Are KeyClones Round Robin keys legal in WoW?

[elo]

But... the world is flat... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

[Narcoz]

It is absolutely nothing like the automation we saw pre v2.0 macro and
lua rewrite and for you to cast aspersion on the legality of KeyClone
while pushing the fact you have a competing offering in your very first
post just stinks to me....

(since you sound a little bit upset, have in mind English is a second language to me. I'll try to describe my standpoint the best I can)

My "offering" you say? Which "offering" would that be? I shared my own scripts (that are completely free) for 2 purposes: 1) They might be useful for someone else 2) Someone might improve on them and post back better functionality.

I might be guilty of making the subject a bit dramatic, but I wanted to get CloneKey users view on this (and I even got a very good answer). Now with this information i plan to go ahead and implement something "Round Robin:ish" just as I said in the first post.

And I didn't even question the legality of KeyClone at all, just a single function in it and its use with the WoW-game. Since KeyClone might be used for several games and other games might have totally different rules (or ToS) I cannot grasp how you can make this sound like I'm against keyclone? Hypoteticly: You could perfectly well use KeyClone with WoW and just not enable one specific function in it if that function was against the WoW-ToS, right?

PS: My scripts are not an alternate offering. KeyClone seems to be a complete product for anyone that want's to get up and running fast. My scripts are a hack that ppl can tinker with if they like and they only support 1 config right now with 2 computers. KeyClone seems to be THE software and you can connect any number of computers etc, good config gui and stuff.

My intention was never to make you or anybody else upset, I just wanted to have an mature discussion about the level of automation of one function in a related piece of software.

[Narcoz]

i envy these people... their world must be so much fun... walking
through it, totally mystified by just about everything. then trying to
explain to others how the world must be flat...

If you mean that I'm one of "these people" (I assume so, because I'm the original poster) why do you say this about me? I have no clue, why my question on a hobby forum for discussing multi-boxing issues was so out of line that I'm a person that think that the earth is flat :/ (I assume it's some way in English of saying my intellect is broken or something).

[Tehtsuo]

Aww, everyone play nice. Wilbur gave the right answer, and Narcoz understood it. It doesn't sound like he's trying to bust anyone's balls. I don't think Keyclone or Knytestorme were trying to put you down Narcoz. They're just referring to some posts we get from people not interested in taking part in our community. You seem to have been asking a legitimate question and seem happy you got a legitimate answer. Hats off to ya!

Kumbaya.... 8)

[Boom]

Ok we're overreacting a bit here gang...

The OP had a very good point, and your love of Keyclone (Which I hold as well) is leading to unfounded speculation and accusations. (most big words ever in a sentence by Boom.)

We are always walking a fine line as Multiboxers. You can NOT deny that by playing 5 accounts at once, gives you a huge advantage over your next door neighbor who can't afford to pay for more than one. Period. WoW is so far ok with this. We love it, but the line is fine.

So when Blizz openly tells us it doesn't want software making decisions for us, the Round Robin feature becomes a valid concern.

I agree, that due to simple macro functions (,,spell,,) this makes Round Robin initially sound trivial. But you're not looking at the big picture here.

First off, we are not the norm. Blizz didn't design the macro system to allow players to coordinate spell-stepping among multiple players. But it works that way for us because we control multiple players at once. Round Robin is a very STUPID AI. But it's an AI none-the-less. Because I have it, I don't have to remember which of my 5 players should Earthshock next... while anyone playing one toon with others, has to work that out themselves. (think Tranq Shot rotations in the old days or interrupt rotations today with Shade of Aran)

So don't be so quick to wail on this kid's junk. I totally see why he'd be concerned about this.

For now, I don't think we have to worry, but I don't want harsh attitudes to discourage discussions like this in the future.

Thanks,

Boom

[Knytestorme]

Ok we're overreacting a bit here gang...

The OP had a very good point, and your love of Keyclone (Which I hold as well) is leading to unfounded speculation and accusations. (most big words ever in a sentence by Boom.)

No he never, he decided, for absolutely no reason (so he claims, but why post in the very first line about his own scripts) to post one of his first posts on the site that nearly everyone is pointed to (including from the WoW forums in threads about how bad boxing is) questioning the software most associated with boxing and implicitly giving more ammunition to the anti-boxing crowd

We are always walking a fine line as Multiboxers. You can NOT deny that by playing 5 accounts at once, gives you a huge advantage over your next door neighbor who can't afford to pay for more than one. Period. WoW is so far ok with this. We love it, but the line is fine.

Yes I can, I dont play on a pvp server and I dont pvp with my multi-box crew on my pve server in any way. What I do has no impact on anyone on my server except I dont need to see them for anything except the rare plans/cuts from raid zones. If zones weren't instanced you may have a point but since they are I can go a whole day without seeing anyone else, so who am I having an advantage over. Add to that I make about $20k a year more than my neighbour, of course I deserve an advantage over them in every facet of life...if they dont like it, they can get motivated and go make more money for themselves.

So when Blizz openly tells us it doesn't want software making decisions for us, the Round Robin feature becomes a valid concern.

I agree, that due to simple macro functions (,,spell,,) this makes Round Robin initially sound trivial. But you're not looking at the big picture here.

And that is where it ends. Blizzard reworked the macro system to get rid of the activity they didnt like and have since said that keyboard multiplexing is fine, can even create macro's on things like the G15 as long as they dont do anything the ingame macro system can do. If a function of keyclone, hotkeynet, ahk, whatever meremly replicates an internal system without added automation blizzard dont care, they have said so..the end..no need for this thread in any way shape or form, and that is the crux of my issue with it....it tries to insinuate something about the software and what we do that is counter to what Blizzard have already said and serves no other purpose than to give ammunition to those against boxing to claim that even multi-boxers think they (or the software) are exploiting.

First off, we are not the norm. Blizz didn't design the macro system to allow players to coordinate spell-stepping among multiple players. But it works that way for us because we control multiple players at once. Round Robin is a very STUPID AI. But it's an AI none-the-less. Because I have it, I don't have to remember which of my 5 players should Earthshock next... while anyone playing one toon with others, has to work that out themselves. (think Tranq Shot rotations in the old days or interrupt rotations today with Shade of Aran)

No they never, but they did design the castsequence function to cast a sequence of spells or abilities one after the other following a keypress for each spell, there is no effective difference to it....the same way as hunters can create a castsequence macro to handweave shots and in the hunter raid channel have the classleader call when to hit the tran_shot key.

So don't be so quick to wail on this kid's junk. I totally see why he'd be concerned about this.

So do I, but I doubt we see the same reasons :/

[Wilbur]

STOP FUCKING OVER-REACTING YOU FUCKING FUCKERS.

[Narcoz]

No he never, he decided, for absolutely no reason (so he claims, but
why post in the very first line about his own scripts) to post one of
his first posts on the site that nearly everyone is pointed to
(including from the WoW forums in threads about how bad boxing is)
questioning the software most associated with boxing and implicitly
giving more ammunition to the anti-boxing crowd

1) I mentioned my own scripts because it was part of my motivation why I wanted to discuss the legality of this function. I though it was neat but I wanted to have a serious discussion about this so that we could in some way conclude the level of (indeed very very basic) automation. After I got a good answer (which showed that you can actually achieve the same by scripting the WoW macros) I felt that the discussion was over for my part.

2) I think that the fact that we discuss matters like this shows any observator or outside person that we indeed care a lot about being within the limitations of the ToS. At least I seriously am, and thats why I wanted this discussion.

3) Do you really think that sweeping uncomfortable (for some) matters under the rug makes things better for the community? Wouldn't that paint us as shady?

Yes I can, I dont play on a pvp server and I dont pvp with my multi-box
crew on my pve server in any way. What I do has no impact on anyone on
my server except I dont need to see them for anything except the rare
plans/cuts from raid zones.

I play on a PvE server also. I have before played 95% of the time on PvP servers but I decided to go PvE for the multi-boxing just because i didn't want to cause "I got ganked by the big bad multi-boxer, Plz Blizz NERF!"-attitudes from people.

Regardless of how we "impact" out realm its important that we (as a community) do our best to follow the rules. We are so few that one multi-boxer probably might destroy the reputation of multi-boxing on most of one realm by behaving bad.

I just started this friday, and I must say that the general public seams positive to multi-boxing. I try to be positive all the time. I buff people that i meet and help them out if they need it. I think this is the right way of making the public positive about it. To win the general populations "Heart and Minds".

edit: spelling

[keyclone]

@Narcoz
sorry about jumping on you... this issue has been beaten to death on the wow forums. just mention it on a thread and people go crazy.

that... and i hadn't had any coffee yet...

i'm off now to eat some humble pie...

[Boom]

To my friend Knytestorme... (just a friendly reminder that we're on the same team... or the same wall of text depending on how you see it.)

No he never, he decided, for absolutely no reason (so he claims, but why post in the very first line about his own scripts) to post one of his first posts on the site that nearly everyone is pointed to (including from the WoW forums in threads about how bad boxing is) questioning the software most associated with boxing and implicitly giving more ammunition to the anti-boxing crowd

I think you're overreacting to this. (not nearly as bad as Wilbur does, but he's nuts.) He didn't intend to "trick" anyone into using his free script. His OP actually states the opposite. He says "Hey, this is my script I use, but I want to move UP to keyclone". He asked a question. He DID NOT make a statement. This is not ammunition for the anti-boxing crowd.

Yes I can, I dont play on a pvp server and I dont pvp with my multi-box crew on my pve server in any way. What I do has no impact on anyone on my server except I dont need to see them for anything except the rare plans/cuts from raid zones. If zones weren't instanced you may have a point but since they are I can go a whole day without seeing anyone else, so who am I having an advantage over. Add to that I make about $20k a year more than my neighbour, of course I deserve an advantage over them in every facet of life...if they dont like it, they can get motivated and go make more money for themselves.

You need to, again, look outside your own box. No one will eventually judge multiboxing based purely on what "Knytestorme" as a player does. This community is about all of us. Including those who never leave instances, and those who cause mass-hysteria with 82-2 Arena records. (GO ELLAY!)

Your attitude of "Make more money if you want more money" is a fantastic one. I'm going to apply it to my life today! However, Blizzard doesn't care about your life philosophies or economic policies. Which is why they don't allow purchasing gold. So again, great idea. But the opinion we're worried about here, belongs to Blizzard. And Blizzard doesn't like power going to the financially gifted. (however, they don't mind rewarding those with more TIME or SKILL on their hands. Go figure.)

And that is where it ends. Blizzard reworked the macro system to get rid of the activity they didnt like and have since said that keyboard multiplexing is fine, can even create macro's on things like the G15 as long as they dont do anything the ingame macro system can do. If a function of keyclone, hotkeynet, ahk, whatever meremly replicates an internal system without added automation blizzard dont care, they have said so..the end..no need for this thread in any way shape or form, and that is the crux of my issue with it....it tries to insinuate something about the software and what we do that is counter to what Blizzard have already said and serves no other purpose than to give ammunition to those against boxing to claim that even multi-boxers think they (or the software) are exploiting.

Don't mean to sound like a broken record, but think deep. The reason we talk about these things is not just to determine current legality, but to explore possible futures. Sure enough, today Blizzard has said "here is our macro system. Enjoy" AND "keyboard multiplexing are fine". However, Blizzard makes changes to their system every day, based on unforeseen consequences of one policy, when mixed up with another. This could happen to us, hence we discuss it. That's it.

No they never, but they did design the castsequence function to cast a sequence of spells or abilities one after the other following a keypress for each spell, there is no effective difference to it....the same way as hunters can create a castsequence macro to handweave shots and in the hunter raid channel have the classleader call when to hit the tran_shot key.

Now you're back onto the original issue, so I'll follow you. You just pointed out exactly what the OP was worried about. Without multiboxing you need to use human communication and decisions to organize rotation between toons. The macro system DOES NOT do this for you. But because we multibox, we SIDE STEP a player decision making process, necessary for those who don't multibox.

This decision making process is the absolute most simple one I can think of (ie. first toon1, then toon2, etc.) but it's worth discussing at every level.

I'll say it again. I'm not worried about this right now, anymore than you are Knytestorme, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it. (we're actually very lucky we have people like Keyclone who is dedicated to thinking about these things each time he makes a new release)

So do I, but I doubt we see the same reasons :/

I assure you, I'm not trying to be rude Knytestorme. I just feel your paranoia is doing more damage than any mature conversation we could have here on the forums. He's not trying to trick us into using his free script. I promise you. He immediately accepted our feedback, and agreed that this isn't an issue after other members politely explained the system to him.

Boom

PS. Hey Keyclone. If I were you, and had literally hundreds of people bashing my baby every day, I'd be on a pretty thin edge myself.