you ran two clients in the 2nd test you are at 12 or so percent and with 15 clients tiled you are at 19 or so percent.

Why isn't running 15 clients using seven times as much gpu load as two clients?

Because it was the login screen Sam. I could load up 150 login screens but I wouldn't be able to load 150
characters into the game world because there's much, much more going on in the game world.

Sam, I do not understand any of your examples or math but, how about a simple question...

How come I can successfully FRAPS a game window that is behind another game window?

I await your answer...

[Sam DeathWalker]

Ok that might be a good test. Make 10 clients on one gpu.

Set all to 60fps forground and background (all 10 at 60fps all the time) and full ultra including max multisampling (make sure you only using one gpu, if you have a 2nd card in disable its driver in device manager). Have 9 tiles in background (3X3) and one tile full screen forground. Have all look at something in the distance not at ground, a crowed place is better but not necessary. Do not send the background to a second monitor (of course if you send outputs to a 2nd monitor it will be rendered). Have only one active gpu and one active monitor.

Bring the one tile to the full screen forground hiding all others in the background. Make sure fraps is off completly (check process in the task manager). Do a SS and see what gpu load is. Swap the windows and bring the 9 tiles to the forground (is that possible?) and the one client to the background take SS and see what the gpu load is (memory means nothing).

Then do the exact same test except with fraps recording the background only (not the forground). SS with the one client in the forground and fraps recording in background, then 2nd SS (showing gpu load) with 9 clients in forground and 1 client in background with fraps again only recording the background.

Those 4 gpu load figues should give us the answer.

If they are the same in both sets compared to the other in the same set and the first set is a bit lower then the 2nd set (cause fraps gonna take up a bit) then you are right. I.E.

GPU load:

1 (no fraps 1 client forground) 38percent
2 (no fraps 9 client in forground) 38percnet
3 (fraps 1 client forground) 42percent
4 (fraps 9 client forground) 42percnet

If we see something like that you are correct.

Of course wow will render both the forground and the background if the forground goes to one display and the background goes to another display.

[MiRai]

Ok that might be a good test. Make 10 clients on one gpu.

Set all to 60fps forground and background and full ultra including max multisampling (make sure you only using one gpu,

I think you're completely mistaken as to how powerful you believe a single GTX 580 is or how much CPU &
GPU Ultra w/ MSAA requires. I can't even run 5 clients @ 60/30 FPS using the Ultra preset and no MSAA
(x1). Why your test requires super maximum video settings is beyond me. I mean... why don't I just go into
the nVidia control panel and increase all those settings to max as well so I can have Ultra++++ settings
across 10 clients? What more is that going to prove rather than keeping the clients at Fair or Low settings?

I'm done with all of this and I will not be running anymore of your tests in an attempt to help you believe
what I say is true. It's unfortunate that you can't see where I'm coming from in all of these different tests
and that isn't my problem. Why don't you run some tests of your own?

The last test that I FRAPS'd which was the Tedrassil/Orgrimmar test with two characters in two completely
different zones. The character in Orgrimmar had 60 FPS at all times and the character in Teldrassil had 10
FPS at all times. FPS affects the GPU load as anyone can see by using GPU-Z and changing their FPS in real
time.

You Believe: If a window cannot be seen because it is hidden behind another window then it is not being
rendered and that only the top window (out of how many ever are stacked on top of each other) affects the
total FPS that is being rendered/used by the GPU.

I logged in the same characters from that same test but only one at a time and both characters' single
window GPU-Z readings were... wait for it ...much, much lower than the 234MB VRAM / 13% GPU load
readings from the video. Why? Because the GPU renders all game windows that aren't minimized.

Why can I successfully FRAPS a game window that sits behind another game window? Because the GPU
renders all the game windows that aren't minimized.

I keep saying "that aren't minimized" because here's a little test you can run on your own. Try to FRAPS a
single game window and minimize it, give it a few seconds, and then unminimize it. Play that video back and
you can see that the video freezes in place during the time it was minimized. Why? Because the GPU isn't
rendering that window anymore because it's minimized. You can even watch the GPU load drop when you
minimize a window because it isn't being rendered anymore in its minimized state.

When on the flip side, in my last video, jumping between game windows did not affect the GPU load. The
2% that the GPU load did fluctuate was most likely because of people passing through the Orgrimmar tunnel
and the GPU had to... wait for it again ...render those people even though they were in the background
window!

To all of the readers of this thread: I hope these last few page have been fun and exciting for all of you who
do read and keep up with this thread. Hopefully, your tubs of popcorn are not near the bottom because I'm
sure this thread will continue to experience more excitement in the future.

[Sam DeathWalker]

I think you're completely mistaken as to how powerful you believe a single GTX 580 is or how much CPU &
GPU Ultra w/ MSAA requires. I can't even run 5 clients @ 60/30 FPS using the Ultra preset and no MSAA
(x1). Why your test requires super maximum video settings is beyond me. I mean... why don't I just go into
the nVidia control panel and increase all those settings to max as well so I can have Ultra++++ settings
across 10 clients? What more is that going to prove rather than keeping the clients at Fair or Low settings?

Prior test were usless because the gpu was not being stressed at all. I just picked some high stuff at random as it seems like the 580 was just to strong, any setting that use like 80 or so percent of the gpu load is fine.

Why can I successfully FRAPS a game window that sits behind another game window? Because the GPU
renders all the game windows that aren't minimized

FRAPS itself might require the window to be rendered thats why my test is run with fraps on and with fraps off.

Just as if you have two monitors and send background to one and forground to the other even if one is turned off your gpu will still render whats being sent to it..

Ill have to run some tests myself. Obvisouly if what I say is true then gpu load with one client should be the same as gpu load with 10 clients (if nine are all in the background). Should not be that difficult to test properly.



Ok I did a test. And anyone can do this with their computer its easy enough.

Two Clients. Set the FPS back and forground to 100 on both. Set DX9 or 11 the same on both.

1st Client. Full Ultra with 8 X multisampling stand in the center of the area and look far.

2nd Client. Low with 1 X multisampling stand against the wall looking into it.

When I show the 1st client I am at like 80ish gpu load, when I show the 2nd client I am at 50ish gpu load.

BUT THIS ONLY WORKS IF BOTH HAVE "FULLSCREEN" checked.

If you check "windowed" or "windowed fullscreen" it will probably render the background.

Keep in mind your computer will change the fps to try and compensate and of course as fps goes down so does gpu load. Probably it might be best to set both at 20 or 30 whatever causes the 1st client to get like 90 percent or so.


Thats not to say that Fenril was in any way wrong, probably he never runs with "fullscreen" checked in all clients (in fact IsBoxer might not allow that when tiled).

[MiRai]

Ok I did a test. And anyone can do this with their computer its easy enough.

Two Clients. Set the FPS back and forground to 100 on both. Set DX9 or 11 the same on both.

1st Client. Full Ultra with 8 X multisampling stand in the center of the area and look far.

2nd Client. Low with 1 X multisampling stand against the wall looking into it.

When I show the 1st client I am at like 80ish gpu load, when I show the 2nd client I am at 50ish gpu load.

BUT THIS ONLY WORKS IF BOTH HAVE "FULLSCREEN" checked.

If you check "windowed" or "windowed fullscreen" it will probably render the background.

Why are you testing in Fullscreen mode? Is that is how me multibox? Is that how anyone around here plays
multiple clients on one machine? In Fullscreen mode? No, they don't. When one fullscreen window is in
focus... everything else can be considered to be in a minimized state hence the reason why that one game
window hijacks the entire computer.

Thats not to say that Fenril was in any way wrong, probably he never runs with "fullscreen" checked in all clients (in fact IsBoxer might not allow that when tiled).

No, Sam I don't. No one plays in Fullscreen because you can't tile windows in Fullscreen. It's been like that
since the beginning of multiboxing time. I have no idea why you don't know this since you do, in fact, tile game
windows yourself.